Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

[LiquorLogic]

Re: Phil Frazier the Latest to Leave EA Sports Tiburon Studio

Am I the only one that finds it funny when people who have never written one line of code pass off their opinion on game engines as some sort of fact. What's even funnier is those opinions aren't even educated guesses.

It's almost as funny as troof chasers trying to give lessons on physics.

But it's nice to see the usual group of Madden trolls show up to the party.

Am I the only one who gets annoyed when people, who have programming experience, turn up their noses at people who don't ? It's as if you think people need experience in software development to figure out that if a game ran better and did more things, on a inferior platform, then something is wrong with the engine, or the people developing a game on that engine.

It's funny how people only reveal their programming experience when they want to tell another person that they don't know what they're talking about. Rarely do these people use their experience in programming, software development, or whatever, to provide insight as to why Madden is years behind where it should be.

[adembroski]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

dunno...I haven't like the game in over 6 years (the entire life span of "next gen")...any change is good as far as I'm concerned. When I look back I still to this day shake my head over the decisions that have been made about the direction of the game and the things they have chosen to work on over the years. I think it's interesting that this is the first year where I'm actually considering getting Madden (based on the videos) and it just so happens to coincide with the exit of Ian and now this guy...coincidence? Maybe.

Not a coincidence at all that the first Madden you're interested in after 6 years is the one when Ian and Phil had 3 years to put their mark on the game. Not a coincidence at all.

Ian took over as Lead Designer, and Phil as Senior Producer just prior to the release of Madden 09... Madden 09 was still firmly a David Ortiz production. For Madden 10, the team bit off a bit more than it could chew in one cycle, but you can start to see the creative direction. Madden 11 had Real Assignment AI and Locomotion, two very big technologies and bring it just a bit closer to being sim, and then you have Madden 12, where our focus has been eliminating suction and really focusing on presentation.

Now, to sit here and say it was all Ian and Phil would be wrong. It leaves out the efforts of dozens of engineers, artists, designers, and testers, all of whom have contributed to where Madden has come and where its going. I've said before, one of Ian's greatest legacies is going to be his committment to creating tools that will allow us to do more year over year going forward. One of Phil's greatest legacies is going to be one of leadership and direction that put this team on the right path.

Madden 13 and going forward are going to be awesome games, and it's unfortunate that Ian and Phil are going to be seen as the people who were holding us back simply because of the timing of their departure. The truth, however, is that where we go from here owes a lot to the path they put is on.

It bares pointing out that Madden 12 is really "Year 2" in Ian's 3 year plan, as Madden 11 ran into unforeseen difficulties in production that kept it from being the YoY leap from M10 that it was supposed to be. Still, some of the technological improvements on M11 are going to be central to the overall push we make for the next few years. Again, Loco and RAI are both huge advances in Madden in general, and both need continual improvement, but they're a foundation to work from and, more importantly, an example of a new thinking at EA that hasn't changed with Ian and Phil's departure.

[Only1LT]

Re: Phil Frazier the Latest to Leave EA Sports Tiburon Studio

Am I the only one who gets annoyed when people, who have programming experience, turn up their noses at people who don't ? It's as if you think people need experience in software development to figure out that if a game ran better and did more things, on a inferior platform, then something is wrong with the engine, or people developing a game on that engine.

It's funny how people only reveal their programming experience when they want to tell another person that they don't no what they're talking about. Rarely do these people use their programming, software development, or whatever, to provide insight as to why Madden is years behind where it should be.

I have programming experience (C#/C++, and picked up Java because it is extremely similar to C#) but I don't turn my nose to anyone's opinion of the game because of it, and I rarely mention it. If someone says something that isn't correct to my knowledge, I'll just let thm know that that particular comment isn't correct, and explain why.

I know what you mean though.

[bucky60]

Re: Phil Frazier the Latest to Leave EA Sports Tiburon Studio

Am I the only one who gets annoyed when people, who have programming experience, turn up their noses at people who don't ? It's as if you think people need experience in software development to figure out that if a game ran better and did more things, on a inferior platform, then something is wrong with the engine, or people developing a game on that engine.

It's funny how people only reveal their programming experience when they want to tell another person that they don't no what they're talking about.

I have 30+ years of very heavy lifting Software Design and Programming experience (literally dozens of languages from public sector (business) languages to DOD to assembly) and I 100% agree with you. When I read bkrich83 post, the first thing I though of was how much programming experience does he have. If he doesn't, then he has no business making the comment he made. If he does, he would realize that if things would have been designed and programmed correctly, a new game engine could have been written with most of the prev gen franchise features ported over (with some coding changes).

I also agree 100% that you don't need a Comp Sci/Math degree (as I have) and 30+ years (yeah I'm and old guy, I remember playing XOR football) in the software design business to be able to tell that a game is not even close to where it should be.

I think your dissatisfaction and criticism is warranted. I'm skeptical, but staying open minded about 2012.

Take Care dude.

[GGEden]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

Also, when/how was OL a user controlled position?

It was either M08 or M09, you could switch to a FB, TE, HB, or OLman (if im remembering correctly), pre-snap, them having a blocking assignment, and you would control that player in that play, leaving the QB to be CPU-controlled, then you could switch to the HB (rushing) or a receiver to catch or just stay as the blocker.

That's something that should stay in the game. But I have a few other ideas too...

One idea for instance, is where you have more OL options pre-snap. One would be like hot-routing receivers, except you hot-route individual players on the OL to specifically block certain defenders. As well as a little deeper run-blocking and pass-protection schemes that can be brought up via the d-pad - simple diagrams, like another layer of play-calling screen.

And with that...Id finally give OL some much due love by featuring a top OLman on the cover of M13, say.

