Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

[spit_bubble]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

I don't agree with this at all. First, difficulty levels can handle this problem perfectly. Neuter the pass rush for the lower difficultly levels, and for the highest difficulty levels, make the pass-rush realistic. That way, the CPU wouldn't have to cheat to make the game difficult at the All-madden level. The game will be difficult enough with only 1-3 seconds to get rid of the football...

Exactly what I was thinking, and it's another reason why MLB The Show is the gold standard of sports video games at the moment. In that game you can make it realistic if you want, or at least very close to real, without it feeling cheap. It's not very fun that way, and probably not a lot of people go that route, but at least it can be done.

[Three Seed]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

Should an official OS article really be basically stating that EA lies to us when they say they're attempting to make a game as realistic as possible?

[jyoung]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

The problem is that good user OL don't hold pressure from bad CPU DL and good user DL don't get pressure on bad CPU OL.

Definitely agree with this. I would add that human OL vs. human DL doesn't seem get much pressure, either.

Basically, the only time there's legitimate pressure in football games is when the CPU's on defense and you're on offense.

[LionsFanNJ]

Definitely agree with this. I would add that human OL vs. human DL doesn't seem get much pressure, either.

Basically, the only time there's legitimate pressure in football games is when the CPU's on defense and you're on offense.

This, and its given me the impression that its used as a crutch to counteract human thought/reaction vs the cpu, and make the game "fun" through offensive play in h2h gameplay.

I'm sure I'm not alone when I say i'd like satisfying tough to score head 2 head games. Devs don't seem to think that's what people want

sent from parts unknown

[TreFacTor]

Points I want to make

1-The pass rush in BackBreaker was defective because you could not make any adjustments for pass protection.

2-They fixed it by making the same adjustment that madden makes and thus making the same mistakes that madden makes. The players attributes no longer mattered at the line of scrimmage.

3-BackBreaker also had a more complex passing system, which required the player to make a read at the line to at least determine where they wanted to go, where the blitz was coming from, and where the hot is. These were all necessary .

4-BackbBreaker hasn't had 20 years to accomplish the most impressive display of physics in a football game and their customization alone trumps madden's first appearance on next gen consoles.

5-By committing the same sins as madden ("holding cages", controlled line interactions, increasing attributes on the fly etc )the devs of BackBreaker did their fan base s disservice. It's patronizing to think we cannot tell the difference.

6- The best overall televised experience and line interactions in a video football game came from 2K5 and can still be displayed in all it's glory in APF 2K8.

While nothing is perfect, it takes more than one outlet to bring the best in any area, smart business to eliminate the competition and buy a championship, but completely bones the consumer. Madden was at it's best when it had competition. I have no idea why that is.

[AceOfSpades1898]

There isnt a sport game on the market that has realistic gameplay. In football people the is the most important position, but in fact it is the offensive line. It would be next to impossible to replicate d-line and o-line interaction. game developers cannot factor in a players desire, how much time and effort put in the week before or how good of coaching he is getting. these elements all play a big part in how players play. we cant make the arguement about why some great players are not dominating as we think they should, because they cant predict the future. what i mean is that we knew Suh was a great player in college, but no one knew he was going to be as dominant as he was. he was dominating pro bowl players. would tom brady or peyton manning be as good without there stellar o-lines that they have. as great as players are we cant replicate how they should be playing on the field or court. Michael Jordan didnt make every shot he attempted....

[MavsFansForLife41]

Realistic line play was in NFL 2k5 and All-Pro Football 2k8. Did any of you play the games?

[lilgame06]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

i also think that if the line play was adjusted, it has to lead to the WR/DB play being adjusted. If the 4-man pass rush is cranked up...while the o-line play is "fixed" (which i believe both should happen to make this more like sunday's), then this has to lead to a better interaction between WRs and their opposers.

I've had plenty of times where I've had tons of time in the pocket, yet Andre Johnson...arguably the best WR in the league...couldnt shake loose a scrub CB who has 97 speed and crappy man coverage capabilities. And i've had times where i have short slants or outs called to elite WRs to get the ball out quick...but that 90+ speed corner with low awareness and man coverage abilities is covering larry fitzgerald like he's making the pro bowl every year.

I think they are forced to give us more time in the pocket because they havent figured out the aspect of WR/DB play...(which of course can be a whole new argument in another thread). If the 4 man pass rush is to be cranked up, the only way to make it possible is for receivers to run their routes with more effectiveness...and for defensive backs to play those routes properly (meaning for them to not run the route before the receiver does...what are they, psychic?).

[CzingerX]

Its "realistic" in 2k8... im just saying...

In the 2K series I have to say it looked amazing and was very dynamic. Why nobody else can pull it off now I dont know.

