Madden NFL 12 Player Ratings - Green Bay Packers and Minnesota Vikings

[genghisfrog]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Player Ratings - Green Bay Packers and Minnesota Vikings

Bush is terrible period. He is good on special teams and that's it. The only reason he got that pick is because he studied film and knew Big Ben would throw it to Wallace so he left his man wide open and broke on the ball. Asked to play man 2 man, Bush can't cover anyone.

There is a reason the Packers had the best nickel pass d in the league this past year and it's not because of Bush. Sam Shields had a better statistical season than DRC, but I'm sure DRC isn't a 71 overall in your ratings. So keep thinking your ratings are accurate based on the limited research you've done.

The Steelers came back in the game after SHields and Woodson both got hurt. Bush had to play and was terrible outside of his INT. Remember that TD he gave up, yeah, thought so. Remember the Arizona game last year? Barnett and Bush got abused all day. Remember any game that Bush has played, he got abused in coverage.

[bucky60]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Player Ratings - Green Bay Packers and Minnesota Vikings

Barnett was a 91 before the injury. Shields was a 71. He also gave up a TD in the Super Bowl to Mike Wallace.

And Shields shouldn't have been a 71. He was basically our starting CB. GB D was in nickel most of the time, and in the nickel, Woodson is the nickel back.

Jarrett Bush had an INT in the big game and was in on the game-ending 4th down play. In fact, he almost picked that one of as well. Bush is a bit more aware and has better tackling skills. Why do you think he also plays FS?

I like how Bush is progressing as a DB, I'm not a Bush basher, but if you think Bush is more aware than Shields you are crazy. One, Bush would be starting or the nickel back instead of Shields. And did you even watch Shields play during the season? After what you have written so far in this post, I'm convinced you don't know what you are doing.

And did you notice the separation Finley got on that safety last night?

Shields still has a lot of learning to do. He was a rookie after all. It's one of those coaching decisions made every day in the NFL. When you go nickle, do you put in the young kid with the high ceiling who hasn't peaked yet, or the 4 year vet who is less athletic but a bit more polished right now?

Under the TT McCarthy regime, they put in the best player until the kid with the higher ceiling plays better. Sure Shields has a lot to learn, but he is still ahead of Bush as a DB. He's not in there because he's young with a higher ceiling, he's in there because he's already better than Bush. Get out of here with this crap.

The Packers chose the first option by putting Shields in the entire year.

False, they chose to put the better DB in. He has better cover skills, better balls skills. Bush is just starting to become on OK DB after 5-6 years.

Doesn't mean he was light-years ahead of Bush though.

He was ahead of Bush. As much as I like Bush and am happy he's progressing as a DB, he STILL is not ready to start.

This is something I wish Madden would take into consideration by getting rid of the OVR rating like back in Madden 99. Makes you make tough choices and see who works best for your team and playing/coaching style.

I don't want to hide the overall, but I do want it to be inaccurate, or a range, that gets more accurate with how good your GM, Scouts, and Coaches evaluate and how long the player is in the NFL. But you COULD NOT BE MORE OFF ON SHIELDS AND BUSH.

[bucky60]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Player Ratings - Green Bay Packers and Minnesota Vikings

The reason most of these posts are ignored is because people can't handle logic, reason, and truth. I try to bring evidence over and over again and it seems I am only met with opinion.

I don't know, so far most of what I read from you is opinion. But that's to be expected when rating players. I give my opinion, but that's after I've watched EVERY SINGLE PACKER GAME. I think you do the best that you personally can since it would be very time consuming to watch every single play of every single game.

And again, did you see Finley get separation on the DB last night? It was a safety, but still a DB. Did you also see Quarless get separation on that medium slant. Both were out wide. With DJ Williams, GB will have scary TE's this year.

[bucky60]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Player Ratings - Green Bay Packers and Minnesota Vikings

I was not referring to the OVR ratings. I was referring to the whole SPD vs. Technique issue. I agree that OVR ratings are WIDELY speculative and open to opinion. If they weren't, we wouldn't have these great discussions!

