Madden NFL Designers Podcast #4 w/ Special Guest, Pasta Padre Available Now

[Ian_Cummings]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #4 w/ Special Guest, Pasta Padre Available Now

Just a couple of things I wanted to comment on...

"Customization is king in sports gaming" - Nah, authenticity is king. Make the game more of a simulation THEN worry about customizing. IMO there's too much time spent trying to please everyone. EVERY aspect of the game is poor at this point. The people having fun with Madden are those who can overlook the lack of authenticity, don't care for authenticity or are not familiar enough with the sport to know the difference. Unfortunately for the rest of us, that's a lot of folks.

We were on the topic of customization dude. Not really fair to take that out of context and act like that's my sole purpose in life to create more customization. Authenticity is obviously more important in the bigger picture.

[ryan36]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #4 w/ Special Guest, Pasta Padre Available Now

We were on the topic of customization dude. Not really fair to take that out of context and act like that's my sole purpose in life to create more customization. Authenticity is obviously more important in the bigger picture.

Yeah, I'm taking Ian's side on this . I've been critical of the product's flaws, and pleased with what it did well, but I don't think one could ever make the case that authenticity has been "low on the list" for the Madden series since Ian and Phil took charge.

It's important to look at the context of the conversation...

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #4 w/ Special Guest, Pasta Padre Available Now

As a 39yo Offline only guy, who has bought Madden since it's inception: Strat pad, and Gameflow weren't the reason that I didn't buy M-11', but it didn't make me want to buy it either.

I personally didn't buy M-11' because Offline Modes were once again disregarded. If Offline Franchise and SS Modes were improved to M-06 (PS2) standards, I would have probably overlooked the controversial additions.

Is there any thought of producing two seperate titles, one for online, and one for offline? Possibly making each title $40-$50 ($70 for a box set), especially since there is such a split of use between online/offline use (so you wouldn't have to worry about alienating a large group of customers).

Good to see that you guys didn't give up (on podcasts) after the fallout from the last one. I do have a tidbit of advice for you guys: I understand that the online socially connected youth are the future buyers of Madden. However, the old-farts (that traditionally prefer Offline play) that have been buying Madden since it's inception aren't dead yet, and have years of purchases ahead of us.

Sorry Reejer, but I'm in my mid 30s and fall into that "old fart" category too. I actually play online exclusively. Online franchise is all i want to play, but I don't feel that OFFLINE franchise should be ignored just because I don't play it. Both online AND offline franchise should be shared code and should work exactly the same. Everything in offline, should be in online. Beating the crap out of the computer for 30 seasons in a row is not high on my list of "fun" things to do in football. Actually competing with 31 other enthusiaists and wannabe GMs to build a team through drafting and free agency moves is MUCH more appealing, and it's much more appealing to people in our age range than you might think. There is a HUGE interest in online franchise, it's just that in typical EA fashion, the feature was left incomplete and difficult to run. Very unfortunate. However, a young kid was able to write the LeagueManager web app, which manages salary cap, free agent bidding, roster management, etc. etc. Yes, one kid in his 20s did this.

As far as customization goes, there is never anything wrong with customization. The more you can do the better, but out of the box it should be a simulation game. We also need the ability to customize our online leagues/franchises the same way an offline player can customize. Everything that is offline should also be online.

Madden 11 is not a bad game. The football is decent. However, it is still lacking polish, presentation, commentary is awful and disjointed still, still can't shade coverages, fumble system is buggy and broken, challenge system is terrible still, missing a ton of penalties and the ones in the game are not called correctly, the ball physics are a mess, online franchise is missing a BUNCH of things.

That is just a list of things that should be way ahead. Then there are advanced things that we could have by now, like online spectating. How about being able to watch your opponent's games in online franchises? How about a fully functional league web site that allows for news stories, drafting, and other things? What about being able to have practice games using your online franchise team?

While I (and others) appreciate the desire to share information, both on this board and in the podcasts, my advice to the devs would be to not use phrases like, "that takes a long time", "we need more resources to do that", or "that's very difficult to implement". There are a lot of folks that have close to zero confidence in the Madden team, mainly because of these types of responses. Yes, every software development team knows things are hard and take a long time, but you don't tell the customer that.

Here's to hoping Madden comes around and returns to being a great product again.

[Reejer]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #4 w/ Special Guest, Pasta Padre Available Now

Both online AND offline franchise should be shared code and should work exactly the same. Everything in offline, should be in online.