[bucky60]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

How you doing Adem, I'm an OLD MM'er. Good to see (hear) you. Everything you say may be true, but as a consumer, all we see is the final product, and Madden has been a HUGE disappointment. It's hard to argue against that Adem. NFL Video Football gaming was set back by about a half a decade. Inexcusable.

I loved Head Coach, though it had the same gameplay flaws that madden had. I had the first HC and absolutely loved it for a first year game. Then, to have the next year HC not be on the PC and get mad at EA all over again. Especially when I heard how much better the second year of HC was (didn't have a console at the time).

I think 2012 may be the first year on the next gen that actually exceeds some of the features from 7 years ago. That's a shame. I'm at least somewhat interested this year (GO PACKERS)

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Phil Frazier the Latest to Leave EA Sports Tiburon Studio

I have 30+ years of very heavy lifting Software Design and Programming experience (literally dozens of languages from public sector (business) languages to DOD to assembly) and I 100% agree with you. When I read bkrich83 post, the first thing I though of was how much programming experience does he have. If he doesn't, then he has no business making the comment he made. If he does, he would realize that if things would have been designed and programmed correctly, a new game engine could have been written with most of the prev gen franchise features ported over (with some coding changes).

I also agree 100% that you don't need a Comp Sci/Math degree (as I have) and 30+ years (yeah I'm and old guy, I remember playing XOR football) in the software design business to be able to tell that a game is not even close to where it should be.

I think your dissatisfaction and criticism is warranted. I'm skeptical, but staying open minded about 2012.

Take Care dude.

I've been doing software development for 16 years for a product that has 800,000 seats. There is one thing you never say which I heard from the Madden team on several occasions.

Never make excuses to the customer. "That's really hard", "It takes a long time", etc. etc. That's just opening the door to embarrass yourself. Yes, developing GOOD software is hard, but that's why you get paid what you get paid. You are expected to do it and do it in a timely manner. No excuses. Yeah, I realize you are putting in tons of hours, working hard and it can be frustrating to hear the complaints and the criticism. You have to put yourself in the customer's shoes. They don't want to hear that crap nor should they care. If you had to re-write Madden because the code was a disaster, that's not the customer's fault. They don't care who was running things and what not. They shouldn't care, it's your company and your product and quite frankly, it hasn't been a good product for a long time.

Just because people on here don't have programming experience, doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about.

[roadman]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

No offense, I think you're a cool guy, but I see you do this quite a bit.

EDIT: I really mean it that I think you're a cool guy. Maybe a little overly positive when we need to be critical. Differing opinions are good on a message board.

If that's how you perceive me, I'll try to cut back a bit. I didn't think I come right out and use the word wrong, but I'll consider to look it over before I hit send next time.

[K_GUN]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

for the guys that are (annually) disappointed with madden....why not update your 2k5 rosters and go about your business?...don't have an xbox?...go buy one...instead of spending $ on madden.

dropping in here every summer and pointing out what everyone who's ever played a football videogame already knows (7 times over ) seems pointless....doesn't it?

[Only1LT]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

for the guys that are (annually) disappointed with madden....why not update your 2k5 rosters and go about your business?...don't have an xbox?...go buy one...instead of spending $ on madden.

dropping in here every summer and pointing out what everyone who's ever played a football videogame already knows (7 times over ) seems pointless....doesn't it?

Nice to see you want to keep the lines of communication open lol.

I don't make videos. Don't have an agenda other than talking about two of my fav past times. Football and video games. I come on this forum, and the many other forums I frequent to talk about the entity that the forum was created for. Sometimes good. Sometimes bad. I'm just here for the discussion.

I've said a thousand times, I don't come on here to get my ideas in the game. If they see the issue and do something about it, great. If not, I still think that the exchange of ideas is enjoyable.

[bucky60]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

If that's how you perceive me, I'll try to cut back a bit. I didn't think I come right out and use the word wrong, but I'll consider to look it over before I hit send next time.

And......Like I said, I think your a good guy.

[Scottdau]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

Well, I am not a programmer, but to me if you can't see that Madden 12 looks a lot better than Madden 11. I don't know what to say. Ian and Phil have left their mark on Madden and more important on Madden 12 and I have not been this pumped for Madden in a long time. Instead of pointing out the short comings, why not enjoy the things this game does right. But again I am not a programmer, so I am easy to please.

[bucky60]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

for the guys that are (annually) disappointed with madden....why not update your 2k5 rosters and go about your business?...don't have an xbox?...go buy one...instead of spending $ on madden.

Not really a reasonable expectation a consumer should have to have.

dropping in here every summer and pointing out what everyone who's ever played a football videogame already knows (7 times over ) seems pointless....doesn't it?

Yes it is. Maybe, after enough criticism and drop in sales, the game developer will change direction and actually get the game as it should have been. The criticism is a positive.

[Only1LT]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

Well, I am not a programmer, but to me if you can't see that Madden 12 looks a lot better than Madden 11. I don't know what to say. Ian and Phil have left their mark on Madden and more important on Madden 12 and I have not been this pumped for Madden in a long time. Instead of pointing out the short comings, why not enjoy the things this game does right. But again I am not a programmer, so I am easy to please.

I would never say that 12 doen't look to be an improvement from 11. The extent of that improvement though, or even if it is an improvement at all, is all opinion.

You think it looks a lot better? I think it looks a little better. Someone might think that the improvement is so small that it is basically the same as 11. None of those opinions are fact. Regardless of your programming experience.

[Scottdau]

Re: Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

Constructive criticism is fine with me, but attacking devs and bitching and complaining is taking it to far. Especially when no one is forcing you to buy the game.