Madden NFL 12 Features Major Change in Defensive Secondary AI

[kjcheezhead]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Features Major Change in Defensive Secondary AI

Good post. I agree somewhat w/your point re 2K5 martyrdom - I've said many times Tiburon probably did more to raise 2K5 awareness than 2K themselves ever did on their own. I think it's a mistake to think it's people that think "2K's gameplay/AI was vastly superior" because you can really lump the older Madden/NCAA's in w/that argument also. I thought better of it, but the other day I started to post videos of NCAA 06 (PS2) and APF to juxtapose a point I was trying to make. It's not like it's only old 2K fans "hating" on Madden/NCAA, because I'm sure there are many that actually like the games now. Just as I'm sure there are old Madden/NCAA fans that don't like what the new games have become. It goes both ways. I find one of the more interesting things that's occurred over the past few years is how w/no competition, people are actually trying to draw sharp contrasts between Madden and NCAA even though they're essentially the same game, made by the same studio. How many people are out there saying "NCAA is great, Madden sucks"?

Very true. There are a lot of ps2 madden fans that still find the ps2 modes and features to be deeper than current games that get lumped into the bring back 2k group. Even the youtube/sim standard crowd is viewed as EA bashers who just want to see 2k come back when in fact the most well known of them, Apex, is a fan of Madden 2004s animations and features like the playbook editor.

I have been accused of having a 2k agenda several times as well when my favorite game of all time is actually Madden 08 last gen.

Your point about posters saying NCAA is great/Madden sucks is good too. I found this site as Madden 10 info was dropping and seems at that time NCAA 10 was seen as Madden 09.5. A year later posters claim its the greatest game the football world has ever seen and has always been superior to Madden which is absolute garbage. I just don't see how anyone can love one and hate the other either. They play very similar to me.

[K_GUN]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Features Major Change in Defensive Secondary AI

as long as DB AI doesn't resort to cheating

[kjcheezhead]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Features Major Change in Defensive Secondary AI

as long as DB AI doesn't resort to cheating

Well here is a shot of man coverage from the NCAA gameplay vid. The wr is trailing the db and the db is mirroring the wrs moves. It doesn't look good to me at all.

GIFSoup

[roadman]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Features Major Change in Defensive Secondary AI

Well here is a shot of man coverage from the NCAA gameplay vid. The wr is trailing the db and the db is mirroring the wrs moves. It doesn't look good to me at all.

GIFSoup

Yeah, I saw that too. Hopefully, it will be tuned before shipment.

Also, the videos shown were still a WIP.

[Senator Palmer]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Features Major Change in Defensive Secondary AI

That vid doesn't horrify me as much as if I were looking at the DB mirror a deep dig route, which was the huge issue last year before NCAA 11 was tuned.

On that one, the DB is on top of the WR because, I'm hoping, he was in a deep third zone coverage like in cover 3, and the WR just can't motor pass him. Then he stops and tries to make a play on the ball. I don't think that vid in itself represents a huge issue, but a lack of available animations to represent the DB chopping down his steps and gathering himself to reach up to make the swat.

[jmood88]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Features Major Change in Defensive Secondary AI

I'm not getting excited about anything until I actually see it work.

[BlueNGold]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Features Major Change in Defensive Secondary AI

Your point about posters saying NCAA is great/Madden sucks is good too. I found this site as Madden 10 info was dropping and seems at that time NCAA 10 was seen as Madden 09.5. A year later posters claim its the greatest game the football world has ever seen and has always been superior to Madden which is absolute garbage. I just don't see how anyone can love one and hate the other either. They play very similar to me.

This doesn't even make any sense.

People aren't supposed to enjoy NCAA if they don't like Madden? They're two different games. That's like saying if you don't like NHL, you shouldn't like FIFA because they're both developed by EA Canada.

[ch46647]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Features Major Change in Defensive Secondary AI

I'm not getting excited about anything until I actually see it work.

This!

EA are the kings of telling us how great things are without SHOWING us how great they are. I loved Madden on PS2 and prior. However, this generation has been nothing but a complete letdown for me and many of my friends who played Madden religiously.

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Features Major Change in Defensive Secondary AI

I love the sound of this guy thinking and all. I hope the D is working alot this year and all. But please for the love of god take out the AI mirror imaging WR routes crap. Other then that it sounds good. Can't wait until Thursday for all the info and gameplay.

Agree. I say if the defender is doing a great job covering the receiver, and jumping his route. Please lets make sense out of it by having the defender look at his receiver the whole time , and then look back for the ball when the receiver does.

[BlueNGold]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Features Major Change in Defensive Secondary AI

This!

EA are the kings of telling us how great things are without SHOWING us how great they are. I loved Madden on PS2 and prior. However, this generation has been nothing but a complete letdown for me and many of my friends who played Madden religiously.

Agreed with both of you guys.

I'm optimistic this year, but I'm not making a decision on whether or not I'm buying the game until I see videos and play the demo and see that certain past annoyances have been fixed.

I stupidly bought Madden 11 last year because I was in an online franchise carrying over from Madden 10, even though you could tell from the videos that it wasn't a big leap forward like Madden 10 was, so I'm not making that mistake again.

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Features Major Change in Defensive Secondary AI

Well here is a shot of man coverage from the NCAA gameplay vid. The wr is trailing the db and the db is mirroring the wrs moves. It doesn't look good to me at all.