Here is something that we both agree 100% on. I have just been frustrated with the "streamlining" (stripping of good features) from the Offline modes, to focus on Online modes. If all of the last-gen features were on both Online and Offline modes, I think most customers would be pretty satisfied.

I know that not all old-farts are offline only, but when I was on the EA boards there was a topic that asked how old, and what kind of player you were, and the majority of the older folks were primarily offline players.

I think that the main issue with Online play that turns me off, is being called the "N" word, and cussed at by some snot-nosed little punk, and I can't schedule a time in my day to play against someone that I don't know, or care to know. I guess I am electronically anti-social.

[tlc12576]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #4 w/ Special Guest, Pasta Padre Available Now

We were on the topic of customization dude. Not really fair to take that out of context and act like that's my sole purpose in life to create more customization. Authenticity is obviously more important in the bigger picture.

Yeah, I'm taking Ian's side on this . I've been critical of the product's flaws, and pleased with what it did well, but I don't think one could ever make the case that authenticity has been "low on the list" for the Madden series since Ian and Phil took charge.

It's important to look at the context of the conversation...

I am looking forward to Madden 12 being focused on real football, like they said in podcast 1 and don't want to belittle anyone's effort in Madden over the years. Madden is beloved and revered by millions so anyone working on the game should take great satisfaction in this fact. Also, there is a quote I like from boxer Floyd Mayweather Jr. that says, "People always want to tell you how to do what you do, when they can't do what you do" or something like that. LOL

That said, I don't really agree with the claim Bezo took anything out of context when looking at the big picture for what has been said and done with Madden, even if we start at Madden 10.

If Madden had a more authentic NFL football simulation foundation, the comment about customization would fall in the context of "now that the NFL simulation foundation in Madden is solid, we can focus on letting individual gamers adjust their own experience". Madden, in its' current state makes this comment, along with a few others, fall in the context of " a NFL simulation is not for everybody out the box so lets add more customization so individual gamers can make Madden more realistic."

I don't think that's being rude or overly critical but a rational assessment of the perspective some Madden devs seem to have when creating Madden. I think that's why Bezo posted that, not just because of that one comment in the context of that conversation but do to the bigger context of how user customization is repeatedly referred to as a tool to for more realism. However, in a NFL simulation game like Madden, simulating NFL reality, should be priority "out the box", with customization available for gamers to alter NFL reality, in-game, as they see fit and not the other way around.

So when looking at the ENTIRE context of how customization has been discussed concerning Madden and more importantly, the content of customization in Madden, Bezo wasn't being unfair, IMO. He actually pointed out a different perspective that could hopefully change the way some devs seem to view customization and NFL authenticity in Madden.

“It’s not what you say you’re gonna do, it’s about how you do what you said you’d do when it comes time to do it.” Kelly Ferguson, a former Army boxer and strategist.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #4 w/ Special Guest, Pasta Padre Available Now

I think that the main issue with Online play that turns me off, is being called the "N" word, and cussed at by some snot-nosed little punk, and I can't schedule a time in my day to play against someone that I don't know, or care to know. I guess I am electronically anti-social.

there are lots of people in the world that are morons. I only play people on my friends list. Works great. Getting into a successful online franchise is really a ton of fun. There are tons of great organized leagues out there. Even here on OS, there is the Old Timers league and the ACQB. Both are excellent, and loads of fun.

[roadman]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #4 w/ Special Guest, Pasta Padre Available Now

I am looking forward to Madden 12 being focused on real football, like they said in podcast 1 and don't want to belittle anyone's effort in Madden over the years. Madden is beloved and revered by millions so anyone working on the game should take great satisfaction in this fact. Also, there is a quote I like from boxer Floyd Mayweather Jr. that says, "People always want to tell you how to do what you do, when they can't do what you do" or something like that. LOL

That said, I don't really agree with the claim Bezo took anything out of context when looking at the big picture for what has been said and done with Madden, even if we start at Madden 10.

If Madden had a more authentic NFL football simulation foundation, the comment about customization would fall in the context of "now that the NFL simulation foundation in Madden is solid, we can focus on letting individual gamers adjust their own experience". Madden, in its' current state makes this comment, along with a few others, fall in the context of " a NFL simulation is not for everybody out the box so lets add more customization so individual gamers can make Madden more realistic."

