Madden NFL 12 Interview: Donny Moore - Scouting Talent

[KBLover]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Interview: Donny Moore - Scouting Talent

As pointed out by many some ratings have little to no effect. Players play the same, because everything seems to be build up around one model. lofeazy mentioned player tendencies in soccer video games and while they are far from perfect, it makes the players feel more individual and unique - much like the abilities system of APF 2k8. None of the soccer games, however, have a proper AI system that recognizes those tendencies from teammates yet. Currently AI teammates don't recognize the abilities and strengths of their fellow teammates, but act like 11 individuals on the field instead.

I really don't think you need tendencies to get basic differences. The ratings just need to come out in the game. A 50 RTE WR should be running choppy routes, maybe even falling down like some of the WR did during the combine today trying to run the 10-yd out. "Controlling your speed and your body" is route running.

Those things just don't translate. You don't need tendencies to make technique differences show in a lot of cases. You just need to make difference in technique skill show up, imo.

To me, tendencies would be more impacting style/decision making in "ambiguous" situations. For example, a defender is about to make a tackle - does he wrap and tackle or does he try for the knockout shot, or does he focus mostly on trying to strip the ball? That, imo, would be something impacted by tendencies - effectiveness by ratings.

For a QB, if he scrambles, does he just try to buy time, using his quickness in the pocket to escape and extend plays and bait defenders into approaching him (letting WR uncover downfield), or does he scramble, see daylight, and take off upfield, maybe bypassing a WR coming free over the top to try to make the play himself?

An RB is about to get contacted - does he try to evade (and how? Juke, spin, cut, quick change in speed, change angle, etc) or does he invite contact and try to break through (and how? stiff arm, lower shoulder, push aside the defender, slight sidestep and then lower shoulder to try for better contact angle, etc)

Things like that would be areas I could see tendencies. That way two scrambling, fast QBs, wouldn't just play like 2 Michael Vicks, etc.

Tendencies like this could be good coaching influences. Let's say you draft a HB who probably should be more of a power runner, but he's trying to juke and cut too much. You could bring in a coach that teaches downhill running and perhaps start to change this kid's tendency towards his strength (what his ratings would dictate) and see his performance improve.

While Tiburons current approach with 49-50 individual rating to separate players from each other might look logical and functional on paper, it translates into very poor gameplay in the actual game. If you put Randy Moss and Wes Welker next to each other and make them run identical routes, you'd think you were watching a football equivalent of synchronized swimming. Players appear to be build around one model and their body size is scaled without any effect.

The problem isn't necessarily the ratings. Having 50 ratings doesn't mean that things like route running or play recognition differences shouldn't show up more consistently and apparently. If Welker and Moss look the same, that's not the fault of having too many ratings, it's that the differences between them in the ratings aren't being expressed (and maybe not being large enough - seems like the scale, effectively, is 80 to 100 unless you really suck at something - not a wide range). You could have 5 ratings and see the same issue.

[KBLover]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Interview: Donny Moore - Scouting Talent

Well, a major overhaul of the Draft/Scouting system is badly needed if they try to revamp franchise mode.

I just got a complete OLine in a single draft consisting of 5 rookies with starting OVR between 82 and 88, all but one with A potential (the 85 OVR LT is "only" B potential) and I did it with 3 4th and 2 5th round picks, I did scout but I wouldn't even have needed that, it was so painfully obvious from the skill hex that they were monstrous players. That's just wrong, yes sometimes there may be players in the later rounds that develop into beasts, but not like that, and they shouldn't be THAT easy to pick out.

Yeah, the heck should be replaced with a broad kind of thing (Run Block: Average, Footwork: Good, etc) which have very wide ratings (so average might be like 50 or could be 75, but you have no idea until later)

Either that or that hex chart should be VERY inaccurate unless you have the top tier scouting agency and even then it should only be "kinda" accurate.

