The EA football perception??

[TheGedon]

If you don't agree cool....
"Objectively" talking here no BIAS

Madden 12 have improved not opinion just facts. I mean the game does feel different and play different. There is a dynamic to the cpu play this year that many will enjoy and get highly aggravated by. The animation quality have gotten better (still needs to evolve the running animation its still god awful lol) But the game has progressed.

Still MANY educated and objective gamers are still like "Madden SUCKS, Its God awful, its not SIM, anybody can play it, its a game for noobs" stuff like that. I feel as though EA can't do anything to fix this.... OR CAN THEY.

Well the only thing I can think of is if EA wants to win the gamers and sim gamers over then EA needs to do something to wow them. EA can add some NEW tech into Madden 13... Think about it Madden 12 although very much improved, the gameplay is still outdated... Thats just facts! Yes you have new shaders and lighting effect but what does that get you in the gameplay department??? NOTHING...

YES there is a new AI system. The problem is really its not NEW it's just evolved. It's the same style AI that has been in Madden for YEARS... The style of AI speak of is a governing AI. You have ONE AI governing body that controls everything (this is why the game seems to feel and look scripted at times...) And then you have their MoCap animations.... I'm not really gonna get into it but there is still something left to be desired in the game's animations, even though they've been improved...

What EA should do is use a NEW physics engine. I don't care what it is but it must calculate ALL collisions at ALL times why because its FOOTBALL. ALSO IT MUST CALCULATE OR FACTOR IN THE WEIGHT OF PLAYERS AND COMBINED WEIGHT why??? BECAUSE its FOOTBALL!!!! A better or new animation system that can produce highly detailed animations. Something about the animation system and the animations seem not to be on par with MLB the show, NBA 2k11, or EVEN FIFA 12. Hell the cut scene animations are better than the
in-game animations.

THE Governing AI needs to be DELETED SCRAPPED FORGOTTEN ABOUT LOL. All players should have there own AI. It can be done! If a game like BackBreaker can do it.. So can Madden!

Probably the most important thing is for EA is just to focus on FOOTBALL forget about all the flash and focus on the GRIT! Football is such strategic sport, yet not a lot of strategy is in Madden... So many of FOOTBALL's beautiful fundamentals are just left out ON PURPOSE...

If EA had choose to do this 3 or 4 years ago then no one would talk bad about madden or maybe they would but NOT have VALID reasons to back up their points.

All these factors mean something. You have half of the gaming population that don't like madden or even respect it... Then you have the fans that buy the game year to year despite the FACTS that I pointed out and if EA would focus on their craft Madden would SALE double!! Instead of 2.5 million copy's sold it would sale double or triple (maybe).

I mean it is the only NFL game on the market.. lol

[TNT713]

Re: The EA football perception??

EA can do whatever they want to the game - they can't do a thing about the people who play it. And that's the real issue... the people who play. On one side you have people who take responsibility for the decisions they make on the field, on the other you have people who blame EA for everything that happens.

The way I see it... I call the personnel, formation, assignments, pre-snap adjustments, and execute the play. If I do this well, I want the credit for being a good Madden player. If I don't do this well, I can blame EA even though they had little to do with my on-field decisions other than making them possible.

Then there are the guys that will do whatever the game allows regardless of whether it's 'football' or not as long as it works. On the flip side of that same coin you have players who think everything that works, can't be real football.

Furthermore, there are players who give basic football fundamentals really stupid names. Then there's the guys that think anything given a stupid name is no longer a viable football strategy.

Then you have guys that have watched football for years, and consider themselves experts on the game even though they have little exposure or knowledge about WHY the techniques and tactics they see as real football work in Madden.

Indeed... Madden would be a much better game if not for the people that play it.

Later

[TheGedon]

Re: The EA football perception??

EA can do whatever they want to the game - they can't do a thing about the people who play it. And that's the real issue... the people who play. On one side you have people who take responsibility for the decisions they make on the field, on the other you have people who blame EA for everything that happens.

The way I see it... I call the personnel, formation, assignments, pre-snap adjustments, and execute the play. If I do this well, I want the credit for being a good Madden player. If I don't do this well, I can blame EA even though they had little to do with my on-field decisions other than making them possible.

Then there are the guys that will do whatever the game allows regardless of whether it's 'football' or not as long as it works. On the flip side of that same coin you have players who think everything that works, can't be real football.

Furthermore, there are players who give basic football fundamentals really stupid names. Then there's the guys that think anything given a stupid name is no longer a viable football strategy.

Then you have guys that have watched football for years, and consider themselves experts on the game even though they have little exposure or knowledge about WHY the techniques and tactics they see as real football work in Madden.

