Staff Roundtable: Madden NFL 12 Demo Impressions

[CRMosier_LM]

Re: Staff Roundtable: Madden NFL 12 Demo Impressions

Wow. Because you disagree with EA redoing game engines at this time, the other person ISN'T THINKING LOGICALLY?

Really, only some real time mission critical code and real time mission critical graphics may need to be tailored to a specific piece of hardware. Everything else should be written in a higher level language. They could do a new game engine before another console comes out, and only have to recode pieces. And there is absolutely NO reason why all the features and modes should be stripped out like they were previously. All that Franchise, etc, should be written in a higher level language and portable, with some recoding. Unless of course, they want to just slowly reimplement old features for marketing and sales reasons.

They won't know exactly what coding is compatible until they get the design packets for the new systems. It is not NEARLY as easy as you are implying.

[bucky60]

Re: Staff Roundtable: Madden NFL 12 Demo Impressions

They won't know exactly what coding is compatible until they get the design packets for the new systems. It is not NEARLY as easy as you are implying.

Not true. If things are written in a higher level language then all they need is a compiler/linker. All the mission critical assembly is what they would need to redo. That's what compilers and linkers are for - making code portable.

[CRMosier_LM]

Re: Staff Roundtable: Madden NFL 12 Demo Impressions

Not true. If things are written in a higher level language then all they need is a compiler/linker. All the mission critical assembly is what they would need to redo. That's what compilers and linkers are for - making code portable.

Portable and completely compatible are two separate things when discussing yet to be released hardware.

[bucky60]

Re: Staff Roundtable: Madden NFL 12 Demo Impressions

Portable and completely compatible are two separate things when discussing yet to be released hardware.

Someone mentioned that EA COULD be working on a new set of engines for this Gen of Hardware. This is what somebody responded.

Why would they build a new engine when the Xbox 360 and PS3 are nearing the end of their cycles? In 2-3 years we'll have new systems, it makes much more sense financially and logically to build a engine optimized for the new system technology, rather than building an engine now, then having to tweak and alter it for the new systems.

Actually think logically about what you're saying before typing.

Now, that original guy wasn't so far off base mentioning that EA could do it. But this guy basically calls him stupid by saying he should think before typing. I'm telling Mr. Smooov that if EA writes there code in such a way, in a higher level language, that much of it can be ported (and compatible) using a compiler and linker. I'm not trying to debate how EA actually wrote their code, just that it isn't such a dumb/outrageous statement that the original poster made. I don't know how EA wrote the code. I don't know the cost benefit for EA doing new engines on this console. My point is that given what we do know, the first poster wasn't so off base.

And yes, portable is compatible. That's what compilers and linkers do, make code portable and compatible. They hide the machine level details from the higher level programming language. You really want to debate this?

[CRMosier_LM]

Re: Staff Roundtable: Madden NFL 12 Demo Impressions

Someone mentioned that EA COULD be working on a new set of engines for this Gen of Hardware. This is what somebody responded.



Now, that original guy wasn't so far off base mentioning that EA could do it. But this guy basically calls him stupid by saying he should think before typing. I'm telling Mr. Smooov that if EA writes there code in such a way, in a higher level language, that much of it can be ported (and compatible) using a compiler and linker. I'm not trying to debate how EA actually wrote their code, just that it isn't such a dumb/outrageous statement that the original poster made. I don't know how EA wrote the code. I don't know the cost benefit for EA doing new engines on this console. My point is that given what we do know, the first poster wasn't so off base.

And yes, portable is compatible. That's what compilers and linkers do, make code portable and compatible. They hide the machine level details from the higher level programming language. You really want to debate this?