[carnalnirvana]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Interview: Donny Moore - Scouting Talent

some of these aspects are already in the game, if you give a WR agility of 65 he gets open slower and uses less sharp angles that always seem "money"

BUT people would riot if a raw talent like D bryant got a 65 agility & route running to simulate how much he still has to learn to be an elite WR

like someone mentioned the ratings are tied to the marketing of the game, if they tried to displayed anything close to realism of actual abilities you would see alot of 50's 30's 20's in gatecories guys are enjoying 80's now

personally how anyone on the colts can manage a BLOCK SHREDDING rating above 40 is rediculous. have you seen our run D. let our speed and pursuit dictate our success not bracket beating/tossing off pro bowl OL.

the texans CB's all have above 70 man coverage & as well as zone thats crazy too. if i had my way they would have 40's

i dont mind guys getting high ratings for raw talent but the skill technique ratings needs to be 20-100.

in the madden universe a 70 is bad, IMO that cant simulate how special the great guys are especially since 70 and 99 seem to share the same animations.

[guaps]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Interview: Donny Moore - Scouting Talent

I really don't think you need tendencies to get basic differences. The ratings just need to come out in the game.

I'm not convinced, but I do agree that making the ratings work properly could go a long way in getting a better game. However, I'm still very concerned with Tiburon apparently using the same player model for all positions. There is one locomotion that is used on all players regardless of what position he plays and his weight/height. If you put a offensive tackle at wide receiver he will move about using wide receiver animations, because Madden doesn't have multiple player models that makes him move and behave like lineman when out of position. This is probably more important than their choice of rating system.

Tendencies like this could be good coaching influences.

The tendencies is FIFA are similar to your suggestions. They determine small aspects, such as if players are likely to attempt early crosses or long-range shots etc. Much like having a QB in Madden that likes to throw deep balls, or scramble for daylight and showing it occasionally. Being able to coach new tendencies or suppress current ones would be a fantastic addition.

The problem isn't necessarily the ratings. Having 50 ratings doesn't mean that things like route running or play recognition differences shouldn't show up more consistently and apparently. [...] You could have 5 ratings and see the same issue.

This was the point I was trying to make. The underlying gameplay/player models are flawed, so adjusting ratings won't fix the game. Everything seems to be scaled around one player model, who is just made higher/shorter and thinner/bulkier without any effect gameplay-wise.

If you've ever tried FIFA 11, you'll have a hard going back to FIFA 10 or previous editions, because they've implemented differentiated behavior from multiple player models. The means that the ratings work together with the player model to produce very realistic behavior, so a 6'2" player model feels and moves like you expect a 6'2" player would and ditto for 5'7" models. Adding weight to that so a 160 lbs 6'2" players moves differently from a 190 lbs 6'2" player and combining that with tendencies you get more immersion than Madden has ever been able to provide.

I find myself looking at height and weight before ratings when deciding between players in FIFA. That's something that I have never done in Madden.

[KBLover]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Interview: Donny Moore - Scouting Talent

BUT people would riot if a raw talent like D bryant got a 65 agility & route running to simulate how much he still has to learn to be an elite WR

Now that's sad. The general Madden fan base is that sensitive?

i dont mind guys getting high ratings for raw talent but the skill technique ratings needs to be 20-100.

Which is probably where most of the differences between teams exists anyway. Player technique/mental abilities and coaching/play calling.

in the madden universe a 70 is bad, IMO that cant simulate how special the great guys are especially since 70 and 99 seem to share the same animations.

And worse - just about the same effectiveness. I guess that's also part of the game being more user-oriented than a game like FBPro which is more you're the coach/GM, not so much the players on the field.

[KBLover]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Interview: Donny Moore - Scouting Talent

I'm not convinced, but I do agree that making the ratings work properly could go a long way in getting a better game. However, I'm still very concerned with Tiburon apparently using the same player model for all positions. There is one locomotion that is used on all players regardless of what position he plays and his weight/height. If you put a offensive tackle at wide receiver he will move about using wide receiver animations, because Madden doesn't have multiple player models that makes him move and behave like lineman when out of position. This is probably more important than their choice of rating system.

True - but at least if the OL has stone hands, slow as a brick, and his "routes" are ineffective, he won't succeed as a WR.

It still will look bad, though, to see a 320 lb guy making a speed cut. I agree absolutely there. At the minimum, these thing will make a difference, physically, on the field (player wouldn't get to where he's supposed to be on time, etc) and the flow of the game/plays you'll best run.

