When John Madden Speaks, Game Designers Listen w/ Video

[zeroice]

im more concerned with the financial status of EA. Layoffs , studios closing, and massive sales drops.xmas is coming however i dont think it will rebound that much. I hope Madden returns to the greatness and we can finally put to res tthe 2k5 argument even though strange enough it is still very valid

[rangerrick012]

Well gameplanning is a good idea, I just think the execution wasn't the best in M11. He does have a point that every coach doesn't go into the game w/ 300 plays, and teams run the same play from different sets more often than most people think.

[vln13]

It's great that Madden is working with them, but don't get too excited. He did the same thing last year, and though the gameplay was much improved, most people thought it was a disappointing offering. That is how Gameflow happened and the reason they got Gus Johnson, one positive and one kinda negative.

[bigsmallwood]

I love John Madden the man, but whomever is in charge of getting things done for EA with Madden the game needs to to really overhaul the series to match the real thing. Presentation+STRONG gameplay+Great features=Happy NFL Gamers

[Senator Palmer]

Re: When John Madden Speaks, Game Designers Listen w/ Video

as far as shotgun goes should should be able to qb audible from undercenter to shotgun or vice versa

Say this again so everyone can hear it.

There is nary a pass play in an NFL playbook that can't be tweaked to run out of the gun or under center.

[Segagendude]

Re: When John Madden Speaks, Game Designers Listen w/ Video

Meh, Madden can consult till he's blue in the face.

Either his ideas aren't put into the game, or they're implemented poorly.

I'm playing the wait and see game from here on out. No more first day buys.

[KingV2k3]

Re: When John Madden Speaks, Game Designers Listen w/ Video

I'm happy to see that Madden is involved...

His input on the "spread" O trend in the NFL, bubble screens, etc. as well as his focus on line play are all very worthwhile aspects to make the devs accountable for...

I'd love to see them put him back on the cover and make the focus a "return to realism" approach...

That was his / their original mission statement...

Now, if we could only get him to get them to focus on single player offline franchise...

[lofeazy]

Re: When John Madden Speaks, Game Designers Listen w/ Video

To kind of piggyback of Madden's suggestion of calling 2 plays in the huddle:

We should limit audibles and hot routes dramatically. I think line protection calls should stay, but being able to essentially create hundreds of plays at the LOS isn't realistic at all. The time it takes to communicate changes and the possibility of mistakes are both factors not addressed right now.

I understand "hot routing" to a HOT ROUTE, but not creating whole route concepts on the fly every single play.

Right now, we can call about 10 different plays in the huddle without hot routes, his 2 play idea would be going backwards and taking away that excessive amount of options to the offense. Imagine how much more effective blitzes could be on defense if it was actually difficult to check out of an undesirable play. You see NFL teams call time-outs all the time because the defense shows them something they don't like. They don't simply draw a new play in the turf and beat it like we do right now.

Madden makes it too easy to counter defenses after seeing the defense. The offense should have to but more weight into their initial playcall. I've seen tourney gamers base their whole strategy on calling one play at the LOS and audibling to any of their 20 other concepts from there AFTER seeing the D. That's not realistic at all. A powerful way to take that away is do what Madden says: you get 2 to 3 plays. You get 1 hot route, and awareness will make it a risk for low AWR guys. Changing plays should involve more risk, more mistakes. It shouldn't be as foolproof as it is currently.

Thoughts?

This what I been screaming about for years.The offense has to much of an advantage.

[tlc12576]

Re: When John Madden Speaks, Game Designers Listen w/ Video

ARG!!!!!!!!!! The most important aspect of mostly all video games and especially sports ones is game play. Madden's game play MUST improve.

It should be priority 1, 2, and 3.

Presentation is a non factor if people like myself who have been playing Madden 10+ years think the game play is to cheesy to ever enjoy.

I think most people understand and agree that gameplay is the most important aspect of a video game but they work on gameplay EVERY year. Presentation is NOT as important but is an essential part of the immersion factor for the NFL.

You act as if presentation in Madden has been worked on extensively while gameplay is being ignored. We all want them to continue to try to improve gameplay every year but would like to see presentation in the year 2011 at least on the level with NFL games from 2004.

I don't see what is unreasonable about that or why it should frustrate even a gameplay purist.

To kind of piggyback of Madden's suggestion of calling 2 plays in the huddle:

We should limit audibles and hot routes dramatically. I think line protection calls should stay, but being able to essentially create hundreds of plays at the LOS isn't realistic at all. The time it takes to communicate changes and the possibility of mistakes are both factors not addressed right now.

I understand "hot routing" to a HOT ROUTE, but not creating whole route concepts on the fly every single play.