No I really have no desire to debate anything on here. But basically what I am alluding to is that not any single one of us knows how they do their coding, and also anyone who says they are already working on next gen coding or a new engine for this gen is making an assumption based on absolutely nothing but conjecture. Maybe they are and maybe they aren't but it really has nothing to do with this demo or the thread. It seems to always come up that the coding is wrong when NO ONE here knows that. It is people grasping for straws to explain an perceived abnormality in the game. Instead of focusing on how the "coding is wrong" or "next gen coding" we should instead focus our energies and thoughts on Madden NFL 12 and what needs worked on based off of the demo while keeping in mind that it is just a demo and most of the issues brought up have been verified as corrected already.

[Tomba]

Re: Staff Roundtable: Madden NFL 12 Demo Impressions

What I like is the fact you can kick long field goals and not be guaranteed to make them every time.

Maybe that will change after getting used to the new kicking meter but so far it's been really good.

exactly. Plus the view is great. I actually look forward to kicking it through the uprights now for the first time EVER . I do have to admit that that rugby demo has a pretty cool kicking cam as well

[Tomba]

Re: Staff Roundtable: Madden NFL 12 Demo Impressions

I can only speak for myself, but I don't consider tweaking sliders as cheating per se. I do, however, feel that I'm sometime cheating the game to make up for poor AI. That is, creating an even larger amount of unrealistic situations to get better gameplay and\or stats.

If I have to make the defenders get off their blocks unrealistically fast when playing run defense, just so I can get some decent gameplay and better stats, I feel like I'm cheating.

But I guess it all depends on your point of view. For some, it's enough to have accurate stats, regardless of how unrealistic you get it, to get a feeling of realism in the game, while I don't care about accurate stats unless they are the product of realistic gameplay.

I still remember how Tiburon last year refused to acknowledge that the kick returning was unrealistic and broken with the argument that "people got accurate stats".

For those of us who do slider work it depends on the mentality. I myself have always wanted the smoothest gameplay experience possible and if that meant putting it on the easiest difficulty and then tweaking the sliders up in order for animations to play out right I'd do it.

And i'd do it in away that would not sacrifice the realism of the sport.

But yeah if you put up the passing meter so that it's easier to score than yeah THATS cheating lol.

[bucky60]

Re: Staff Roundtable: Madden NFL 12 Demo Impressions

But basically what I am alluding to is that not any single one of us knows how they do their coding, and also anyone who says they are already working on next gen coding or a new engine for this gen is making an assumption based on absolutely nothing but conjecture.

And what does anything you said in that entire post have to do with somebody saying this:

Why would they build a new engine when the Xbox 360 and PS3 are nearing the end of their cycles? In 2-3 years we'll have new systems, it makes much more sense financially and logically to build a engine optimized for the new system technology, rather than building an engine now, then having to tweak and alter it for the new systems.

Actually think logically about what you're saying before typing.

When the guy mentions a real time physics engine? And I mention that it's not such an outrageous thing to ask about and that it is at lest technically possible depending on how the code is written by using a higher level language and a compiler/linker?

Explain it. Cause I see nothing at all in your post that relates to this. Do you believe that other guy should "think before he posts"? When he brings up "real time physics"? I've already explained why it's not such an outrageous thing to bring up. Or do you think it's OK for that guy who responded with "Actually think logically about what you're saying before typing." is right in basically saying "don't be stupid, it's not possible"?

Please explain how anything in your post has anything to do with this. Because I do agree with you about only EA knows how they wrote there code. But what does that have to do with "is it possible"? and "was that first guy stupid"?

[Playmakers]

Re: Staff Roundtable: Madden NFL 12 Demo Impressions

For those of us who do slider work it depends on the mentality. I myself have always wanted the smoothest gameplay experience possible and if that meant putting it on the easiest difficulty and then tweaking the sliders up in order for animations to play out right I'd do it.

And i'd do it in away that would not sacrifice the realism of the sport.

But yeah if you put up the passing meter so that it's easier to score than yeah THATS cheating lol.

After playing the demo I think this game is very user friendly with sliders....you can tell right away the change in gameplay once you tweak a specific slider

For example the pass reaction slider there's no doubt in my mind it works unlike NCAA 12 where everything seems to be broken or backwards with sliders LOL!