Indeed... Madden would be a much better game if not for the people that play it.

Later

Good points!! But then I look at NBA 2k 12 its one game the only NBA game and they still improve it regardless of who buys it. Visual Concepts rather preserve the honor or essence of basketball no matter the competition or lack there of or whom ever buys the game! But You are super correct if causal gamers was more aware of what they buy then the sales would drop and force EA to create something way more compelling and tech savvy...

Great Post!

[roadman]

Re: The EA football perception??

You are preaching to the choir, TheGedon, or The Geddon, or Geddon.

[TheGedon]

Re: The EA football perception??

You are preaching to the choir, TheGedon, or The Geddon, or Geddon.

Who is that I don't know who they are......???
But thanks!

[Broncos86]

Re: The EA football perception??

If you don't agree cool....
"Objectively" talking here no BIAS

Still MANY educated and objective gamers are still like "Madden SUCKS, Its God awful, its not SIM, anybody can play it, its a game for noobs" stuff like that. I feel as though EA can't do anything to fix this.... OR CAN THEY.

The problem isn't whether Madden is for "noobs," because they need to appeal to the casual market, which is their major market. It's whether or not they can also appeal to the "sim" market. (The answer is yes, they can).

Well the only thing I can think of is if EA wants to win the gamers and sim gamers over then EA needs to do something to wow them. EA can add some NEW tech into Madden 13... Think about it Madden 12 although very much improved, the gameplay is still outdated... Thats just facts! Yes you have new shaders and lighting effect but what does that get you in the gameplay department??? NOTHING...

New tackling system, DPP, traits and roles. Better kicking meter too.

YES there is a new AI system.... (edited)

What EA should do is use a NEW physics engine.....(edited)

You're more likely to see an evolution of the current systems. The new tackling is evidence that the current system can be developed into a respectable platform.

Probably the most important thing is for EA is just to focus on FOOTBALL forget about all the flash and focus on the GRIT! Football is such strategic sport, yet not a lot of strategy is in Madden... So many of FOOTBALL's beautiful fundamentals are just left out ON PURPOSE...

One thing that MANY here at OS complain about is presentation. It's such a hot topic, year-in and year-out. EA is finally beginning to deliver on this front because the past few iterations have spent time fixing the utter broken mess that was Madden 09.

If EA had choose to do this 3 or 4 years ago then no one would talk bad about madden or maybe they would but NOT have VALID reasons to back up their points.

Madden 09 to Madden 10. They fixed so many things that were fundamentally wrong with the series.

All these factors mean something. You have half of the gaming population that don't like madden or even respect it... Then you have the fans that buy the game year to year despite the FACTS that I pointed out and if EA would focus on their craft Madden would SALE double!! Instead of 2.5 million copy's sold it would sale double or triple (maybe).

I mean it is the only NFL game on the market.. lol

You failed to consider the casual gamer who buys Madden year to year simply because they're not looking for the issues that are discovered here. They simply play the game, and the general ideas of football are represented to them enough that the game satisfies them. Also, I'm amused that your closing argument was capped off with a "maybe."

[bucky60]

Re: The EA football perception??

the people who play. On one side you have people who take responsibility for the decisions they make on the field, on the other you have people who blame EA for everything that happens.

And, a third, you have those that don't want improvements to the game, don't want a better, smarter CPU AI, and call those that do want it, "blame EA for everything".

The way I see it... I call the personnel, formation, assignments, pre-snap adjustments, and execute the play. If I do this well, I want the credit for being a good Madden player. If I don't do this well, I can blame EA even though they had little to do with my on-field decisions other than making them possible.

But you don't make your opponents on field calls and adjustments. And EA/TIB does have some control over that. In fact, they have total control over the CPU AI calls and adjustments, and how the players react. I said TOTAL CONTROL. So EA/TIB is responsible for personnel, formation, assignments, pre-snap adjustments, and player execution.

Indeed... Madden would be a much better game if not for the people that play it.

Madden would be a much better game if the CPU controlled players, for both the CPU and Human teams, had a much smarter AI, and all player attributes were represented more accurately. It would also be much better if off the field was replicated more realistically, like CPU free agent, trade, draft logic. I could go on.

Madden could be a much better game irregardless of the people that play it.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: The EA football perception??

EA can do whatever they want to the game - they can't do a thing about the people who play it. And that's the real issue... the people who play. On one side you have people who take responsibility for the decisions they make on the field, on the other you have people who blame EA for everything that happens.

