Gates vs Witten

**bkrich83** · 07-21-2011, 05:55 PM

Re: Gates vs Witten

Originally posted by R0M0mentum09

1st ignore my avatar as I'm as unbiased as they come.

The release of 99 overall ratings for Madden NFL 12 has recently sparked much debate. This is one that caught my eye.

Who's the better overall TE?

Witten had a slightly better statistical season than Gates (44 more catches though). It should also be noted that Gates missed 6-7 games (still put up noteworthy stats) and Jason Witten had Jon Kitna under center for over half the season (Impressive feats for both!)

My assessment. . .

Athleticism/Measurables: *Gates* by a land slide

Hands: *Witten* 4th TE to ever reach 600 catches and did it at the fastest pace ever. Witten is the only current TE on pace to break Tony Gonzalez TE catch record. Vernon Davis was quoted "Jason Witten possesses the best hands of any WR/TE in the NFL".

Route Running: *Witten* Gates can be a bit lazy here as his incredible athleticism allows him to be, Witten on the other hand lacks speed/burst and only gets open by running a crisp route.

Blocking: *Witten* Witten is in someways hurt by his blocking ability, he gets limited targets in the redzone due to his teams use of him as a blocker (explains Wittens lack of TD's compared to other "receiving" TE's).

Better Overall TE: *Witten*

Madden OVR ratings: 98 OVR for both.

Your thoughts?.

Really not sure how you could come up with Witten having better hands or running better routes than Gates. Norv Turner has said Gates runs routes like Henry Ellard which if you know him is his highest praise. He has routinely beaten #1 CB's on routes. Ask Champ Bailey about Gates. I don't see Witten drawing the top CB ever. Gates gets it frequently.

Hands not sure how you quantified this. Witten is a hell of a player but in the pass game Gates simply makes plays no TE in the league is capable.

**shnuskis** · 07-21-2011, 06:47 PM

Re: Gates vs Witten

I have no issue with them being rated the same but it takes Wittens blocking to bring him up to Gates since he is more dangerous in the passing game. (Thats not a knock by the way, he is fantastic.)

**SIMstyle** · 07-21-2011, 06:49 PM

Re: Gates vs Witten

ur pretty passionate about this one huh? me and a friend rate players as a hobby since Madden's ratings are so bad and here's my .02...we usually look at the last 3 years to determine an accurate rating and to prevent from overrating when a person has one good year (i.e. we rated Arian Foster an 82) or keeping a player's rating high when they no longer deserve it.

we try to stay away from silly subjective stuff and base 90% of our ratings on data. stuff like "so and so said..." is foolishness. want to see who REALLY has the best hands in the league? use the premium stats on PFF, they track drops and all of the other stuff that is really important. numbers can lie, but not if you look INTO them instead of AT them...

we're also not fans of what people's "alleged" athletic prowess is or stupid Sportscenter highlights. everyone has good plays, but production is king...raising someone's stats for one good game/play makes no sense unless you lower them for a bad one as well. we've always believed that you look at stats for a whole year, but we break the year down into quarters for roster update purposes to show players improving/declining during a season. lastly we dont rate anyone higher than a 96 and an 85 rating is coveted and only applies if a person has 3 years of consistently high numbers.

lastly we base the last 10% on opinions and other intangibles like team success (all numbers are not created equal, 1300 yards rushing on a 2-14 team doesn't equal 1100 yards on a contender that goes deep into the playoffs .vs. better competition and when the yards really count) we also look at offensive and defensive rankings to try to determine if a player is making his team better or not.

Witten's Numbers are beastly to say the least here are the last three seasons. there's not a question whether he's elite or not, how elite is the real question. he and gates are clearly the best two TEs in the league. more than 70 catches and 1,000 yards are unheard of even today at the TE position, so exceeding that is saying something. 4+ TDs is pretty remarkable as well (WRs and TEs are different)

84-952-4
94-1030-2
94-1002-9

Here are Gates' numbers. they are good, there's no question about it, but they aren't at the level of what Witten has achieved. Both play with a good set of receivers, so that is no excuse for either. And while Gates is the #1 target for his QB Witten plays with Miles Austin (a 1,000 yd WR) Dez Bryant and Roy Williams. Both TEs play with good QBs so there's no advantage by either there. Where Gates stands out is as a truly elite target in the redzone even though he missed 6 games last year. he had an average of 9 TDs over the last 3 year period. Here are his numbers:

60-704-8
79-1157-9
50-782-10

In the end, the production is good for both (both teams went to the playoffs twice in the last three years) but Witten was outstanding and gets the nod if you look INTO the numbers. I'd rate Witten a 96 and Gates a 92.

**Palo20** · 07-21-2011, 07:33 PM

If I'm starting a team I'll take Gates and his unmatched playmaking ability. I'll sacrifice some blocking.