It's gonna be a fun year for me personally with Madden 12

[TombSong]

Re: Staff Roundtable: Madden NFL 12 Demo Impressions

Lets be real here and not talk around the issue because its here and is nevr going away.

There are those who are content with status quo from EA. There are those who don't know no better because they think what EA has offered to date is all that there is and can possibly be done. This group typically are the ones who make excuses for the games current state and expects everyone else to just fall in line like they have and just be content with less as they have. To that group I say, nothing wrong with that. If you are happy with what you got in your hands this year, I am glad you have peace and I aint mad at yah.

There is another group that has seen better times, that have not forgotten what they had in other games. That groups standards are a bit higher than the others. So each year this group seeks a improvement on what they once had. Is there anything wrong with that ? Why can't this be discussed in a civil manner instead of treating a forum full of grown men like 12 year olds ?(discounting the guys who are actually 12 years old)

4 years ago a group of us could expect to see certain features and game play. That has been taken away from us by a "license deal".


No matter what group you fall into and to the OS reviewers when you pick up this years Madden ask yourself can I:


1. Can I come out lined up in one formation then shift into the playcall formation for added strategy ?

2. Can I send more than one man in motion from any legal motion position(even after the formation shift) ?

3. Can I adjust my offensive line to double team the left DT or the right DT ?

4. Can I disguise my defensive coverage 1/2/3 deep with coverage shells ?

5. Can I easily make hot adjustments to my LBs and DBs without having to cycle through them all thus less micro management pre-snap ?

6. Can I get a play diagram to look at when calling audibles, not just a play name ?

7. Can I adjust those audibles on the fly while calling my play at the play call screen...no need to pause the game...no limit to the amount of audibles you can call ?

8. Can I call my Dline stunts separate from my play call and included in those stunts are twists left/middle/right side of the line...and hey work during run plays ? (Madden 12 your adjustments only work on pass plays, on run plays they get sucked into whatever the offensive line is doing...and you cant call twist stunts at all)

9. Can player abilities make each player have a distinct playability giving them a personality that is lacking in madden. Can the cpu run each team differently as though it has a game plan thus you dont feel like you are playing the same team and same coach over and over ?

10. Can I record how your friends play and make the cpu call plays like you friend would ?

11. Can there be 4 depth adjustments you can make(only 1 in madden) for the DBs plus you can shade inside or outside and do it much easier then the current madden 12 setup ?

12. Can there be Mulitple hit gang tackling where you the user can come in and actually influence the direction the tackle is going..plus you can reach out and grab ball carriers if engaged in a block ?

13. Can there be a multple choice penalty challenge system that works ?


PLUS:
Commentary that sounds like the commentators are in the same booth watching the same game, better animations, bigger player models, smarter AI, no warping, no psychic DBs, no super leaping LBs , no mario running, player specific jukes and running styles....(2k5 has a half time show that has not been matched to date) great presentation(Madden has just caught up)

This was ALL possible 4 years ago. Is it unreasonable to expect those things to be in a game thats newer ? A standard was set that most game review sites ignore when they discuss Madden. Madden is not held to that standard. Madden is only compared to other Madden games. Do you who so staunchly defend it think thats right ?

To those who get upset by the comparisons, how can you get angry at reality ? Reviewers, what in the game of Madden 12 is ground breaking ? What is the games strong points ?

What I see:

1. A marginal graphic improvement...If someone had Madden 11 playing on my TV and said it was Madden 12, I could not tell by looking that they were telling a lie. Not speaking cutscenes or overlays here. Talking about what I see the most when playing this game, the players and the field.

2. Zig Zag player movement is slightly worse in this version than last years(probably because the game speed is faster)

3. Still have players that are unaware of the sidelines, I mean run their routes right out of bounds.

4. If you notice, if a WR is in a catch animation where he turns to face the ball and is standing still, his jump ball animation seems to make the defender AI go on full ******, they either wont try to defend the pass, or go into a WR catch animation, while the WR is jumping to catch the ball. If you try and manually defend you either can't move, or are put in a swat while on the ground animation or WR catch animation, WTF ?