The way I see it... I call the personnel, formation, assignments, pre-snap adjustments, and execute the play. If I do this well, I want the credit for being a good Madden player. If I don't do this well, I can blame EA even though they had little to do with my on-field decisions other than making them possible.

Then there are the guys that will do whatever the game allows regardless of whether it's 'football' or not as long as it works. On the flip side of that same coin you have players who think everything that works, can't be real football.

Furthermore, there are players who give basic football fundamentals really stupid names. Then there's the guys that think anything given a stupid name is no longer a viable football strategy.

Then you have guys that have watched football for years, and consider themselves experts on the game even though they have little exposure or knowledge about WHY the techniques and tactics they see as real football work in Madden.

Indeed... Madden would be a much better game if not for the people that play it.

Later

while there is some truth to this, there are many of us that DO understand football and do not fall into this category. To me, it's not just about winning the game. For example, I played a guy in an online franchise game last season and won the game 34-7. It wasn't a fun game at all. He used the Titans and he would drop back with Vince Young about 25 yards, roll out to the right, then throw deep. If he didn't throw it deep he'd put Chris Johnson in as a WR and run go routes with him. While that's fine, watching Vince Young out run every player on my defense as he runs backwards is just ridiculous. It's also ridiculous that he can throw it 60 yards on a rope across his body while running in the opposite direction. Yes, I was able to stop it, but it's not very much fun for me to play in a game like that. What would be nice is if actual physical feats could be realistic and built into the game. A real human can't make a 65 yard pass on a rope throwing across his body while running full speed in the opposite direction of the throw. This is one of the reasons why I feel long time Madden players hated 2k football. You couldn't do these things, and it affects their ability to pull out their "wild card" tactics in order to win. That has nothing to do with calling a better game. The less super-human, unrealistic abilities that the players on the field are able to do, the more the emphasis falls on utilizing realistic football strategy.

[K_GUN]

Re: The EA football perception??

while there is some truth to this, there are many of us that DO understand football and do not fall into this category. To me, it's not just about winning the game. For example, I played a guy in an online franchise game last season and won the game 34-7. It wasn't a fun game at all. He used the Titans and he would drop back with Vince Young about 25 yards, roll out to the right, then throw deep. If he didn't throw it deep he'd put Chris Johnson in as a WR and run go routes with him. While that's fine, watching Vince Young out run every player on my defense as he runs backwards is just ridiculous. It's also ridiculous that he can throw it 60 yards on a rope across his body while running in the opposite direction. Yes, I was able to stop it, but it's not very much fun for me to play in a game like that. What would be nice is if actual physical feats could be realistic and built into the game. A real human can't make a 65 yard pass on a rope throwing across his body while running full speed in the opposite direction of the throw. This is one of the reasons why I feel long time Madden players hated 2k football. You couldn't do these things, and it affects their ability to pull out their "wild card" tactics in order to win. That has nothing to do with calling a better game. The less super-human, unrealistic abilities that the players on the field are able to do, the more the emphasis falls on utilizing realistic football strategy.

fact.

but understand that most people--when they play videogames---just don't care if the Sam LB is in the wrong spot on 3rd down.....u & I know this & so does EA.....try this....find your co-workers (who even game)..and ask them if they play madden.....I know 5 guys in the workplace with me who've never even heard of OperationSports (their loss, I know).

heck--even myself...when I throw in a NASCAR game...I have no clue about all the finite details of racing--nor do I care...i just like going fast....so that's who you sim ballers are up against (the casual gamer)...not Tiburon.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: The EA football perception??

so that's who you sim ballers are up against (the casual gamer)...not Tiburon.

I see your point but I'd have to disagree. It's the game that allows you to be effective using those tactics. I'm not a very knowledgeable baseball fan, but given The Show's reputation I'm guessing I get my clock cleaned playing someone that's a knowledgeable baseball fan. If I'm able to pick up the game and throw a hundred straight fastballs and be successful that's not my fault, that's the developer's fault for allowing me to be successful using unrealistic strategies. If I'm playing NBA2K and trying to achieve the isomotion w/Dwight Howard I'm not going to be successful because the game won't allow me to be successful - so I learn not to do it. People run backwards w/the QB in Madden and play a certain way because they can get away with it. If they couldn't, they wouldn't do it.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: The EA football perception??

fact.

but understand that most people--when they play videogames---just don't care if the Sam LB is in the wrong spot on 3rd down.....u & I know this & so does EA.....try this....find your co-workers (who even game)..and ask them if they play madden.....I know 5 guys in the workplace with me who've never even heard of OperationSports (their loss, I know).

heck--even myself...when I throw in a NASCAR game...I have no clue about all the finite details of racing--nor do I care...i just like going fast....so that's who you sim ballers are up against (the casual gamer)...not Tiburon.

