Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

[Senator Palmer]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

I just had to thrown this in. I am absolutely in love with your sig, tlc12576!

This is why I can't accept the excuses, because I know what Madden could be.

"So many developers out there tend to ignore their franchise modes for years on end. At 2K, we realize this is where you spend the majority of your time, so we are constantly working to improve the experience year-over-year."
Erick Boenisch
- a.k.a. SimBaller

[ryan36]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

Competition would make EA make a better game. The things that are broken, would be slightly more fixed. I think we're talking the difference between a B- and B+ game.

Yes, if the dev team is already idiots and incapable of making a good game, then they would not be better even with competition. I do not believe this to be the case. I believe this dev team with what they want to do are slogging through sewage trying to pan for gold. They can get it done, but not with the antiquated code from prior lame builds.

I believe competition would cause more resources to be funneled into Madden's hands, and the whole "we don't have time" thing would be blown out the window. Maybe even a new build. Who knows?

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

It's like this, if I make my living selling coffee and someone opens a shop next door which offers better tasting coffee at a lower price, I have to adjust what I'm doing. I have to change my coffee, my price, offer free donuts, put my baristas in bikinis...something in order to stay in business. I'm "forced" to improve or go out of business.

If someone opens a coffee shop next door with higher prices, crappy coffee and terrible service...then my coffee shop suddenly seems a whole lot better to the customers. They stop complaining about the things I do wrong because my shop is better than my competitions.

Either way, the customers are happier than they were when my shop was the only choice. My last sentence was talking about this phenomena.

I totally understand the analogy, but it isn't totally relevant.

There are many things that said coffee shop could do to stay in business. They could lower prices, as you said. Advertise. They could even change their business model to do more than offer coffee. None of that is relevant to Tiburon making a better game.

The coffee shop could get better beans, IF they have access to them and can afford them. They could use different ingredients, IF they have access to them and can afford them. In essence, if they are able to make the coffee taste better, then they could. I say could, but they don't have to and they aren't forced to. If they can't make it taste better, then they can't and they will either use some other means to try and stay in business, like cut prices, or they go out of business. That is a choice too isn't it?

No one can force Tiburon to make a better game, but Tiburon, and unlike the coffee shop, they don't have the luxury of cutting prices or doing certain other things the coffee shop can. But that concerns the staying in business and generating more sales revenue aspect. That has nothing to do with making a better game.

If they are capable of making a better game, then maybe someday they will. If they aren't then they never will. What competition does will NEVER change that variable. Comp might put them out of business, but it will never make them do something that they are not CAPABLE of doing.

Does that make any sense to anyone, or am I in the Twilight Zone lol?

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

Competition would make EA make a better game. The things that are broken, would be slightly more fixed. I think we're talking the difference between a B- and B+ game.

Yes, if the dev team is already idiots and incapable of making a good game, then they would not be better even with competition. I do not believe this to be the case. I believe this dev team with what they want to do are slogging through sewage trying to pan for gold. They can get it done, but not with the antiquated code from prior lame builds.

I believe competition would cause more resources to be funneled into Madden's hands, and the whole "we don't have time" thing would be blown out the window. Maybe even a new build. Who knows?

I must be in the Twilight Zone lol.

Whether you believe that they are capable or not of making a better game, is just that. A belief. You are stating something as a given, based off of a supposition.

There are no guarantees that Madden gets better just because of comp. There is also nothing to preclude them from making a better game with no comp. If they can, someday they may. If they can't, then they never will.

Not any more complicated than that.

[lofeazy]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

I must be in the Twilight Zone lol.

Whether you believe that they are capable or not of making a better game, is just that. A belief. You are stating something as a given, based off of a supposition.

There are no guarantees that Madden gets better just because of comp. There is also nothing to preclude them from making a better game with no comp. If they can, someday they may. If they can't, then they never will.

Not any more complicated than that.

This is so true.(Just because you can program a computer dosen't make you a video game programer.)

If the madden team knew how to they would have made a better game then 2k5 by now.

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

This is so true.(Just because you can program a computer dosen't make you a video game programer.)

If madden team knew how to they would have made a better game then 2k5 by now.

You're bringing up an argument that I'm not making. While I have gone on record as saying that I don't think that Tiburon is capable of making a game that I consider stellar, that has nothing to do with what I am saying.

I am not saying that if they could have made a good game they would have by now. Again, I accept the possibility that they haven't been doing all they can to make the game stellar to this point, because they don't really have to to get great sales numbers. They may be less than what they were, and the exclusive deal may cut into the profit margins more than previously, but make no mistake, selling 4mil plus copies of a game is still a great number. At least on the surface. So I will agree that it is possible that if there is comp, that EA/Tiburon might "try harder". But what I am saying is that "trying harder" will not NECESSARILY result in a better game. It might. It might not.

"Trying harder" could result in them making improvements or even changes for the better. But "trying harder" could also result in them trying to make improvements, and making things worse in other areas, or making changes for the worse. This is what people aren't getting. This is why comp doesn't "guarantee" a better game, because increased effort and increased resources does not ALWAYS translate into something positive.