This is what I love to see, simple points that would make a huge difference in realism. This fits right in line with when Ian was saying alot of the pre-snap stuff was not realistic and some people "jumped on him".

This idea makes alot of sense and should also be implemented for the defense. Pre-snap should just be a limited hot route, OL/DL adjustments, offensive/defensive shifting and the one audible play. I said "limited" hot route because the offense should only be allowed to choose ONE "hot" read and adjust that route ONLY, not change every receivers route in the play. That's an audible, not a hot route. LOL

I think all the other stuff people have been asking for like defensive shading. etc, should be done in the playcall screen and/or pregame/pause menu. If Madden adds the ability to see the actual offensive personnel that are in the package to the defense in the playcall screen, like NCAA 11 does, you could adjust your defense in the playcall screen accordingly.

Hearing Madden talk, I can see his influence on the game but seems like some things, sometimes, get lost in translation when implementing them. If this is implemented well, it could translate into more actual on-field execution focus and less play adjustment exploitation like they wanted for Madden 11, without sacrificing any realism.

[Senator Palmer]

Re: When John Madden Speaks, Game Designers Listen w/ Video

We should limit audibles and hot routes dramatically. I think line protection calls should stay,

Madden makes it too easy to counter defenses after seeing the defense. The offense should have to but more weight into their initial playcall. I've seen tourney gamers base their whole strategy on calling one play at the LOS and audibling to any of their 20 other concepts from there AFTER seeing the D. That's not realistic at all. A powerful way to take that away is do what Madden says: you get 2 to 3 plays. You get 1 hot route, and awareness will make it a risk for low AWR guys. Changing plays should involve more risk, more mistakes. It shouldn't be as foolproof as it is currently.

Thoughts?

Agreed. And I'm talking strictly from an offline POV, but if we're going to go there, then there has to be more of a way to truly gameplan against a team like NFL coaches. Most coaches actually know what's coming on certain downs, distances, and field position. Now, I'm not totally sure how'd you implelement it, but there's got to be some way to call a 3rd and 7 defense or 3rd and 7 pass based on a general idea of what your opponent likes to do on those downs. Is he going to throw it to the sidelines or go for more in-breaking routes, etc.?

I know that in last gen, there was the feature in franchise where you could spend a small bit of practice time working against the other team's 3 favorite offensive or defensive plays and that would give your team a small awareness point in the given situation if you execute something like three successful reps. It always felt just right in the game and not overpowered at all as I remember the better teams would adjust. I always looked for that feature to be expanded upon, but no luck.

Also, I was hoping to see John, in his talk about line play, hit on expanding those options. Slide protection should at least be expanded to include half-line slides.

[DaggerSwagger]

sorry guys but Madden the game has passed Madden the coach by....wth he blabbing about 3on3, also remember that he's the one who implemented the new play calling mode which makes Madden feel even more scripted. I'm not buying it...redo the engine already!

thumbs up to this

[TNT713]

Re: When John Madden Speaks, Game Designers Listen w/ Video

Anyone can play it, but no one can perfect it - John Madden about the Madden NFL series.

Gotta love it...

Later

[youALREADYknow]

Re: When John Madden Speaks, Game Designers Listen w/ Video

Well gameplanning is a good idea, I just think the execution wasn't the best in M11. He does have a point that every coach doesn't go into the game w/ 300 plays, and teams run the same play from different sets more often than most people think.

It's not just a good idea, it's one of the greatest features in this generation for the Madden franchise.

Gameplanning was like a blessing from the gods for us Coach Mode players. Hopefully they can enhance this even more in M12 and make it work for both teams like it was working at release.

[CreatineKasey]

Re: When John Madden Speaks, Game Designers Listen w/ Video

"Hot Routes," should be limited; are your serious? One hot route? Hot routes are one of the few things Madden actually does right! In my opinion, it is very realistic to be able to execute multiple hot routes and audibles at the los. Some of the better QBs in the NFL do it often, most notable, Payton Manning. We should, have the option to change a play up based on what can be read from the defence's pre-snap showing. That's FOOTBALL! Now, in saying that, instead of unrealistically limiting hot routes and audibles, how about making them less affective via miscommunication. Crowd noise, team chemistry, and hot route/audible execution, should be studied and then implemented as relevant factors in the game, thus making every team play unique to the subject.

The same for defence. I should have more options pre-snap. For example, I should be able to order my CB to shade the inside/outside of a WR. I should have more options to individually ajust my players: B&R one WR, and play off another while still maintaining inside/ouside coverage, etc. Crazy thing is, six years ago, these options were available in NFL2K5. EA Sports, It's not in the game. Guess it's not sunday.

People should watch what they say on these forums, because in the off chance that EA will actually read what the community/consumer has to say, they will listen to posts like CreatineKasey's, and continue to design their game around unrealistic features and gameplay. We all know the Madden dev team tries hard every year to focus on everything but core realistic gameplay. Lets not help them.