I know this has been said, in some shape or form repeatedly but it's worth saying again. No one is asking for EA to make Madden alienate the "casual" gamer. All they want is a way, option, setting or some factory mode, that makes the game play as realistic as possible.

Starting with the development cycle of Madden 10, EA has been consistently talking about a balance between realism and fun while saying things like "yeah, we could make ____ more realistic but that would take away from the pick up and play appeal of Madden". That's fine, most people understand that this is a business and there are more casual consumers than hardcore football enthusiast. However, I will never understand and have yet to see it explained, how from a business POV or a common sense one, that precludes EA from adding a "realistic" factory setting option, that's as realistic to NFL football as Tiburon can make it, in Madden.

If I missed that explanation, someone please direct me to the link. This stuff about casuals versus hardcore as a reason for Madden not being more realistic is a poor excuse, imo. Build the game as realistic as possible, then preset it to a casual friendly setting "out the box" for casuals while including the realistic setting "in the box" as an option for the hardcore.

This plan of building Madden casual friendly, then allowing hardcore gamers to attempt to make the game more realistic with sliders, is backwards, imo. I am honestly starting to believe that Tiburon, for whatever reason, didn't know how to make a realistic football game these past 6 years and the whole "realism/fun balance" thing was bunk.

[K_GUN]

Re: The EA football perception??

I know this has been said, in some shape or form repeatedly but it's worth saying again. No one is asking for EA to make Madden alienate the "casual" gamer. All they want is a way, option, setting or some factory mode, that makes the game play as realistic as possible.

Starting with the development cycle of Madden 10, EA has been consistently talking about a balance between realism and fun while saying things like "yeah, we could make ____ more realistic but that would take away from the pick up and play appeal of Madden". That's fine, most people understand that this is a business and there are more casual consumers than hardcore football enthusiast. However, I will never understand and have yet to see it explained, how from a business POV or a common sense one, that precludes EA from adding a "realistic" factory setting option, that's as realistic to NFL football as Tiburon can make it, in Madden.

If I missed that explanation, someone please direct me to the link. This stuff about casuals versus hardcore as a reason for Madden not being more realistic is a poor excuse, imo. Build the game as realistic as possible, then preset it to a casual friendly setting "out the box" for casuals while including the realistic setting "in the box" as an option for the hardcore.

This plan of building Madden casual friendly, then allowing hardcore gamers to attempt to make the game more realistic with sliders, is backwards, imo. I am honestly starting to believe that Tiburon, for whatever reason, didn't know how to make a realistic football game these past 6 years and the whole "realism/fun balance" thing was bunk.

but again...EA (like everyone) is on the planet to make money NOT to cater to the sim crowd.

so if joe sixpack can't just pick up and play...ala drop back with his QB & huck it deep off his back foot........he simply won't buy it

EDIT...for the record...I'm not defending EA....i once was a 2k fanboy--go look up my posts----im just stating "it is what it is"

[TNT713]

Re: The EA football perception??

And, a third, you have those that don't want improvements to the game, don't want a better, smarter CPU AI, and call those that do want it, "blame EA for everything".

I'm sorry but your point that I don't want a better AI is ludicrous rhetoric that is not based in fact. I already left a thread earlier because I didn't want to argue with you anymore. I'd rather not do it again.

I get it. You're not an on-field control freak like me. You may very well be a Franchise control freak though so I'll try to relate this in terms that apply to that mode specifically...

Would you start a Franchise then let the AI decide who you draft, who you trade, who you cut, and your depth chart on your Franchise?

I'm going to guess you would not (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Furthermore, I'm sure you also seek out ways you can improve your performance in what you deem the most important parts of the modes you choose to play (hence you draft speed).

Obviously we play for different reasons because you play a mode of the game that has never appealed to me since it's inception. Franchise mode does not appeal to Timothy N. Turner and no matter how many other people like it, it holds no value for me. So our interest in this game is fundamentally different.

But let's put that aside for a moment and discuss where you and I are the same. Neither of us trusts the CPU AI.

The difference is that you believe it will one day be smart enough. I do not. But these statements do not imply that the AI shouldn't be better. We would both appreciate a smarter AI, but I don't have the patience to wait for EA to make it better. I need smarter opponents RIGHT NOW. Online and Offline head-to-head play is how I achieve my goal of finding 'suitable' opponents.

