3-4, and 4-3 Prototypes?

[cgalligan]

Hey guys.

Just wondering if anyone has a link or somewhere they could direct me to find this info.

I'm currently in two online franchise for the upcoming Madden 12... I have a 3-4 team in one, and a 4-3 team in the other... So, I was wondering if anyone could direct me to a site or source that has the basic "prototypes" for each position I need...

I know the basics, 4-3 DE, should be Pass rushers, while the DT takes up 2 OLineman to free up the MLB... 3-4, all three DLineman are run stoppers, and the pass rush comes from the OLB's...

I want to did deeper though, so, I just have a Couple questions:

- What type of DE should I have on the LE vs the RE?
- What type of CB should I have in 3-4 vs 4-3?
- What speed rating would you look for in a 4-3 DE? Nothing below 80?
- What about the size of the DE or DT? Can you have a 6'2' 250, 3-4 DE??? Or, does he have to be a 300lb monster...

And lastly, the most important question, does Madden even factor into the equation whether or not a player fits a specific scheme? Meaning, can I just throw any 90 ovr DE in there in a 3-4 scheme? ie- Dwight Freeney? Or, will I notice a difference in a 3-4 if I don't have a real 3-4 DE in there???

Thanks for any tips... Its much appreciated.

[MagicMan1315]

Re: 3-4, and 4-3 Prototypes?

And lastly, the most important question, does Madden even factor into the equation whether or not a player fits a specific scheme? Meaning, can I just throw any 90 ovr DE in there in a 3-4 scheme? ie- Dwight Freeney? Or, will I notice a difference in a 3-4 if I don't have a real 3-4 DE in there???

I don't think it really matters. It hasn't in past years in NCAA or Madden. Granted I didn't buy Madden 11. Even though.. I have found a Dwight Freeney/Mario Williams is a force to be feared as a 3-4 DE.

[phillysouljah]

Re: 3-4, and 4-3 Prototypes?

As for the undersized DE question, Elvis Dumervil is 5'11" 248lbs, played DE in a 4-3 but was moved to OLB when the Broncos switched to a 3-4. Maybe a Broncos fan could confirm but I believe the Broncos are going back to a 4-3 and Dumervil is going back to the defensive line.

Meanwhile, the Texans are switching back to a 3-4 and long-time 4-3 DE, Mario Williams, will be converted to an OLB. Interesting because Williams is huge (6'6" 295lbs), a size not unlike the prototypical 3-4 DE (Richard Seymour is 6'6" 310lbs, in comparison) and much bigger than the top 3-4 OLB (DeMarcus Ware is 6'4" 262lbs). Go figure. But, of course, mere size is not everything so maybe the Texans coaching staff think Williams' skillset makes him a better 3-4 LB than 3-4 DE.

[cgalligan]

Re: 3-4, and 4-3 Prototypes?

Thanks guys

I did a google search, and, what do you know... I found this...

Bill Gave the prototypical charts for players.
Defense Height Weight Speed Hand Arm
Defensive End 6 4.3 279 4.82 9.7 33
34 DE 6 4.2 291 4.93 10 32.7
Crash/Rush End 6 3.5 266 4.7 9.6 33.1
DT 6 3 302 4.98 9.7 33
34 OLB 6 3.3 256 4.65 9.6 33.1
34 ILB 6 1.5 240 4.71 9.5 32.1
34 NT 6 2.2 316 5.07 10 32.5
Linebacker 6 1. 2 239 4.69 9.4 31.6
Sam LB 6 2.3 243 4.65 9.5 32.4
CB 5 11.2 193 4.47 9 31.1
SS 6 0.2 207 4.51 9.2 31.4
FS 6 0.1 204 4.52 9.2 31.4

Sorry for the format, I wasn't sure if I was allowed to post the link...

[cgalligan]

Re: 3-4, and 4-3 Prototypes?

I've read the term "Rush End" a few places. Again I'm asking this as it pertains to Madden football. Does it matter which DE is your main pass rusher? LE or RE?

Thanks again.