The only ratings that would be less "opinion" would be physical ratings, and even those are opinion more than fact. The rest are ALL opinion. But that is the nature of the game, and the best you can do. I just seem to disagree with some of your Opinions on packer ratings. I say packer ratings because that's the only team I follow with such DEPTH. The rest of the teams I follow just casually.

[bucky60]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Player Ratings - Green Bay Packers and Minnesota Vikings

It's not based on two plays. Just two examples. If it was not much more in depth than that, they both would not have been 71 OVRs before that point. Shields played very well as a rookie. But then again, so did Tyrone Williams in 96. I have seen every Packer game since 1995 either in person or on TV. You fail to realize that teams will start players based on particular skill sets over others. Bush came into that season with more experience as I pointed out, and it showed in the Super Bowl. I don't recall him getting torched for a TD in that game.

Didn't he get torched in the END ZONE by Hines Ward? You miss that? I don't hold that against Bush like you seem to hold one play against Shields. Bush started off as a BAD DB. He turned himself into almost an average DB. Seems he's even gotten better this year. But he read ONE play correctly in the SB to make a great read and play. Shields was doing that all season. You say you've watched all GB games since 95. I'm not you, so I can't say you don't, but I have a VERY HARD TIME BELIEVING IT.

And BTW, Bush was rated as 71 as a FS, not a CB. Convert that rating to a CB and its probably more like a 65. Shields is a better CB than Bush, yes. But not when Bush is a FS and Shields a CB. You are forgetting that Madden has different OVR rating calculations for different positions.

I don't care what Bush and Shields were rated in the game last year, or this year, Shields was and is much better than Bush as a DB.

And yes, I fully understand that Tramon broke the play up, but Bush was also there in coverage, not picking his nose back at the goal line.

Just stop. I could say dumb things like Bush was picking his nose at the Goal Line when he got beat by Ward. Please stop with those dumb comments.

[bucky60]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Player Ratings - Green Bay Packers and Minnesota Vikings

Bush is terrible period.

Bush isn't terrible. He used to be. He turned himself into a marginal Nickel and an OK fourth. He's made progress in coverage even between last year and this year. But he definitely was not better than Shields, even in Shields rookie year.

He is good on special teams and that's it.

He is great on special teams. And he has gotten much better in coverage lately. He may be GB's 4th or 5th CB. And he is probably better than any other teams 4th or 5th CB. But that's just about it.

The only reason he got that pick is because he studied film and knew Big Ben would throw it to Wallace so he left his man wide open and broke on the ball. Asked to play man 2 man, Bush can't cover anyone.

I give Bush MUCH KUDOS for studying and recognizing that play. He deserves that. But I somewhat agree that Shields is much better in coverage than Bush is.

There is a reason the Packers had the best nickel pass d in the league this past year and it's not because of Bush. Sam Shields had a better statistical season than DRC, but I'm sure DRC isn't a 71 overall in your ratings. So keep thinking your ratings are accurate based on the limited research you've done.

Yeah, kind of crazy someone rating Shields so low. He was basically our starting CB as Woodson really played the nickel position.

The Steelers came back in the game after SHields and Woodson both got hurt. Bush had to play and was terrible outside of his INT. Remember that TD he gave up, yeah, thought so. Remember the Arizona game last year? Barnett and Bush got abused all day. Remember any game that Bush has played, he got abused in coverage.

With Tramon, Shields and Wooodson in the game, the Steelers were really doing NOTHING offensively in the SB. They really only did anything on offense when Woodson and Shields were out. You speak 100% truth. I guess some people would call that opinion.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Player Ratings - Green Bay Packers and Minnesota Vikings

Bush is terrible period. He is good on special teams and that's it. The only reason he got that pick is because he studied film and knew Big Ben would throw it to Wallace so he left his man wide open and broke on the ball. Asked to play man 2 man, Bush can't cover anyone.

There is a reason the Packers had the best nickel pass d in the league this past year and it's not because of Bush. Sam Shields had a better statistical season than DRC, but I'm sure DRC isn't a 71 overall in your ratings. So keep thinking your ratings are accurate based on the limited research you've done.

