Madden Creative Director, Ian Cummings is Leaving Tiburon

[Smoke6]

Re: Madden Creative Director, Ian Cummings is Leaving Tiburon

The console on which they base their engine has nothing to do with the way the games have come out. Yes Blu Ray has more space to fit more content in, but thats not Madden's problem. The problem comes from the way they created their engine, not on the console they created their engine one.

They picked the 360 because it was out first and allowed them to start their next generation games. The original xbox was much more powerful than the ps2 yet the old gen Madden games were all built on the ps2. As a matter of fact, it should be easier for them to create the actual game on the 360 because of the ease of development tools the 360 has over the ps3. Yes the ps3 can output more, but it takes more effort while the 360 make its easier to produce quality content.

Back on topic- I don't see Madden changing very much until the next generation of games. EA put too much effort and money into this engine to just scratch if off and start a new, especially when theres no exact time frame for the next consoles. What if Sony comes out of the blue and announces the PS4 for a release date of November 12-2012. There would be no purpose in creating a new current engine when the next generation console is out. Yes this is a far fetched idea, but theres no telling when the next big machines will be out and for them to start anew and use two years to create a new engine that can fit better in the parameters of real physics would take tooo long.

The best they can do now is to do what they've been currently doing, trying to add to this current engine as best as possible. The next creative director can only do so much being limited by the engine as Ian was.

Bolded,

Now you get and dont even know it!

Your last paragraph, is BS, for the sole reason that each version madden is missing at least 5 features from its previous version. Run to daylight, vision cone, gang tackling, Offensive PI, the controls, practice mode etc etc.

We dont even have a pre season schedule for online franchise games so we can weed out our draft picks and fully customize our teams correctly.

How about some true intergration with their NCAA counterpart for online dynasties importing there classes to Madden online franchises from the same group of guys involved in the leagues. Now that we have more time with NCAA this year, that should work out swell if it happend. These 2 games should always be interconnected in some way besides importing draft classes.

There should be a way during the systems can link your franchise/dynasties together with draft prospect news feeds and all. In know this sounds like a wish list but this is where I thought this gen would have taken us already and it hasnt.

Madden is just behind this gen, im running out of hope!

[Hooe]

Re: Madden Creative Director, Ian Cummings is Leaving Tiburon

(challenge comparison)

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/cEDmEOiwJnE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MIyEa9-2DMY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It's obvious to me that when both games are in motion that they aren't the same. There's no comparison with regard to the player interactions in general; for example, the PS2-era games didn't have a concept of a three-person interaction and branching animations, and did not utilize the new locomotion mechanic which completely changed how players move on the field.

It's obvious to me, having played both games, that they play differently. The last-gen games to me are no longer fun due to the advances EA has made this generation.

It's obvious to me that EA actually did completely rebuild their game on the field. The two games are similar in that they are both football and they both share the button-passing mechanic.

If you are specifically talking about a comparison between Franchise modes, the last-gen still has more depth, but that wasn't what you were comparing via your screenshots.

[Cre8]

Re: Madden Creative Director, Ian Cummings is Leaving Tiburon

I hope Ian's tongue is freed up during this move, because I'm sure deep down he wants to respond to lots of the Madden 11 criticism and defend himself. Lets hope he isn't tied down by some agreement with EA to not talk about them for x years in exchange for some parting benefit. I'd love to hear SOMEONE freed up to discuss the process.

That would be very interesting. I think it depends on the terms of his departure though. If there is some sort of non-disclosure, I wouldn't be surprised.

However, what is to stop someone that leaves under bad terms to create an anonymous blog that exposes a company?

[GGEden]

Re: Madden Creative Director, Ian Cummings is Leaving Tiburon

I don't see Madden changing very much until the next generation of games. EA put too much effort and money into this engine to just scratch if off and start a new, especially when theres no exact time frame for the next consoles. What if Sony comes out of the blue and announces the PS4 for a release date of November 12-2012. There would be no purpose in creating a new current engine when the next generation console is out. Yes this is a far fetched idea, but theres no telling when the next big machines will be out and for them to start anew and use two years to create a new engine that can fit better in the parameters of real physics would take tooo long.