5. Warping is STILL a big issue.

6. Suction blocking is STILL a issue. I actually got blocked by a offensive lineman that was in a get up off the ground animation.

7. You cant make football reads in a lot of cases when passing, you have to make "madden" reads because you can't believe what you are seeing. The defenders body language and momentum/direction they are running mean nothing. The instant you hit that pass button the whole Madden reality changes. The defenders make moves and changes directions in ways that would make a UFO jealous.

There are those of us who play this game in spite of itself. We play it because our friends play it. Thats what makes it fun...playing with our friends, not the game itself. You will have those that will scream at me and say, well make slider adjustments, or , oh you just dont know how to play the game, and thoseare the SAME people who won't play a soul online...WHY ? Is it because the game they love allows a lot of BS and is broken ? Yet they expect me to absolutely LOVE it ?

I am tired of typing...........This Demo is a 7.

[IntellectualAssassin]

Re: Staff Roundtable: Madden NFL 12 Demo Impressions

^ GREAT post

[bkrich83]

Re: Staff Roundtable: Madden NFL 12 Demo Impressions

my dude,
what everyone wants is a better football game and madden simply isnt getting it done..... 2k is far from trash..... u may personally not like it but that doesnt make it a piece of crap. Madden has added alot of features that have been in previous games on previous generations but they are dancing around the real challenge of a RTPE (real-time-physics-engine). Its an increadibly hard thing to build while presentation and camera angles are piece of cake. ALot of people beileve if 2k was around, they would have accomplished this before backbreaker, madden would have probibly as well if they were pushed at all. madden needs to acknolage the elephant in the room or they are toast, 2k is already trying to free up capital for the licence and they can easy dip into 2k11 basketballs 300$ million dollars they made last year.....

Where are you getting this info from?

[roadman]

Re: Staff Roundtable: Madden NFL 12 Demo Impressions

So each year this group seeks a improvement on what they once had. Is there anything wrong with that ?

I'm assuming you haven't seen improvement up to this stage.

I agreed with most of your post, but to say there is no improvement towards the past competitor games is not really realistic.

The camera areas itself make it like a TV broadcast presentation, which you admitted when you said EA has caught up.

The tackling is improved immensely and more towards the other games. No more huggy feely protak type tackles.

Does it have a ways to go? You bet it does, but this is the first time since Madden 10 I'm happy the direction in which the series is going.

Like you said, there are two different types of groups. Neither group is wrong and both groups want an NFL type football game.

In my opinion, the 2 groups aren't that far apart.

[CRMosier_LM]

Re: Staff Roundtable: Madden NFL 12 Demo Impressions

And what does anything you said in that entire post have to do with somebody saying this:



When the guy mentions a real time physics engine? And I mention that it's not such an outrageous thing to ask about and that it is at lest technically possible depending on how the code is written by using a higher level language and a compiler/linker?

Explain it. Cause I see nothing at all in your post that relates to this. Do you believe that other guy should "think before he posts"? When he brings up "real time physics"? I've already explained why it's not such an outrageous thing to bring up. Or do you think it's OK for that guy who responded with "Actually think logically about what you're saying before typing." is right in basically saying "don't be stupid, it's not possible"?

Please explain how anything in your post has anything to do with this. Because I do agree with you about only EA knows how they wrote there code. But what does that have to do with "is it possible"? and "was that first guy stupid"?

Once again, judging by the title of this thread, none of this talk belongs here what so ever.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Staff Roundtable: Madden NFL 12 Demo Impressions

Why exactly are we supposed to assume 2k would have come up with a real-time physics engine before Backbreaker, when, correct me if I'm wrong, NBA 2k11 didn't even have "real-time" physics, and that was their best game?