The tendencies is FIFA are similar to your suggestions. They determine small aspects, such as if players are likely to attempt early crosses or long-range shots etc. Much like having a QB in Madden that likes to throw deep balls, or scramble for daylight and showing it occasionally. Being able to coach new tendencies or suppress current ones would be a fantastic addition.

Makes me wish I was a soccer fan - I hear so many good things from guys here who play FIFA.

If you've ever tried FIFA 11, you'll have a hard going back to FIFA 10 or previous editions, because they've implemented differentiated behavior from multiple player models. The means that the ratings work together with the player model to produce very realistic behavior, so a 6'2" player model feels and moves like you expect a 6'2" player would and ditto for 5'7" models. Adding weight to that so a 160 lbs 6'2" players moves differently from a 190 lbs 6'2" player and combining that with tendencies you get more immersion than Madden has ever been able to provide.

I find myself looking at height and weight before ratings when deciding between players in FIFA. That's something that I have never done in Madden.

Agreed, that would be totally awesome. I never understood how height and weight never made it into consideration - either as a modifier to skill success or by setting the max possible value certain ratings could be. So even with A potential, a light, short guy won't be getting 90 STR and RBS/PBS. Meanwhile, a big, tall, physical WR probably won't ever run quick routes (or if he does, he's a rare freak of a player) but he should have very high RLS ratings (hard to jam him at the line), even at B or C potential.

And why height doesn't change player models (and thus their hit boxes) - I don't know. Sounds like a simple thing, but what do I know.

[at23steelers]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Interview: Donny Moore - Scouting Talent

"To quickly walk through the process: I’ll take a guy like Mark Ingram or Blaine Gabbert and I’ll find what everyone perceives is his best NFL comparison. Just to throw an example out there let's say Mark Ingram’s baseline equivalent is Ricky Williams. I’ll take Ricky Williams and utilize him as a template. I’ll know right away that the Mark Ingram player I’m creating is in a similar mold as a Ricky Williams. From there, obviously, I’m tweaking each individual rating to how Ingram plays. It’s just a starting point to give me a template for a player and how he plays."

This right here is why the ratings system presented by the folks at EA is broken. They are using templates that may or may not correlate to new players in draft classes. Why not just make a player like Mark Ingram a MARK INGRAM instead of a modified Ricky Williams. Was DJ Shockley based off of Michael Vick because he was a scrambling QB with size? Of course not! What they need to be doing is making these players total individuals who are independent from one another. If I can do it in my spare time for my site, then I would think that some guys who are professionally paid to do this could do it as well. Sheesh...

If you like what DCEBB is saying, you can view his site here: http://www.fbgratings.com/members/index.php and post in my thread here: http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2042161868

[kwpit79]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Interview: Donny Moore - Scouting Talent

To mirror what some of you have already said, Madden needs its player ratings s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d out. Only surefire HOF players should be in the 90s in terms of rating. So in my scenario, a solid starting player should be in the 50s, with 70's being borderline Pro Bowler.

[mikeacard]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Interview: Donny Moore - Scouting Talent

I don't play against the cpu very much if at all and I look at myself as a decent online player. That being said, I don't know where some of you have the idea that ratings don't matter at all. My favorite team is the Jets and I notice the difference every time I play with a team that doesn't have Revis and Cro. With those two guys I can run press coverage everytime I see a two WR set because they rarely get beat off the line.

I also notice the difference when I play with different teams that have linebackers who can play pass defense. Harris and Scott are beasts against the run but I get lit up in a zone with them. I see a lot more plays in the pass game made by linebackers on the broncos, bucs, ravens, and other teams I use.

Also, I think you guys look at the overall rating too much. I love to run man coverage with lots of blitz looks so when I play with the Jets my 4th CB is not dwight lowery, who is rated in the mid 70's, but marquice cole. Cole is rated somewhere in the 60's but he has a decent speed rating and a much better man coverage rating than lowery does. The difference in man coverage is quite noticeable.

Maybe things are different against the CPU but the last two years of playing online I have definitely been able to tell the difference between a 90 and a 70 at every position besides maybe RB.