Not having a dig at you, but that's what the PS3 and X360 supposedly are....next-gen. Indeed they are. Look at Backbreaker's physics. That's this gen, EA could easily push the envelope but doesn't.

[mva5580]

Re: Madden Creative Director, Ian Cummings is Leaving Tiburon

I hope Ian's tongue is freed up during this move, because I'm sure deep down he wants to respond to lots of the Madden 11 criticism and defend himself. Lets hope he isn't tied down by some agreement with EA to not talk about them for x years in exchange for some parting benefit. I'd love to hear SOMEONE freed up to discuss the process.

He'll be able to speak in generalities, and that's pretty much it. He won't get into specifics, nor should he if he wants to continue working in the industry. We all have to "play the game" to some degree if we want gainful employment for ourselves, and he won't be any different. Your current/future employers won't look too kindly on you speaking overly negative of a past employer publicly.

[Smoke6]

Re: Madden Creative Director, Ian Cummings is Leaving Tiburon

Madden 10's feature set was laid out on the product "road map" by EA before Ian took over. That's no slight on Ian's work or abilities, I'm just merely pointing out that the feature set was not "his", so to speak. I also think it would be unfair to say Madden 11's feature set was "his" either. You guys simply have to understand how little "power" the devs have versus the long-term product roadmap laid out by the people above the devs. (Most of whom pay WAY TOO MUCH ATTENTION to the narrow minded surveys EA pushes out there regularly). The devs have to jump to the product road-map marching orders, whatever those feature sets are being pushed and agreed to by committee. ONLY if they have the time or man hours AFTER the implementation of the pre-determined road-map features do they have the slightest bit of leeway into adding a "pet idea", and only then if they can justify the spare man hours (if any remain, that is.) Honestly, Ian gets both too much credit for Madden 10, and too much blame for Madden 11. My view of the process from talking to the devs at Tiburon is that they are the captains of a ship that is on autopilot in terms of the "destination". They are only allowed the slightest "course corrections", and even then they have to plead for the leeway to do so. Their creative freedom is INCREDIBLY limited with EA's structure.

I hope Ian's tongue is freed up during this move, because I'm sure deep down he wants to respond to lots of the Madden 11 criticism and defend himself. Lets hope he isn't tied down by some agreement with EA to not talk about them for x years in exchange for some parting benefit. I'd love to hear SOMEONE freed up to discuss the process.

So what you're saying is, is that a group of guys who may have never developed a game in there life, tells the devs how to make there game! They give them a budget and a time frame for release of there game along with this, and regardless what the devs say or do, they have to follow this script?

Then we shouldnt have really any features at all besides tackle, run, throw, catch, spin and maybe a juke or jump button. Besides picking plays, this is very hard to believe given that the devs are introducing things that are apart of football and have been missing from the game, either completely or recently along with the other gimmicks like Spec catch, and weapons.

I too am hoping someone comes forward of all this and spills the beans, it would put alot of speculation and talk to rest and may ease the frustration of some of us gamers.

[Hooe]

Re: Madden Creative Director, Ian Cummings is Leaving Tiburon

Your last paragraph, is BS, for the sole reason that each version madden is missing at least 5 features from its previous version.

It's common knowledge in game development circles that the XBOX360 and the XDK is a much more developer-friendly environment than the PS3 and its equivalent. The XBOX operating system is a derivative of Windows, and the graphics library is DirectX which is more-or-less standard on any Windows-based gaming PC. The PS3 is all proprietary stuff which is much harder to work with, and the system architecture of the XBOX360 is also much more similar to a PC than the PS3 is.