My Madden issues: WR/DB interaction, OL/DL interaction, overall animation(light years behind 2K5), terrible running animation(ice skating, runners cover ground, but legs aren't moving at a realistic pace to cover said ground; better running animation in past gen Maddens(Madden06ps2), terrible play action execution, terrible presentation(also light years behind past gen, six years old, smaller hard-drive 2K5), lack of realistic QB scramble logic for the AI, terrible QB lead feature(can't put the ball where only your WR can get it(lead high, low, in front, behind, up left, up mid, up right, etc..., more responsive in 2K), TERRIBLE replay challenges, and how could I forget, NO CONSECUTIVE HIT TACKLES(REAL GANG TACKLES)!!! ALSO PRESENT IN 2K5!!!

SMH. To get the most realistic football experience, you have to own a time machine and go back six years. Or, just own 2K5. We need competition in football. How long are we going to have to wait to get the fundamental standards of old out of current gen football gaming? We deserve better than EA.

I don't think audibles are that easy to do. Do you think it's commonplace for NFL teams to come out in the same play every down and audible to one of 20 other plays and concepts from that base play after they've seen the defense?

At the very least they need to make hot routes take more time to call. I shouldn't be able to snap off 4 route changes in 4 seconds individually like I can now. There really should be a heavier commit to the base play called. I think that commit facilitates a deeper strategy that carries throughout the game, just like real football. Right now, things can get boiled down and simplified to a couple of excessively simple checks and the game can rarely evolve beyond a certain point.

Now, part of this is personal choice by the users playing, but I think the game should mimic reality more in the sense of what's possible at the LOS. I just honestly don't think it's that easy to communicate multiple individual route adjustments at the LOS. Are there audibles? YES. Does a QB draw up new plays in the sand while under center like we do in Madden? I don't think so.

Regarding the personal attacks, I don't appreciate them. Honestly, it's just my opinion and I'm not going to disparage you personally because your opinion differs. It's really hard to respect your thoughts when you won't respect my thoughts or me as a person.

A lot of those defensive adjustments I agree with, but I also think some of them could be designed into plays. A lot of defenses have certain shades in certain areas depending on the play called, the offense's formation/personnel, the spot of the ball, and the down/distance. What I've postulated in the past is having several "schemes" in the game and being able to apply whatever one you prefer. Different coaches have all kinds of schemes and rules which can differ drastically at times. How those schemes and rules interact is one aspect of football that makes it really interesting for me personally.

Think about how much harder it'd be to call an offense in Madden if you really had to pay attention to what the D was calling and audibling out of your play had real risk involved, including limits and communication errors. To me, that'd drive the game to more realistic scores and play results. How often have you seen teams commit to a play despite unfavorable defensive formation? Every game. Yes, some QB's make some adjustments to get into something they like, but it's not to the extent and simplicity Madden allows. Consequences like time loss and communication need to be a factor.

Any more thoughts on this from OSers? Agree/Disagree?

[tlc12576]

Re: When John Madden Speaks, Game Designers Listen w/ Video

"Hot Routes," should be limited; are your serious? One hot route? Hot routes are one of the few things Madden actually does right! In my opinion, it is very realistic to be able to execute multiple hot routes and audibles at the los. Some of the better QBs in the NFL do it often, most notable, Payton Manning. We should, have the option to change a play up based on what can be read from the defence's pre-snap showing. That's FOOTBALL! Now, in saying that, instead of unrealistically limiting hot routes and audibles, how about making them less affective via miscommunication. Crowd noise, team chemistry, and hot route/audible execution, should be studied and then implemented as relevant factors in the game, thus making every team play unique to the subject.......

With all due respect to your post, you are mistaken, IMO. Hot routes/hot receivers are limited in a real NFL play. Not even Payton Manning comes to the LOS and "hot routes" every receiver on the play. If you change multiple routes, that's a new playcall, not a "hot route".

Definition of a "hot" receiver is: A receiver designated to accept a quick pass from the quarterback in the event of a blitz by the defense.

Example: If a quarterback recognizes the blitz before the snap, he may audible to the hot receiver so he can get rid of the ball before the defense has a chance to get to him.


We should NOT be able to come to the LOS in Madden and design new plays. This is what Madden actually allows now and it is NOT realistic.

EDIT*- On a side note, I do think they should add a bonus option for more route adjustment for WRs and QBs that have played together a long time. This would help differentiate WR/QB tandems and encourage team building, instead of just trying to grab the highest rated WR and QB's every year. Come to think of it, this would make sense for all areas of the game, offense, defense and special teams. The longer players play together in the same system, more playcall options, that are realistic, should be available to choose.