I don't think that's being rude or overly critical but a rational assessment of the perspective some Madden devs seem to have when creating Madden. I think that's why Bezo posted that, not just because of that one comment in the context of that conversation but do to the bigger context of how user customization is repeatedly referred to as a tool to for more realism. However, in a NFL simulation game like Madden, simulating NFL reality, should be priority "out the box", with customization available for gamers to alter NFL reality, in-game, as they see fit and not the other way around.

So when looking at the ENTIRE context of how customization has been discussed concerning Madden and more importantly, the content of customization in Madden, Bezo wasn't being unfair, IMO. He actually pointed out a different perspective that could hopefully change the way some devs seem to view customization and NFL authenticity in Madden.

“It’s not what you say you’re gonna do, it’s about how you do what you said you’d do when it comes time to do it.” Kelly Ferguson, a former Army boxer and strategist.

With all due respect TLC, I do love to hear the phrase, Customization is king. I think Ian was trying to say, authenticity is in the big picture, as in now and the future.

Can't change what's been done in the past. In the past, (talking about 06, 7, 8 and maybe 9), we all weren't on the same page regarding authenticity. Now, I get the feeling that the bigger pictures includes more, Everything you see on Sunday.

I'm sure I'll get feedback on that, but I'm used to that. I have a better feeling it's going towards that way than I did several years ago.

[tlc12576]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #4 w/ Special Guest, Pasta Padre Available Now

With all due respect TLC, I do love to hear the phrase, Customization is king. I think Ian was trying to say, authenticity is in the big picture, as in now and the future.
Can't change what's been done in the past. In the past, (talking about 06, 7, 8 and maybe 9), we all weren't on the same page regarding authenticity. Now, I get the feeling that the bigger pictures includes more, Everything you see on Sunday.

I'm sure I'll get feedback on that, but I'm used to that. I have a better feeling it's going towards that way than I did several years ago.

I sure most people like the phrase but the main thing is the context and meaning of it. I am not ranting and raving about customization being acknowledged, I am talking about what some devs seem to mean when they discuss customization and realism in relation to how they are implemented into Madden.

They seem to be of the perspective that "customization is king" for users to get a more authentic and realistic NFL experience in Madden. I whole heartedly, respectfully disagree with that perspective towards creating Madden going forward because it is supposed to be a NFL simulation video game to start with.

Customization in Madden should be a way to attract gamers who are NOT that interested in NFL authenticity and want to experience football in their own unique way. Not marketed to or created for simulation gamers that actually want and expect NFL realism to be standard in Madden, to use to achieve "their own version" of sim.

I don't mean any harm but I really don't know why so many people prescribe to the notion that sim is subjective and opinionated. There is the way the NFL actually is and then there is the way different people want it to be. Recreating the way the actual NFL is in a video game is creating a NFL simulation, allowing users to recreate the NFL how they think it should be or what it is to them, is customization.

Customization is appropriate for adding diversity in Madden's "court" but simulation should always be King.

[roadman]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #4 w/ Special Guest, Pasta Padre Available Now

Customization is appropriate for adding diversity in Madden's "court" but simulation should always be King.

I don't think the present developers disagree with you, do you?

I really don't think it is that cut and dry what sim in the NFL is to some people. If you went out and asked 10 different people, you would get 10 different answers.

[at23steelers]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #4 w/ Special Guest, Pasta Padre Available Now

I sure most people like the phrase but the main thing is the context and meaning of it. I am not ranting and raving about customization being acknowledged, I am talking about what some devs seem to mean when they discuss customization and realism in relation to how they are implemented into Madden.

They seem to be of the perspective that "customization is king" for users to get a more authentic and realistic NFL experience in Madden. I whole heartedly, respectfully disagree with that perspective towards creating Madden going forward because it is supposed to be a NFL simulation video game to start with.

Customization in Madden should be a way to attract gamers who are NOT that interested in NFL authenticity and want to experience football in their own unique way. Not marketed to or created for simulation gamers that actually want and expect NFL realism to be standard in Madden, to use to achieve "their own version" of sim.

I don't mean any harm but I really don't know why so many people prescribe to the notion that sim is subjective and opinionated. There is the way the NFL actually is and then there is the way different people want it to be. Recreating the way the actual NFL is in a video game is creating a NFL simulation, allowing users to recreate the NFL how they think it should be or what it is to them, is customization.

Customization is appropriate for adding diversity in Madden's "court" but simulation should always be King.

I agree with what TLC is saying, and in a short, concise way: Customization does not create authenticity. Authenticity allows for users to use customization and still create a realistic NFL game.