**mojo6911** · 07-21-2011, 07:37 PM

Re: Gates vs Witten

They are two different types of players. No way Gates is a 99, but he is better than Witten.

**rich7sena** · 07-21-2011, 07:40 PM

Re: Gates vs Witten

I'll always take the player who scores more touchdowns (by a large margin). I don't buy that Witten has better hands because Vernon Davis said so; Gates will go down as one of the best pass catching tight ends in NFL history. The only thing that Gates gives up to Witten is blocking.

**FlyEaglesFly3** · 07-21-2011, 07:53 PM

Re: Gates vs Witten

We already had this debate in the top 10 players discussion!

Gates is better, only Cowboys fans support your statements lol.

STOP TRYING TO GET YOUR 6-10 COWBOYS EVEN MORE OVER-RATED!

**bkrich83** · 07-21-2011, 07:59 PM

Re: Gates vs Witten

Originally posted by SIMstyle

ur pretty passionate about this one huh? me and a friend rate players as a hobby since Madden's ratings are so bad and here's my .02...we usually look at the last 3 years to determine an accurate rating and to prevent from overrating when a person has one good year (i.e. we rated Arian Foster an 82) or keeping a player's rating high when they no longer deserve it.

we try to stay away from silly subjective stuff and base 90% of our ratings on data. stuff like "so and so said..." is foolishness. want to see who REALLY has the best hands in the league? use the premium stats on PFF, they track drops and all of the other stuff that is really important. numerbs can lie, but not if you look INTO them instead of AT them...

we're also not fans of what people's "alleged" athletic prowess is or stupid Sportscenter highlights. everyone has good plays, but production is king...raising someone's stats for one good game/play makes no sense unless you lower them for a bad one as well. we've always believed that you look at stats for a whole year, but we break the year down into quarters for roster update purposes to show players improving during a season. lastly we dont rate anyone higher than a 96 and an 85 is coveted and only applies if a person has 3 years of consistently high numbers.

lastly we base the last 10% on opinions and other intangibles like team success (all numbers are not created equal, 1300 yards rushing on a 2-14 team doesn't equal 1100 yards on a contender that goes deep into the playoffs .vs. better competition and when the yards really count) we also look at offensive and defensive rankings to try to determine if a player is making his team better or not.

Witten's Numbers are beastly to say the least here are the last three seasons. there's not a question whether he's elite or not, how elite is the real question. he and gates are clearly the best two TEs in the league. more than 70 catches and 1,000 yards are unheard of even today, so exceeding that is saying something. 4+ TDs is pretty remarkable as well (WRs and TEs are different)

84-952-4
94-1030-2
94-1002-9

Here are Gates' numbers. they are good, there's no question about it, but they aren't at the level of what Witten has achieved. Both play with a good set of receivers, so that is no excuse for either. And while Gates is the #1 target for his QB Witten plays with Miles Austin (a 1,000 yd WR) Dez Bryant and Roy Williams. Both TEs play with good QBs so there's no advantage by either there. Where Gates stands out is as a truly elite target in the redzone even though he missed 6 games last year. he had an average of 9 TDs over the last 3 year period. Here are his numbers:

60-704-8
79-1157-9
50-782-10

In the end, the production is good for both (both teams went to the playoffs twice in the last three years) but Witten was outstanding and gets the nod if you look INTO the numbers. I'd rate Witten a 96 and Gates a 92.

Not sure how you could use those raw numbers to determine anything. Stats don't equal talent/ability.

That being said, I don't care. Gates makes plays Witten is simply incapable of. There's not much more than need to be said.

**SIMstyle** · 07-21-2011, 08:26 PM

Re: Gates vs Witten

Originally posted by bkrich83

Not sure how you could use those raw numbers to determine anything. Stats don't equal talent/ability.

That being said, I don't care. Gates makes plays Witten is simply incapable of. There's not much more than need to be said.

that's just the thing bro...talent/ability is subjective. PRODUCTION IS NOT. i've got a friend who's a UM fan who told me that Devin Hester is the most talented player to play at that school. while some would disagree, (even though he's unmatched in the open field) no one would disagree that he's been an average NFL receiver (if that) make sense now? talent? ability? none of that can be tracked...and if talent = good then JJ Stokes would be in the Hall of Fame. unfortunately it doesn't and he's not.

its the same argument cowboys fans make in relation to Dez Bryant (45-561-6 on a 6-10 team) or Indy fans used to make about Bob Sanders (who played about 1 healthy season every 3 years) it makes no sense to rate players well who don't play or don't produce. PERIOD.

i'm not a cowboys fan but 80 catches, 1000 yards and 5 TDs a year is unmatched production at TE. if you can't admit that, you're not being honest with yourself. doubt it? look at Gonzo's (best TE ever) best years and get back to me. i'm not saying he's better than Gates, i'm saying that if you're rating them you rate Witten higher.