The Steelers came back in the game after SHields and Woodson both got hurt. Bush had to play and was terrible outside of his INT. Remember that TD he gave up, yeah, thought so. Remember the Arizona game last year? Barnett and Bush got abused all day. Remember any game that Bush has played, he got abused in coverage.

Limited research? I have ratings for 17000+ players! All based on scouting data! How is that "limited"? EA can't even boast that! In fact, I don't think anyone online can.

Bush is definitely the worse of the two as a CB, but when you move Bush and his skills to the FS position, his OVR matches that Shields. Did you ever play football? Ever coach? If you did you would realize that teams move players around to play to their strengths.

Was Bush playing CB or FS in those situations? CB. And I said that as a CB he only equates to a 65 at best. But since he largely played FS until injuries occurred, that is how he was rated?

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Player Ratings - Green Bay Packers and Minnesota Vikings

And Shields shouldn't have been a 71. He was basically our starting CB. GB D was in nickel most of the time, and in the nickel, Woodson is the nickel back.



I like how Bush is progressing as a DB, I'm not a Bush basher, but if you think Bush is more aware than Shields you are crazy. One, Bush would be starting or the nickel back instead of Shields. And did you even watch Shields play during the season? After what you have written so far in this post, I'm convinced you don't know what you are doing.

Yes, I do contend that Bush is the more aware player because of his experience...and it isn't by much as you can see.

And did you notice the separation Finley got on that safety last night?

Watch the video. They have all 3 grabs. That last one for 17 yards is not what I would call seperation. The DB, #23 Hamza Abdullah, gave him the inside on the post, then quickly closed in for the tackle. That is the 86 SPD of Abdullah vs. the 77 SPD of Finley. If Finley had such great separation, why didn't he take it for a larger run after the catch? He caught the ball at the 30 and was tackled at the 33 after having the inside and maybe a yard of separation at most. Not great separation if you ask me. And as for the deep one that they missed on, that was against Joey Porter with his BLAZING 72 SPD, a full 5 under that of Finley and a guy he SHOULD beat even without getting into better position.

Under the TT McCarthy regime, they put in the best player until the kid with the higher ceiling plays better. Sure Shields has a lot to learn, but he is still ahead of Bush as a DB. He's not in there because he's young with a higher ceiling, he's in there because he's already better than Bush. Get out of here with this crap.

Shields is ahead of Bush as a CB. Shields still has a ton to learn and his ratings reflect that.

False, they chose to put the better DB in. He has better cover skills, better balls skills. Bush is just starting to become on OK DB after 5-6 years.

They played two different positions. Shields is by far the better CB.

He was ahead of Bush. As much as I like Bush and am happy he's progressing as a DB, he STILL is not ready to start.

I never said Bush was ready to start. I just said that as a FS, his strengths are further exemplified which allowed him to stand out a bit more.

I don't want to hide the overall, but I do want it to be inaccurate, or a range, that gets more accurate with how good your GM, Scouts, and Coaches evaluate and how long the player is in the NFL. But you COULD NOT BE MORE OFF ON SHIELDS AND BUSH.

They largely played two different positions all last year. I am not saying that Bush is the better player as a CB. But I am saying that he did make up for his lesser physical ability with better recognition skills. That's what FS's have to do back there. Read, and react.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Player Ratings - Green Bay Packers and Minnesota Vikings

The only ratings that would be less "opinion" would be physical ratings, and even those are opinion more than fact. The rest are ALL opinion. But that is the nature of the game, and the best you can do. I just seem to disagree with some of your Opinions on packer ratings. I say packer ratings because that's the only team I follow with such DEPTH. The rest of the teams I follow just casually.

All of these ratings are based on higher opinions than ours though. The scouting data is pretty legit from TSX. After all, they provide ALL the NCAA and NFL scouting data for CBS Sports.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Player Ratings - Green Bay Packers and Minnesota Vikings

Didn't he get torched in the END ZONE by Hines Ward? You miss that? I don't hold that against Bush like you seem to hold one play against Shields. Bush started off as a BAD DB. He turned himself into almost an average DB. Seems he's even gotten better this year. But he read ONE play correctly in the SB to make a great read and play. Shields was doing that all season. You say you've watched all GB games since 95. I'm not you, so I can't say you don't, but I have a VERY HARD TIME BELIEVING IT.