[carnalnirvana]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Interview: Donny Moore - Scouting Talent

I don't play against the cpu very much if at all and I look at myself as a decent online player. That being said, I don't know where some of you have the idea that ratings don't matter at all. My favorite team is the Jets and I notice the difference every time I play with a team that doesn't have Revis and Cro. With those two guys I can run press coverage everytime I see a two WR set because they rarely get beat off the line.

I also notice the difference when I play with different teams that have linebackers who can play pass defense. Harris and Scott are beasts against the run but I get lit up in a zone with them. I see a lot more plays in the pass game made by linebackers on the broncos, bucs, ravens, and other teams I use.

Also, I think you guys look at the overall rating too much. I love to run man coverage with lots of blitz looks so when I play with the Jets my 4th CB is not dwight lowery, who is rated in the mid 70's, but marquice cole. Cole is rated somewhere in the 60's but he has a decent speed rating and a much better man coverage rating than lowery does. The difference in man coverage is quite noticeable.

Maybe things are different against the CPU but the last two years of playing online I have definitely been able to tell the difference between a 90 and a 70 at every position besides maybe RB.

your post kinda sums up the reason why many feel the ratings dont do justice to players because i can run that same scheme with the texans.

a DB on the texans read routes and turns on a dime SAME as REVIS.

SO IF I CAN PLAY FLAWLESS D with a 75 rated player why do i need superstars.

they both share the same animations and react the EXACT same way every time.

[DocHolliday]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Interview: Donny Moore - Scouting Talent

Was this a interview from madden 07?

[TheDelta]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Interview: Donny Moore - Scouting Talent

they both share the same animations and react the EXACT same way every time.

That's simply not true. It least for me, I'm playing mostly against the CPU on All-Madden with custom sliders, there's a HUGE difference between having a corner with Speed 80 and Man Cover 75 and one with let's say Speed 97 and Man Cover 99 cover the same receiver. The first one will get burnt constantly, the other one won't. (he will still get burnt too often compared to a "true" shutdown corner in the NFL, true)

What's truly flawed is the "Overall" calculation used. For example, there's only one formula for calculating DE overall, it doesn't matter if you're playing a 3-4 or a 4-3... so no just because your OLB is a great pass rusher doesn't mean he's a great 3-4 DE. And Returning... I still wonder how the game really thinks a guy with Speed Below 90 can be a 97 OVR Kick Returner...

[khaliib]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Interview: Donny Moore - Scouting Talent

That's simply not true. It least for me, I'm playing mostly against the CPU on All-Madden with custom sliders, there's a HUGE difference between having a corner with Speed 80 and Man Cover 75 and one with let's say Speed 97 and Man Cover 99 cover the same receiver. The first one will get burnt constantly, the other one won't. (he will still get burnt too often compared to a "true" shutdown corner in the NFL, true)

What's truly flawed is the "Overall" calculation used. For example, there's only one formula for calculating DE overall, it doesn't matter if you're playing a 3-4 or a 4-3... so no just because your OLB is a great pass rusher doesn't mean he's a great 3-4 DE. And Returning... I still wonder how the game really thinks a guy with Speed Below 90 can be a 97 OVR Kick Returner...

I think the analogy you used, speaks to the point he was trying to make.

If you run that same exact play 10 times, it will play out pretty much the same all 10 times. There is no in-game variations that happen. It plays out the same way because the Game Engine is Maxed Out and old.

Also, Speed only deals with how fast an animation is triggered as to give an illusion. In Instant Replay you will see that there is no variation in the running animations between the two, thus why we "Still" see gliding and sliding in the running animation.

Go back and look at some of those Mo-Cap animations and you'll see that barely half the movements in the Mo-Cap transition into in-game animations.

All because the the current Game Engine will not allow/can't handle the detailed movements.

[Ike04]

madden needs to make the rookie combine more evident in this year's release. They also need to fix superstar mode and make it like it used to be back in 06 and 07. They had a decent mode, and instead of buiilding on it they regressed. Bring back the mode we all love ea, the way its supposed to be.

[buckeyesfan27]

here is a rating madden is worst football game ever. there game is not good. NCAA 11 and 12 are so much better.