[videlsports]

Honestly, and objectivly I think all 3 games did well with lineman, 2k, Back breaker,and Madden. What happens is Lineman are more realisticly aware of the surroundings in 2k and Backbreaker. Madden Has tons of moments where the lineman where they sit around waiting for an animation to take place. We all have seen it, an o-lineman looks around for some one to block, and the d-line gets the pass rush or penetration for a loss of yards only to get sucked into an animation with a o-lineman. Gamers want both lines to be more reactive to the situation, than to stand around. I think this is a so-so writeup with some stats, But I think point gamers is making that the time in the pocket is good overall in video games, but we want real reactions to the situation on the field. If the o-line is dominating the d-line on a specific play, they should pancake their man and go to the next man nearest to the ball carrier. This says games are not able to pull of real line play but two games did it already. They are trying to lower our expectations so we can accept a lazy effort.

[JDoze]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

I see the point in this, but they don't have to make a realistic time. Just make the interactions realistic. Make the elite DTs get push up the middle and the DEs get upfield. If the pocket is formed correctly, I don't think the time would be that big of a deal.

[videlsports]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

This article is misleading.

I don't believe the reason line play isn't realistic is because it'd make the game too difficult. I believe the reason is that EA is just unable to replicate line play in their games. Has to do with the fact that things like physics, momentum, height and weight not working correctly.

Honestly if we had a completely 100% true to life game it'd be incredibly difficult. For example think about playcalling. No one on these forums is going to outscheme/outcoach Bill Belichick so the Patriots would be near impossible to beat. That's not the reason the CPU's playcalling logic makes no sense. EA isn't saying to themselves, "Hey we don't wanna make the game too difficult so let's make the CPU call a HB draw on 4th and 11!"

At least I hope not...

EA def has motivation to make to make the game accessible to as many people as possible, but I don't think that should be used as a blanket excuse for their inability to program realistic gameplay.

Exactly Sir I agree.. this is just trying to give excuses

[lofeazy]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

I loved this thread......

I totally argee with the OP saying that BB had the best pass rush in any game before they patched it because of the crying.(This is when I left the game.)To me they should have made these adjustments:

1)The pass rush in BackBreaker was defective because you could not make any adjustments for pass protection.(TreFacTor said it in this thread.I was yelling about it after they killed the pass rush as an answer.)

2)Also, this system didn't allow you to look down the middle of the field and read what the LBs and safeties were doing. Even if you looked at the TE, you really could only see the left or right half of the field. There were many times I would have liked to look down the middle of the field, see how the safeties rolled, where the blitz was coming from, etc. and then decide which side of the field I wanted to go to.(Pokes404)

And BB would have been fine minus the other things that they need to work on.









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[jyoung]

Re: Why Line Play Will Never Be Realistic in Football Games

I've had plenty of times where I've had tons of time in the pocket, yet Andre Johnson...arguably the best WR in the league...couldnt shake loose a scrub CB who has 97 speed and crappy man coverage capabilities. And i've had times where i have short slants or outs called to elite WRs to get the ball out quick...but that 90+ speed corner with low awareness and man coverage abilities is covering larry fitzgerald like he's making the pro bowl every year.

This is one of the reasons I stopped playing Madden this year.

A team in my online franchise division drafted a 97 speed CB with 25 awareness and 45 man coverage rating.

Then he put the 45 man coverage CB on my 95 overall WR Calvin Johnson, and Megatron couldn't break loose from the scrub CB all game.

[MegaBearsFan]

Backbreaker's blocking was not realistic pre-patch. Yeah, the 2 seconds or less that QBs had to throw the ball was realistic, but that was where it stopped. Offensive linemen in Backbreaker simply weren't smart enough to handle the rush. They missed simple reads and made stupid mistakes that no professional player should make. Offensive linemen just didn't make any effort to engage their defenders. Every single one of them just seemed to step in front of the defender and then get spun around or pushed on his butt. Defensive line moves always worked, even against the best offensive linemen. There was no pushing. No jostling. No contest. It was like flipping a coin and instantly knowing which player was going to win.

These problems were compounded by other issues. The camera and controls were certainly an issue. The passing motion that the player had to perform on the joystick took just long enough that even if you reacted in time, the delay between performing the move on the joystick and it actually happening in-game was enough to result in a wobbly-duck interception. Complicating the problems even more were the fact that receiver route-running was fundamentally broken. Receivers did not finish their routes. QBs couldn't lead properly. If you were doing a quick slant, and you threw the ball a split second before the receiver cut (like you're supposed to), then the receiver just runs a streak and the QB throws over his head!

the best counter against an aggressive defense is a quick timing and route-based passing attack. But Backbreaker didn't allow the player to run such an offense because the receiver logic to perform such tasks was completely absent!

The running game would have worked better pre-patch if not for the fact that running backs just crumpled to the ground the moment he gets touched - even if he bumped into his own blocker. If that one thing had been addressed prior to the game's release, the running game would have been much more playable even pre-patch, despite the "realistic" line play. But other problems still existed in the running game. Running backs often got stuck running horizontally instead of vertically, and once that happened, you couldn't see upfield. The camera movements for looking upfield or behind you were jarring and uncomfortable, and when you used them, your player would often change directions because the controls seemed to be based on the camera direction rather than the direction your player was running, so you'd be running off tackle to the right, rotate the camera 90 degrees to the left while still holding the stick to the right, and then your player would turn around and run into the backfield.

overly realistic blocking wasn't the problem with Backbreaker. It was a combination of a lot of things.