[BezO]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #4 w/ Special Guest, Pasta Padre Available Now

...That said, I don't really agree with the claim Bezo took anything out of context when looking at the big picture for what has been said and done with Madden, even if we start at Madden 10.

If Madden had a more authentic NFL football simulation foundation, the comment about customization would fall in the context of "now that the NFL simulation foundation in Madden is solid, we can focus on letting individual gamers adjust their own experience". Madden, in its' current state makes this comment, along with a few others, fall in the context of " a NFL simulation is not for everybody out the box so lets add more customization so individual gamers can make Madden more realistic."

EAXACTLY what tlc12576 said. I didn't want to get into that, but I'm not taking the comment out of context. I'm putting it in context with the current state of the game, which I don't feel is an authentic simulation of NFL football.

[BezO]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #4 w/ Special Guest, Pasta Padre Available Now

We were on the topic of customization dude. Not really fair to take that out of context and act like that's my sole purpose in life to create more customization. Authenticity is obviously more important in the bigger picture.

Not what I was saying, but good to see you around OS Ian. Stay a while.

[RAMSFAN21]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #4 w/ Special Guest, Pasta Padre Available Now

EAXACTLY what tlc12576 said. I didn't want to get into that, but I'm not taking the comment out of context. I'm putting it in context with the current state of the game, which I don't feel is an authentic simulation of NFL football.

I'm glad somebody said it...Because of exclusivity there's a whole generation of nfl gamers that may never see what a real sim game is!! I guess ignorance is bliss

[Reejer]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #4 w/ Special Guest, Pasta Padre Available Now

"Customization is king in sports gaming" - Nah, authenticity is king.

I remember playing the earliest Maddens, before they could use actual team names/jerseys. I couldn't wait until they could use the NFL teams. Then I was wanting the actual players. After I got the first two of my wishes fulfilled, I wanted to create myself in the game, and create a new team (and poof it happened).

Ever since Madden went next-gen different aspects of individual game customization have been stripped out of the game, and have left me wanting what we used to have. Like the more robust create-a-team/player from last-gen, and other optional features that have been discontinued.

Pure and complete authenticity is not realistically attainable in a game, EX: How would you like to have Sullivan hike the ball screwy each time you are in the shotgun, or if your team turned the ball over constantly. or if your HB slipped around in the snow (like a figure skater). Yes it would be more realistic, but where do we draw the line between fun and realistic. It would be nice if these situations happened every once and a while, and if weather had an affect on gameplay, but if they happened on a regular (realistic) basis it could get frustrating.

I understand that authenticity is important to you, but if you are able to customize the game you can produce your own sense of authenticity. EX-1: If you think that Donny didn't rate a player authentically, then with customization, you the player can change it. EX-2: If you think that there aren't enough penalties being called, a slider can fix it for you. EX-3: If you don't think that the players are moving at the correct speed, a slider can fix that too.

Even though I do think that there are some bugs, and other aspects that make Madden less desireable than it's predecessors. I do think that Madden has always strived to make the most authentic NFL product that they can, and have tried to keep that as their mantra. And I do believe that the Dev. team has successfully made the Madden series as close to authentic as they can.

Yes I understand that there is stil room for improvement, EX: IR, PS, FA, trade logic, progression/regression, penalties, challenges, physics, and depth. But from the sounds of it, they are working to fix alot of these disfunctional items.

What authentic/sim. aspects that are currently missing in Madden are you guys wanting for M-12' and beyond?

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #4 w/ Special Guest, Pasta Padre Available Now

I don't think the present developers disagree with you, do you?

I really don't think it is that cut and dry what sim in the NFL is to some people. If you went out and asked 10 different people, you would get 10 different answers.

Hey Road, this is an interesting point you make here. The reason being that it is a football game we are discussing. At what point did this game stray from what it is to something it isn't? The problem here is that EA wants to capitalize on this product to make the most money it can (which is totally fair), but by doing so, they have tried to make Madden a "jack of all trades, master of none." Madden is supposed to be an NFL football simulation. It is not an arcade game, it is not a role playing game, it is not an adventure game. It's football. If you look at the sports games at the top of the heap right now (NBA 2k, MLB the Show). Those are the two best sports games out there. They focus on what they do best. Authentic representation of the sport they are emulating. Period. those games do not worry about catering to certain groups. Being a true simulation game and REALLY representing what we see on Sunday will still ALWAYS attract the "casual" crowd. If they want to play football, they will buy it. It's that simple.