Your assertion that EA is using the XBOX as a user-side "excuse" is flat-out wrong. Further, the things you claim are "missing" are either in the game or were intentionally scrapped. For example, practice mode, gang tackling, and offensive pass interference are all in the game. The vision cone was scrapped because it was a poor feature that was clunky to use. The change in the control scheme from last-gen to this was intentional.

[marshallfever]

Re: Madden Creative Director, Ian Cummings is Leaving Tiburon

Bolded,

Now you get and dont even know it!

Your last paragraph, is BS, for the sole reason that each version madden is missing at least 5 features from its previous version. Run to daylight, vision cone, gang tackling, Offensive PI, the controls, practice mode etc etc.

We dont even have a pre season schedule for online franchise games so we can weed out our draft picks and fully customize our teams correctly.

How about some true intergration with their NCAA counterpart for online dynasties importing there classes to Madden online franchises from the same group of guys involved in the leagues. Now that we have more time with NCAA this year, that should work out swell if it happend. These 2 games should always be interconnected in some way besides importing draft classes.

There should be a way during the systems can link your franchise/dynasties together with draft prospect news feeds and all. In know this sounds like a wish list but this is where I thought this gen would have taken us already and it hasnt.

Madden is just behind this gen, im running out of hope!

I agree with what your saying, i just don't think you can fault the systems when its down to the developers. You can't blame the 360 or ps3 or even Wii for the games that are on them, its the developers who have to learn the console and squeeze as much as possible from each console. Everything that you named missing isn't the fault of the console running them but the development team deciding to remove them for reasons unknown to us the public.

[marshallfever]

Re: Madden Creative Director, Ian Cummings is Leaving Tiburon

Not having a dig at you, but that's what the PS3 and X360 supposedly are....next-gen. Indeed they are. Look at Backbreaker's physics. That's this gen, EA could easily push the envelope but doesn't.

Yes i know what you mean, but a usual console cycle last about 5 years or so, this is the first time that we haven't heard anything at all about a "next generation" console beyond at least 4 years of the current consoles.

I just don't seem EA tossing away their engine for a new one. I completely agree that they can develop a much better engine truly based on physics like Backbreaker this current generation, but doing that means they have to take their loss on this current engine which i don't see them doing. They've invested too much time and money in this current engine (06-11) which is 5 years. They poured millions and millions of money and time these last five years into their current engine. I just don't see them discarding it until the next batch of consoles come out.

Like they've done these past 5 years, they're going to continue to built on this engine until the time comes when they HAVE to get rid of it. And the way this current engine it built, it just don't have the capability to do what we the fans what it to do.

[Hooe]

Re: Madden Creative Director, Ian Cummings is Leaving Tiburon

Yes i know what you mean, but a usual console cycle last about 5 years or so, this is the first time that we haven't heard anything at all about a "next generation" console beyond at least 4 years of the current consoles.

I just don't seem EA tossing away their engine for a new one. I completely agree that they can develop a much better engine truly based on physics like Backbreaker this current generation, but doing that means they have to take their loss on this current engine which i don't see them doing. They've invested too much time and money in this current engine (06-11) which is 5 years. They poured millions and millions of money and time these last five years into their current engine. I just don't see them discarding it until the next batch of consoles come out.

Like they've done these past 5 years, they're going to continue to built on this engine until the time comes when they HAVE to get rid of it. And the way this current engine it built, it just don't have the capability to do what we the fans what it to do.

I doubt EA Sports scraps their tech upon the jump to next-gen either, at least not initially, given that much of their baseline tech is shared amongst their different games.

[iBlievN5]

Re: Madden Creative Director, Ian Cummings is Leaving Tiburon

[/B]

Please explain how is that this is impossible? But before you hurt yourself trying, i will help you.

Madden from the PS1 to PS2 had features out of this world,the Xbox version was way more polished GFX wise and looks exactly how the game we are playing now looks minus all those features.

Leaguedaddy wasnt created for nothing, it was a tool to help assist gamers with something that EA felt was so trivial and time consuming to get into the game themselves just like Adam ( i think thats his name) has done with myleaguemanager.