**R0M0mentum09** · 07-21-2011, 08:27 PM

Re: Gates vs Witten

Originally posted by FlyEaglesFly3

We already had this debate in the top 10 players discussion!

Gates is better, only Cowboys fans support your statements lol.

STOP TRYING TO GET YOUR 6-10 COWBOYS EVEN MORE OVER-RATED!

Says the Eagles fan.

You guys are all missing the point of this. It's not that Gates or Witten is better at this or that... it's that Gates or Witten is the better overall TE.

Witten may not be a better receiving TE than Gates no way but he's at at least comparable right? Many have already said that Witten is the better blocker thus making Witten the better "OVERALL" TE

**bkrich83** · 07-21-2011, 08:31 PM

Re: Gates vs Witten

Originally posted by SIMstyle

that's just the thing bro...talent/ability is subjective. PRODUCTION IS NOT. i've got a friend who's a UM fan who told me that Devin Hester is the most talented player to play at that school. while some would disagree, (even though he's unmatched in the open field) no one would disagree that he's been an average NFL receiver (if that) make sense now? talent? ability? none of that can be tracked...and if talent = good then JJ Stokes would be in the Hall of Fame. unfortunately it doesn't and he's not.

its the same argument cowboys fans make in relation to Dez Bryant (45-561-6 on a 6-10 team) or Indy fans used to make about Bob Sanders (who played about 1 healthy season every 3 years) it makes no sense to rate players well who don't play or don't produce. PERIOD.

i'm not a cowboys fan but 80 catches, 1000 yards and 5 TDs a year is unmatched production at TE. if you can't admit that, you're not being honest with yourself. doubt it? look at Gonzo's (best TE ever) best years and get back to me. i'm not saying he's better than Gates, i'm saying that if you're rating them you rate Witten higher.

I got you, you're taking stats as the be all end all for production and turning them in to ratings.

I don't agree with that logic, but to each their own.

**bkrich83** · 07-21-2011, 08:36 PM

Re: Gates vs Witten

Originally posted by R0M0mentum09

Says the Eagles fan.

You guys are all missing the point of this. It's not that Gates or Witten is better at this or that... it's that Gates or Witten is the better overall TE.

Witten may not be a better receiving TE than Gates no way but he's at at least comparable right? Many have already said that Witten is the better blocker thus making Witten the better "OVERALL" TE

It all depends on what you want in a TE.

That being said, you lost some credibiilty by saying Witten was a better route runner and had better hands. I have never heard a single football person say anything like that.

Witten is the better blocker, particularly at the point of attack. Gates has gotten better, but simply is not an impact blocker. Going on what I have seen and I know of the Chargers offense, Gates is merely an average blocker. Witten, by all accounts is an outstanding blocker. Of course unless you really know their roles and then break them down on the all 11 tapes it's difficult to truly rate someone as a blocker.

As a receiver Gates is significantly better. He creates matchup problems that Witten doesn't, he's as good after the catch as any TE I have ever seen including the elder Winslow..

Gates however has been hampered by this on again off again foot injury, Witten has certainly proved to be more durable.

If I am running the Chargers offense, it's a no brainer, Gates is head and shoulders better for this offense. If I want a guy who's a very good receiver, and a great point of attack blocker, I take Witten and just live without the extras Gates gives you in the pass game.

**shnuskis** · 07-21-2011, 08:44 PM

Re: Gates vs Witten

Those stats don't tell the whole story. Those are gross numbers and nothing is mentioned that Witten played 6 more games than Gates to get those numbers from last year. Gates had 10 TD's and 700 yds in 10 games. That is better production than Wittens 1000 yds 9 td's in 16 games.

You are also not taking into concideration Gates' yds/catch.

Gates:11.7, 14.6, 15.6.
Witten: 11.8, 11.0, 10.7

**rich7sena** · 07-21-2011, 08:45 PM

Re: Gates vs Witten

Originally posted by R0M0mentum09

Says the Eagles fan.

You guys are all missing the point of this. It's not that Gates or Witten is better at this or that... it's that Gates or Witten is the better overall TE.

Witten may not be a better receiving TE than Gates no way but he's at at least comparable right? Many have already said that Witten is the better blocker thus making Witten the better "OVERALL" TE

I don't think it's really that comparable or debatable. You brought up Antonio Gate's comments about Witten, well Gates finished 22nd among a player voted NFL top 100 list while Witten finished 36. While the Cowboys are struggling to score in the red zone, Gates is setting records for touchdowns for a tight end. Knock Gate's blocking all you want but Tony Gonzalez never was a great blocker either but both are going to be widely considered better tight ends than Jason Witten when it's all said and done. The tight end position has evolved into much more than a utility player. Given the opportunity, teams would always rather have the more explosive and a point scorer than a guy whose good at a lot a things but not really all time great at anything.

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