GIFSoup

Wait a minute. A db can recognize the wr is running a fly pattern , and then in turn run his coverage to play the fly pattern. Why is this a troubling video to see???

I do not agree.

[Thinking Out Loud]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Features Major Change in Defensive Secondary AI

Your point about posters saying NCAA is great/Madden sucks is good too. I found this site as Madden 10 info was dropping and seems at that time NCAA 10 was seen as Madden 09.5. A year later posters claim its the greatest game the football world has ever seen and has always been superior to Madden which is absolute garbage. I just don't see how anyone can love one and hate the other either. They play very similar to me.

Granted, they play very similar but they FEEL very different. I think the main factor that accounts for some of the same people that love NCAA 11, hating Madden 11, is because of immersion. NCAA 11 does a much better job of giving the gamer a feeling of playing collegiate football than Madden 11 does of playing in the NFL.

I think that's also why so many people look upon past football games so favorably. When people are frustrated about past features missing, they are frustrated about missing how those past features help immerse them in the game. Graphically, next-gen football has blown last-gen football out the water, as they should have but immersion wise, not so much.

The more immersion a video game can provide the gamer, the more likely it is for most gamers to miss and/or overlook that games short comings.

[Armor and Sword]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Features Major Change in Defensive Secondary AI

Granted, they play very similar but they FEEL very different. I think the main factor that accounts for some of the same people that love NCAA 11, hating Madden 11, is because of immersion. NCAA 11 does a much better job of giving the gamer a feeling of playing collegiate football than Madden 11 does of playing in the NFL.

I think that's also why so many people look upon past football games so favorably. When people are frustrated about past features missing, they are frustrated about missing how those past features help immerse them in the game. Graphically, next-gen football has blown last-gen football out the water, as they should have but immersion wise, not so much.

The more immersion a video game can provide the gamer, the more likely it is for most gamers to miss and/or overlook that games short comings.

Winner winner chicken dinner.

I think those of us that are Madden fans (I am talking 20 years here) felt NCAA 2011 played a tighter game of football but more importantly immersed us into the College atmosphere, had a deep dynasty mode and online dynasty was also fantastic. NCAA 2011 is a great game.

Madden 2011 while on the field with very good sliders, and cpu game planning plays a good game of football, the immersion and presentation as well as the very spreadsheet stale franchise mode fell really short and kept the game from being great. I would overlook some flaws on the field if the game really immersed me in the NFL and kept the franchise mode a must play year round like the other games I am playing now (which are insanely good).

Again I hope Madden hits the ball out of the park. I would love nothing more than to be in love with Madden again like I was on the PS2 versions.

[RGiles36]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Features Major Change in Defensive Secondary AI

"significantly moved" is, of course, a relative perspective for multiple reasons. Lets not be coy and dance around the issue. For people who feel as is 2K's gameplay/A.I. was/is vastly superior to Madden's the movement may not be significant in their eyes.

Ian often got caught up in a verbal battle of trying to "shut people up about 2K forever", or something to that effect. That was a losing battle for many reasons, not the least of which is, its really tough to defeat a game that was turned into a martyr and/or ghost.

Cam is probably just focusing on Madden's improvement vs. itself, so within that context he may be 100% justified in making the statements he has made. Taking this tact will satiate the vast majority of football gamers. The strongest 2K advocates may not find those efforts to be good enough, but I don't think he's going to concern himself with that segment of the gaming public.

Great post!

[Thinking Out Loud]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Features Major Change in Defensive Secondary AI

You (seem to) take the viewpoint that because of what we've seen the past 5-7 years, we need to adjust our expectations. I take the viewpoint that because EA has chosen to corner the football gaming market for themselves, that I'm not going to lower my expectations. I would think most core sports fans don't expect their games to be overhauled every year and will buy those games yearly, as long as the games have a solid to stellar foundation to begin with. When looking at baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer, boxing, etc. most people can say games in those genres made a generational leap at some point this generation. Madden/NCAA have made progressive leaps, that much is certain. But until it makes that generational leap I don't think it's wrong to have high expectations for the games. Especially when they've placed themselves in the position to make themselves the the only ones available

I respect your viewpoint but I believe it oversimplifies the situation. Each consumer should set their expectation level according to how small an improvement they are willing to settle for before they will not buy and how great an improvement they are demanding before they will buy the game. That's each consumers "sweet spot" to decide buy or no buy and I think that's the majority of people that buy the game. I don't think there are too many people that compulsive, that just go out and buy NCAA/Madden every year, even when they get absolutely NO enjoyment from it. Likewise, I don't think there are too many people that are so repulsed by these titles every year, they refuse to buy, no matter how much the games improve.
(Of course there are the extremes on both sides but you can't have a reasonable discussion about an unreasonable position)

What I have an issue with, are people after they make their choice on buying or not, vilifying others for their choice. I think the vast majority of gamers base their expectations for and ultimately there purchase decision of NCAA/Madden, on how much enjoyment they believe they can get out of these games. For some, presentation is essential for enjoyment, for others it's uniform details, gameplay upgrades, playbook customization, franchise upgrades, all the above or whatever.

Like I said in another thread MOST people that buy NCAA/Madden are not naive EA cultist and most who don't are not bitter EA haters. We are ALL just trying to make the best of a bad situation which is the lack of direct competition in licensed football games.

Can't we all just get along? LOL