Take a look at some images from the Madden 06 with Mcnabb on the cover and then look at the game Madden 11 and tell me you see something built from the ground up after 08's version.

its like Night and day...



Madden 06 above



Madden 11 above.

So tell me do you still stand by your statement that madden 11 doesnt look like this in HD from the XBOX....

graphics took a mild step back for 60 FPS.

[lofeazy]

Re: Madden Creative Director, Ian Cummings is Leaving Tiburon

Hey smoke6 can you do a close up of madden 11 like you did madden6?(I think you are right it did take a step back.)

[LiquorLogic]

Re: Ian Cummings is out

Well let's say it's both. While I agree with you that Madden got off to a rocky start when they rushed to deliver Madden 06 on a short cycle, they also had to make much higher payments to the NFL that same year which I believe cut into the development funds.

Also as people often point out, this game is not developed on 1 "engine". Every year they choose which ones of the multiple "engines" to rip out and redo. By the 5th development cycle (Madden 11) there should be almost no trace of the slapped together abomination that was Madden 06 code.

Some more reasons I believe my theory to be true:

1. EA now typically spends two or three times as much on marketing and advertising as it does on developing a game. A game like Madden has no comparable game like it and no alternative football game. This is simply funds that are being denied to the development team.

2.EA is a company that is unstable financially. I don't believe they see a benefit to dumping large amounts of money into Madden development. Football fans will purchase even if the game is subpar. A more practical approach is to get the gamers to pay additional funds for things like Madden moments and AFL packs. What EA is really out to do is increase the amount of casual gamers. They make the game quicker, simpler and more arcade to try to achieve that goal.

3. People always point out, the Madden series is improving but just not fast enough and lags behind the Show and NBA2k. Could it be that those games just have more funds for their developers to work with?

4.Ever noticed how the game improvements always seem half baked? For instance, they add Gus Johnson but he sounds broken and Chris calls him "Tom". Ian himself came on after 11 dropped and said they needed new equipment but spent the money for the sound budget securing the rights to the stadium songs we hear in Madden 11 instead. This tells me there are times when Ian is being shortchanged in his attempts to improve the game.

5.Those same stadium sounds were held out of Madden 10. Again, I don't believe this is Ian's fault. I think EA made a poor decision and chose to deny those things to us because they felt they already had enough improvments to sell Madden 10.



These types of business moves will tie the hands of any designer whether it is David Ortiz, Ian Cummings or some new replacement. That's why I don't believe Madden will see a major change if Ian leaves.

Sorry for the long post. If you got this far, thanks for reading.

I know that EA isn't going spend all they can spend on game-play development, but do you honestly think that 2k devoted more funds to the development of APF ? Seriously, even though the game-play was excellent, that game was basically a smoother version of 2k5. Maybe it comes down to talent, and that's where EA is being cheap. Maybe they, EA, are considering paying a little more to get developers with more talent.

Also, I find it hard to believe that a start up company designing facebook games pays more than Tiburon. Could I be wrong ? Yeah, but that just seems fishy to me.

[lofeazy]

Re: Madden Creative Director, Ian Cummings is Leaving Tiburon

Thanks,

As I browse this forum, I notice that EA has the "25 new Plays" in some threads and its puzzling that most people have forgotten just how dumb downed madden 11's play books were. Now they're being introduced as "NEW PLAYS' is just puzzling to me and tell me that marketing really thinks we are dumb or the 25-40 yr old crowd doesnt play madden anymore and know one under that will notice.

Great post.To bad nobody will bring this up in a interview are in a review of the game.

[bigfnjoe96]

Re: Madden Creative Director, Ian Cummings is Leaving Tiburon

Hey smoke6 can you do a close up of madden 11 like you did madden 6 to me the only differnets is better graphics on the madden 11 but the game almost looks the same.

Straight from my TV.. Madden 11












Sorry but that looks nothing like an original xbox game