[dbgameover]

Re: 3-4, and 4-3 Prototypes?

it dose not matter which side you have a rush end in madden. in real life they like rush ends on the right side because a right handed quarterback wouldn't be able to see him coming. which is also why they put the best line men on the left side the blind side of a quarterback (that is right handed.)i hope that's not confusing.

but to answer your question it is better to put your rush end on the left side (le) because they would be facing the weaker tackle on the offensive line.

[PGaither84]

Re: 3-4, and 4-3 Prototypes?

The short answer is that in Madden, it doesn't really Matter. Maybe it will in Madden 12 but I highly doubt it.

In Madden terms, what you are looking for is Block shedding to try and stuff the run. For pass rushing, you are looking for Finesse Moves. At least in my experience, Power Move animations rarely play out.

I honestly think this is intentional by EA. I think that if the game worked like they claim it does [that the defender will choose power or finesse moves based on which rating is higher], then 3-4 DEs would get a lot more pressure that people would be happy with. After all, 3-4 DEs in Madden 11 often have three high ratings: Block Shedding, Power Moves and Tackle. On the other hand, 4-3 DEs in Madden tend to have high speed and finesse moves with low tackle and block shedding ratings.

Now, talking about Corner backs: Obviously I am oversimplifying it, but when you run the 3-4, you are likely going to use a lot of zone blitz schemes. That means you will likely want CBs with a high Zone Coverage rating. However, when you play the 4-3, you will likely run more man and man press. In this case you will likely want corners with a higher press and man coverage rating. A great example of this is what the Eagles are doing right now. Asante Is a Zone Coverage expert from his days in New England [who ran the 3-4.] Now they have gone out and acquired DRC and Nnamdi who are known to be great physical bump & run/man coverage corners who are also a better fit for their Defense. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they try and trade Asante for value... or if they keep him for one "super" season and then trade him.

So, while Madden 12 may be different, I doubt it. This is honestly some of the best advice I could give you based on my own experience playing Madden over the years.

[Broncos86]

Re: 3-4, and 4-3 Prototypes?

It really all comes down to the fact that weight doesn't matter. In a 3-4, you need a strong, big nose tackle that demands double teaming. In Madden, a double team isn't really a naturally occurring event; they're often scripted into the play. That is to say, an O-Line isn't going to double team a nose tackle unless the play called specifically has a double team block scripted. You can put linebacker at NT, and you're not really going to see a big difference.

As for the undersized DE question, Elvis Dumervil is 5'11" 248lbs, played DE in a 4-3 but was moved to OLB when the Broncos switched to a 3-4. Maybe a Broncos fan could confirm but I believe the Broncos are going back to a 4-3 and Dumervil is going back to the defensive line.

Correct. Both Dumervil and Robert Ayers have moved from outside linebacker to DE.

[adembroski]

Re: 3-4, and 4-3 Prototypes?

It really all comes down to the fact that weight doesn't matter. In a 3-4, you need a strong, big nose tackle that demands double teaming. In Madden, a double team isn't really a naturally occurring event; they're often scripted into the play. That is to say, an O-Line isn't going to double team a nose tackle unless the play called specifically has a double team block scripted. You can put linebacker at NT, and you're not really going to see a big difference.

.

Umm... tha'ts how it works. If ther'es a guy on the defense that "commands" a double team, the opposing team calls plays that double team him. They don't change the blocking assignments, that's asking for missed assignments.

[PGaither84]

Re: 3-4, and 4-3 Prototypes?

Umm... tha'ts how it works. If ther'es a guy on the defense that "commands" a double team, the opposing team calls plays that double team him. They don't change the blocking assignments, that's asking for missed assignments.

You're right... but in Madden nobody "commands a double team" like they do in real life, and you know that. You know that NTs try to play like Warren Sapp instead of Vince Wilfork, and that DEs try to play like Dwight Freeney instead of Richard Seymore or Haloti Ngata.

Eric Mangini said the Jets drafted Nick Mangold because they felt he could deal with Vince Wilfork and players like him. That's what makes Nick special and one of the best centers in football.