I feel imposing your will on another player is the beauty of football, real life and otherwise. The beauty of playing how I play (if you're not on board, it's OK) is the wonderful juxtaposition. While I can't control what my opponent does, I can control what he will be successful doing and in essence - I can control what opponents do. The only tools I use are the tools EA provides for the specific purposes for which they were provided.

All that being what it is... The most important thing is whether we have fun playing or not. For me, my approach toward the game make it fun even at the height of frustrating losses because I leave every game with something I didn't have before the game started - Reps.

So I'll ask you... Is your approach to Madden leading to fun EVERY GAME?

If not, you are allowed to change your approach so that it is.

Later

[bucky60]

Re: The EA football perception??

I'm sorry but your point that I don't want a better AI is ludicrous rhetoric that is not based in fact. I already left a thread earlier because I didn't want to argue with you anymore. I'd rather not do it again.

I responded to you saying their are two types, those that make the right adjustments and those that "blame EA". Sorry, but that is grossly inaccurate. I just pointed that out.

Would you start a Franchise then let the AI decide who you draft, who you trade, who you cut, and your depth chart on your Franchise?

This has absolutely no relevance to whether the CPU AI is good enough or whether it should be improved. No relevance to whether the game should be improved in areas that it is deficient and unrealistic. Not sure why you always seem so reluctant to actually respond to what I post and questions I ask, and instead you bring up things that are totally and completely irrelevant. It's hard to have a productive discussion that way.

Obviously we play for different reasons because you play a mode of the game that has never appealed to me since it's inception. Franchise mode does not appeal to Timothy N. Turner and no matter how many other people like it, it holds no value for me. So our interest in this game is fundamentally different.

Very true. I don't knock you wanting improvements to the mode you play. I don't know why you keep disrespecting those that want Franchise and Gameplay changes that enhance Franchise mode. Why aren't you behind us even though you don't and never cared for the mode. Instead, all I've heard from you is how we SHOULDN'T want our Franchise mode, that we should stop wanting to kill the CPU 100-0, and grow up to the big boy table and play a human. I can go look up the quote if you like. Really, I don't knock you or disrespect you because of the mode you like to play in. Why do you knock and disrespect others?

But let's put that aside for a moment and discuss where you and I are the same. Neither of us trusts the CPU AI.

The difference is that you believe it will one day be smart enough. I do not.

The difference is, I believe the AI could be smart enough to make competitive games with realistic stats, and should. You believe the AI can't and that we shouldn't ask for it or even want it. I can dig up quotes with some of this as well (please don't make me, I don't have the energy to hunt stuff down).

I feel imposing your will on another player is the beauty of football, real life and otherwise.

That's GREAT. I really think that's great. I feel the beauty of football is building your franchise over the years through drafts, trades, and free agency, staying within money constraints. And playing the games out to see how well you put the team together. I thought MVP05 or MVP04 (I forget which one) had the best financial system I've seen in a sports game. Would like some of that included in Madden.

All that being what it is... The most important thing is whether we have fun playing or not.
So I'll ask you... Is your approach to Madden leading to fun EVERY GAME?

If not, you are allowed to change your approach so that it is.

What you seem to miss is that:

OR I'm also allowed to try and get EA/TIB to add/enhance/change my favorite mode so that it is infinitely more enjoyable.

[Broncos86]

Re: The EA football perception??

And, a third, you have those that don't want improvements to the game, don't want a better, smarter CPU AI, and call those that do want it, "blame EA for everything"....

Madden could be a much better game irregardless of the people that play it.

(Irregardless isn't a word, just FYI XD)

I think the above POV is a bit too narrow. I have trouble thinking that nobody wants to see the game improve. Nobody here is going to say that Madden is perfected. But there's a line between constructive criticism and suggestion and outright blame.

But you don't make your opponents on field calls and adjustments. And EA/TIB does have some control over that. In fact, they have total control over the CPU AI calls and adjustments, and how the players react. I said TOTAL CONTROL. So EA/TIB is responsible for personnel, formation, assignments, pre-snap adjustments, and player execution.

Madden would be a much better game if the CPU controlled players, for both the CPU and Human teams, had a much smarter AI, and all player attributes were represented more accurately. It would also be much better if off the field was replicated more realistically, like CPU free agent, trade, draft logic. I could go on.

I'm not sure I understand this point of view entirely, so I'm going to approach it with my initial understanding. Bucky, correct me if I've misinterpreted it.

Are you suggesting that Madden would in fact be more fun if we didn't actually control the players? Because that's coach mode, that's already in the game. But mind you, this is still a game. And while some love coach mode, others do not like watching the action. Video games require interaction. I prefer to play the QB position myself.