It is entirely possible to make a bad game while increasing resources or "trying harder." Because of this, even if comp puts a metaphorical boot to EA/Tiburon's ***, you are not any more assured of getting a great game than if they were doing the minimum.

If you put a gun to my head and "force" me to recite the Gettysburg Address, word for word, I will do it, if I know it (provided I don't forget it from being literally under the gun lol). If I don't, I won't. The gun being aimed at my head or not, isn't going to make me magically know the Address, if I don't already.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

I must be in the Twilight Zone lol.

Whether you believe that they are capable or not of making a better game, is just that. A belief. You are stating something as a given, based off of a supposition.

There are no guarantees that Madden gets better just because of comp. There is also nothing to preclude them from making a better game with no comp. If they can, someday they may. If they can't, then they never will.

Not any more complicated than that.

You're missing my point. Tiburon doesn't have to change a thing. It doesn't matter how capable they are. If someone else makes an NFL game, either it's better than madden or it isn't. If it isn't, Madden is suddenly looks a lot more appealing than it has been to its customers because they see what the competition offers. Madden just got better without changing a thing, simply because customers see even worse alternatives.

Without competition, consumers will never be satisfied with what Madden offers because they will always believe the game could be better than what they are getting. Whether or not that really is the case.

[lofeazy]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

You're bringing up an argument that I'm not making. While I have gone on record as saying that I don't think that Tiburon is capable of making a game that I consider stellar, that has nothing to do with what I am saying.

I am not saying that if they could have made a good game they would have by now. Again, I accept the possibility that they haven't been doing all they can to make the game stellar to this point, because they don't don't really have to to get great sales numbers. They may be less than what they were, and the exclusive deal may cut into the profit margins more than previously, but make no mistake, selling 4mil plus copies of a game is still a great number. At least on the surface. So I will agree that it is possible that if there is comp, that EA/Tiburon might "try harder". But what I am saying is that "trying harder" will not NECESSARILY result in a better game. It might. It might not.

"Trying harder" could result in them making improvements or even changes for the better. But "trying harder" could also result in them trying to make improvements, and making things worse in other areas, or making changes for the worse. This is what people aren't getting. This is why comp doesn't "guarantee" a better game, because increased effort and increased resources does not ALWAYS translate into something positive.

It is entirely possible to make a bad game while increasing resources or "trying harder." Because of this, even if comp puts a metaphorical boot to EA/Tiburon's ***, you are not any more assured of getting a great game than if they were doing the minimum.

If you put a gun to my head and "force" me to recite the Gettysburg Address, word for word, I will do it, if I know it (provided I don't forget it from being literally under the gun lol). If I don't, I won't. The gun being aimed at my head or not, isn't going to make me magically know the Address, if I don't already.

I agree with you.I just add my 2 cents in.

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

You're missing my point. Tiburon doesn't have to change a thing. It doesn't matter how capable they are. If someone else makes an NFL game, either it's better than madden or it isn't. If it isn't, Madden is suddenly looks a lot more appealing than it has been to its customers because they see what the competition offers. Madden just got better without changing a thing, simply because customers see even worse alternatives.

Without competition, consumers will never be satisfied with what Madden offers because they will always believe the game could be better than what they are getting. Whether or not that really is the case.

I understand this part of it, and I might even be inclined to agree with this part, but this isn't all that you said.

You also said that competition would "force" EA to make a better game. Or to quote more accurately, "EA would be forced to make a much better game or go the way of NBA Elite." That is the part of your post that I am addressing.

I'm not missing your point at all. You just made more than one. I get both of them. One I agree with on some level, and one I don't agree with on any level.

[roadman]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

You're bringing up an argument that I'm not making. While I have gone on record as saying that I don't think that Tiburon is capable of making a game that I consider stellar, that has nothing to do with what I am saying.

I am not saying that if they could have made a good game they would have by now. Again, I accept the possibility that they haven't been doing all they can to make the game stellar to this point, because they don't don't really have to to get great sales numbers. They may be less than what they were, and the exclusive deal may cut into the profit margins more than previously, but make no mistake, selling 4mil plus copies of a game is still a great number. At least on the surface. So I will agree that it is possible that if there is comp, that EA/Tiburon might "try harder". But what I am saying is that "trying harder" will not NECESSARILY result in a better game. It might. It might not.

"Trying harder" could result in them making improvements or even changes for the better. But "trying harder" could also result in them trying to make improvements, and making things worse in other areas, or making changes for the worse. This is what people aren't getting. This is why comp doesn't "guarantee" a better game, because increased effort and increased resources does not ALWAYS translate into something positive.

It is entirely possible to make a bad game while increasing resources or "trying harder." Because of this, even if comp puts a metaphorical boot to EA/Tiburon's ***, you are not any more assured of getting a great game than if they were doing the minimum.