Finally, that's why it is very interesting that NE picked up Fat Albert. The Pats received good value for Richard Seymore, but they have yet to find a replacement for him. Fat Albert has the talent to be that guy. Too bad for NE that the Jets also have D'Brickashaw at LT.

[jfsolo]

Re: 3-4, and 4-3 Prototypes?

Umm... tha'ts how it works. If ther'es a guy on the defense that "commands" a double team, the opposing team calls plays that double team him. They don't change the blocking assignments, that's asking for missed assignments.

In Madden 12 is the blocking A.I. really going to be able to determine who is deserving of that double team block. I ask, because in NCAA this year I was playing a game against Akron, and they had a SS starting at DT(That's an argument for another day and forum) and this guy really should never have been double teamed because, of course, he was getting manhandled by single blocking, but there he was on many plays getting doubled by the C and G.

[dbgameover]

Re: 3-4, and 4-3 Prototypes?

In Madden 12 is the blocking A.I. really going to be able to determine who is deserving of that double team block. I ask, because in NCAA this year I was playing a game against Akron, and they had a SS starting at DT(That's an argument for another day and forum) and this guy really should never have been double teamed because, of course, he was getting manhandled by single blocking, but there he was on many plays getting doubled by the C and G.

Some plays in football require a "scrape" double team no matter the player because typically a center isn't quick enough to get out to the play side of a dline man so you chip him with a guard and then the center can handle him. this is in man blocking of course in zone blocking they'd just push that safety to the Gatorade lol

[Palo20]

In Madden 12 is the blocking A.I. really going to be able to determine who is deserving of that double team block. I ask, because in NCAA this year I was playing a game against Akron, and they had a SS starting at DT(That's an argument for another day and forum) and this guy really should never have been double teamed because, of course, he was getting manhandled by single blocking, but there he was on many plays getting doubled by the C and G.

The point is that the play call that determines the double team not the personnel.

Players who "command a double" are schemed for by the play call not by the coach just saying, "hey make sure you double Wilfork" even if the double team isn't in the blocking scheme.

So to make this realistic, let's say you're facing the Pats and you want to double Wilfork. Study your running plays, find out which plays double the NT. Call those plays. If you call plays that don't double the nose, they won't double him.

Now one issue I do have in Madden is that all DLinemen play the same. Wilfork and the other big nose tackles will often use swim moves and knife into the backfield instead of holding their gaps. They all play like Sapp.

[gccosph]

Re: 3-4, and 4-3 Prototypes?

The point is that the play call that determines the double team not the personnel.

Players who "command a double" are schemed for by the play call not by the coach just saying, "hey make sure you double Wilfork" even if the double team isn't in the blocking scheme.

So to make this realistic, let's say you're facing the Pats and you want to double Wilfork. Study your running plays, find out which plays double the NT. Call those plays. If you call plays that don't double the nose, they won't double him.

This is why I come to this site! Good advice

And to be on topic, I don't know much about it. All I can say is that... I don't think the 3-4 in madden 11 worked as good as it could have. D Ware played better in my 4-6 then my 3-4 but honestly maybe I was doing something wrong. These little tips help me out a lot. I'm sorry I cant add anything more.

[Broncos86]

Re: 3-4, and 4-3 Prototypes?

Umm... tha'ts how it works. If ther'es a guy on the defense that "commands" a double team, the opposing team calls plays that double team him. They don't change the blocking assignments, that's asking for missed assignments.

Fair point, but no double-team is possible unless it's inherently scripted. I.E. if my NT is mauling your center on a passing play, no other lineman can help until the center and NT disengage.

I understand what you're saying, but that's not really the point. The double team is not an organic element, or even a required element. No NT is going to drive the center backwards. The entire point of a NT is to take on multiple blockers. That's just not the case in Madden. The best one can come to replicating this is getting a NT who can get off blocks quickly in order to force a guard into picking him up. With this, it simulates a double team.

Now, I did notice, in NCAA 12, guards that would shadow the center in an effort to help, so that's a nice start.