I have. I was in 5th grade and haven't missed a game on TV or in person since. I even made sure that when I left WI that I had a way to see all the games on Directv. It's a pretty big deal to me. In fact, I got to meet a bunch of them down here in Dallas at the Omni Hotel when they stayed about 2 miles away from where I currently reside.

I don't care what Bush and Shields were rated in the game last year, or this year, Shields was and is much better than Bush as a DB.

When both are rated as CBs, Shields is much better. When Shields is a CB and Bush a FS, they have equal OVR ratings in Madden.

Just stop. I could say dumb things like Bush was picking his nose at the Goal Line when he got beat by Ward. Please stop with those dumb comments.

I will choose to comment as I wish. That's the great thing about a forum so long as you obey the forum rules.

[kunner]

They largely played two different positions all last year. I am not saying that Bush is the better player as a CB. But I am saying that he did make up for his lesser physical ability with better recognition skills. That's what FS's have to do back there. Read, and react.

Yes, they played 2 largely different positions last year. Shields covered one of the top 2 receivers for almost every team, while Bush was a gunner on special teams. Im not a Bush basher, i always thought Packer fans were too hard on him for the botched fumble against the Giants, when it should have been directed at Bert Farve. Bush is progressing, but if im not mistaken, you also have Brandon Underwood above him, who didnt even dress in 3/4 of the games last year, and will more than likely be cut this season.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Player Ratings - Green Bay Packers and Minnesota Vikings

Yes, they played 2 largely different positions last year. Shields covered one of the top 2 receivers for almost every team, while Bush was a gunner on special teams. Im not a Bush basher, i always thought Packer fans were too hard on him for the botched fumble against the Giants, when it should have been directed at Bert Farve. Bush is progressing, but if im not mistaken, you also have Brandon Underwood above him, who didnt even dress in 3/4 of the games last year, and will more than likely be cut this season.

I am referring to one playing CB vs. one playing FS for the majority of the season.

[kunner]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Player Ratings - Green Bay Packers and Minnesota Vikings

Bush didnt play a whole lot in the secondary during the season. The only reason he saw time was after Morgan Burnett got hurt.

Right now, Bush is on the bubble, he will only make that team because of his special teams play. He might make it as the 4th safety, but watching last night, M.D. Jennings played a solid game behind a pretty suspect defense with Pat Lee and Bush out there at corner.

Im not saying your wrong, i just think the foundation for what you are basing your ratings on is skewed. I will take a look at all the ratings you have done, and i will probably more than likely use some of them.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Player Ratings - Green Bay Packers and Minnesota Vikings

Bush didnt play a whole lot in the secondary during the season. The only reason he saw time was after Morgan Burnett got hurt.

Right now, Bush is on the bubble, he will only make that team because of his special teams play. He might make it as the 4th safety, but watching last night, M.D. Jennings played a solid game behind a pretty suspect defense with Pat Lee and Bush out there at corner.

Im not saying your wrong, i just think the foundation for what you are basing your ratings on is skewed. I will take a look at all the ratings you have done, and i will probably more than likely use some of them.

Go ahead and compare the preliminary ratings between both players and let me know what you think.

[bucky60]

Re: Madden NFL 12 Player Ratings - Green Bay Packers and Minnesota Vikings

Limited research? I have ratings for 17000+ players! All based on scouting data! How is that "limited"? EA can't even boast that! In fact, I don't think anyone online can.

With all your 17000+ scouting reports, you must have missed that Bush has been a CB all pre-season. He's not playing Safety.

Was Bush playing CB or FS in those situations? CB. And I said that as a CB he only equates to a 65 at best. But since he largely played FS until injuries occurred, that is how he was rated?

He played CB until last year. Where he played both CB and S. In the SB he was a CB. And he played VERY sparingly during the season, except for special teams.