If you put a gun to my head and "force" me to recite the Gettysburg Address, word for word, I will do it, if I know it (provided I don't forget it from being literally under the gun lol). If I don't, I won't. The gun being aimed at my head or not, isn't going to make me magically know the Address, if I don't already.

I'll go back to last week, deju vu?

Now, back to the real stuff.

I want to ask LT and TLC a question.

With competition, can we all agree that the process to become a better product is enhanced without knowing the outcome? That's not guaranteeing anything about being a better product. We don't know that until the final results are in.

Let's put my profession out there. If I'm a headhunter in a 6 person office, and there is a contest for a trip to Hawaii for the most placed people for the month of December. I'm in second place with one week to go. I have less calls, less contacts and one less placed person than the #1 person. If I want to win this trip, I need to make more calls and more contacts and place at least one more person. I need to get in the office earlier and stay later for this to occur. I enhance my workload by arriving early and staying late to have a chance of beating out the #1 person. I don't know if I will win the contest, but I'm giving it everything I have.

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

I'll go back to last week, deju vu?

Now, back to the real stuff.

I want to ask LT and TLC a question.

With competition, can we all agree that the process to become a better product is enhanced without knowing the outcome? That's not guaranteeing anything about being a better product. We don't know that until the final results are in.

Let's put my profession out there. If I'm a headhunter in a 6 person office, and there is a contest for a trip to Hawaii for the most placed people for the month of December. I'm in second place with one week to go. I have less calls, less contacts and one less placed person than the #1 person. If I want to win this trip, I need to make more calls and more contacts and place at least one more person. I need to get in the office earlier and stay later for this to occur. I enhance my workload by arriving early and staying late to have a chance of beating out the #1 person. I don't know if I will win the contest, but I'm giving it everything I have.

I can't agree with the first bolded part, because I'm not a mind reader. You would either be asking me to read the devs and the suits minds and know that they are thinking, "I'm not putting any effort into this game because there is no comp and I don't have to." Either that or you would be asking me to guess whether the games current state is because of lack of motivation, or lack of talent. I don't know how I could do that, and I don't know how anyone else can either. And if I did, I would just be perpetrating the same fallacy of causation as many of the posters are.

I do know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there are games, that I would consider to be terrible, that are produced, all while having competition, so there is no other logical thought process to make, other than that competition does not guarantee that Madden will all of sudden be great, just because it has comp.

As for the last bolded part of your post, you are making my point for me. You could make 10 times the phone calls as the person in front. You could stay late every night while he or she leaves at 2:00pm, and you still are not guaranteed to win the contest, even if you had been trying from the very beginning. In essence, the contest didn't do anything but make you motivated to work harder. It didn't guarantee you a positive result, ie actually winning the contest, in the slightest. Maybe comp will make EA/Tiburon "give it all they have", but if all they have ain't good enough, then what? You can guess that they do have what it takes, but that's just a guess.

I'm sorry you're feeling deja vu, but I have said that I would drop it with you lol.

[tlc12576]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

I'll go back to last week, deju vu?

Now, back to the real stuff.

I want to ask LT and TLC a question.

With competition, can we all agree that the process to become a better product is enhanced without knowing the outcome? That's not guaranteeing anything about being a better product. We don't know that until the final results are in.

Let's put my profession out there. If I'm a headhunter in a 6 person office, and there is a contest for a trip to Hawaii for the most placed people for the month of December. I'm in second place with one week to go. I have less calls, less contacts and one less placed person than the #1 person. If I want to win this trip, I need to make more calls and more contacts and place at least one more person. I need to get in the office earlier and stay later for this to occur. I enhance my workload by arriving early and staying late to have a chance of beating out the #1 person. I don't know if I will win the contest, but I'm giving it everything I have.

No. That is speculative, like LT was saying. Nobody knows what effect competition might have on the process for making Madden. It could somehow cause EA to decide to stop making the game all together and that wouldn't be enhancing it. What we all should agree on is that competition = choice, not improvement. Improvement is a possiblity with competition or without competition but so is regression, cancellation, innovation or stagnation, for the MaddenNation! (Sorry, I had a Jesse Jackson moment, LOL).

[ryan36]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

If you put a gun to my head and "force" me to recite the Gettysburg Address, word for word, I will do it, if I know it (provided I don't forget it from being literally under the gun lol). If I don't, I won't. The gun being aimed at my head or not, isn't going to make me magically know the Address, if I don't already.

Pics or it didn't happen

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

Pics or it didn't happen

Lol, sorry, but after I recited the Address, he stole my iPhone. He had a gun you know lol?

[Rashad19]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

No. That is speculative, like LT was saying. Nobody knows what effect competition might have on the process for making Madden. It could somehow cause EA to decide to stop making the game all together and that wouldn't be enhancing it. What we all should agree on is that competition = choice, not improvement. Improvement is a possiblity with competition or without competition but so is regression, cancellation, innovation or stagnation, for the MaddenNation! (Sorry, I had a Jesse Jackson moment, LOL).

TLC...your post literally had me cracking up at my desk! That Jesse Jackson moment was classic.