NBA 2K12 Developer Insight #4 - Playcall System

[mutumbo888]

Re: NBA 2K12 Developer Insight #4 - Playcall System

changing D on the fly has cheese written all over it imo. it's already in the game but this takes it even further.

changing D on the fly (all in one possession) is very unrealistic. at max you'd see an Nba team doing a press and a zone but that happens pretty rarely.


I suspect cheesers will be doing something like:

the opponent inbounds --> press FC trap pressure
the opponent passes it into the post --> press Lock Down Paint
the opponent passes it backout to a 3pt shooter --> press Pressure Shooters

that's cheese if you ask me. it becomes not a game of reactions by manually
controlling the players, but a game of "coach" reactions, pressing buttons to have the CPU do all the work for you. it's like in a football game someone called a "run-stop" on the fly play AFTER the snap, and after you see that it's a handoff. ...not realistic.

Nba teams usually stay in the defensive set for the entire possession. it would be almost impossible for the players to collectively react that fast to the coach barking out the play. but in videogames, the players will respond immediately with no consequences.

there should definitely be a limit on how many times you can switch it up in one possession (pref. 2x or less) and that it tires your team out. this has been some undercover cheese that's gone on in
nba2k imo.

that'll be something to watch for when I jump online.

other than that, this should expand the game a lot and the CPU will probably play alot better too.

[ffaacc03]

Re: NBA 2K12 Developer Insight #4 - Playcall System

changing D on the fly has cheese written all over it imo. it's already in the game but this takes it even further.

changing D on the fly (all in one possession) is very unrealistic. at max you'd see an Nba team doing a press and a zone but that happens pretty rarely.


I suspect cheesers will be doing something like:

the opponent inbounds --> press FC trap pressure
the opponent passes it into the post --> press Lock Down Paint
the opponent passes it backout to a 3pt shooter --> press Pressure Shooters

that's cheese if you ask me. it becomes not a game of reactions by manually
controlling the players, but a game of "coach" reactions, pressing buttons to have the CPU do all the work for you. it's like in a football game someone called a "run-stop" on the fly play AFTER the snap, and after you see that it's a handoff. ...not realistic.

Nba teams usually stay in the defensive set for the entire possession. it would be almost impossible for the players to collectively react that fast to the coach barking out the play. but in videogames, the players will respond immediately with no consequences.

there should definitely be a limit on how many times you can switch it up in one possession (pref. 2x or less) and that it tires your team out. this has been some undercover cheese that's gone on in
nba2k imo.

that'll be something to watch for when I jump online.

other than that, this should expand the game a lot and the CPU will probably play alot better too.

It would be unsim but not sure that would be cheesing (something without a counter, unavoidable, a fault in the system, not ment to be) ... at least if it is done like in 2k11 ... while the players did react to your command, the reaction while inmediate, was not instantly ... this created holes on the defense while the players directed to their new set, therefor creating opportunities (think on it like a player always trying to go for steals and offensive fouls, the defense was in constant scramble) ... then again, beyond its effectiveness, what made me unconfortable was the unsim part and that it forced me to go the route of taking what the defense gave me, instead of stablishing my offensive scheme.

P.S:
I would welcome the stamina hit if multiple sets are run per possesion

[Knickerbocker]

Re: NBA 2K12 Developer Insight #4 - Playcall System

changing D on the fly has cheese written all over it imo. it's already in the game but this takes it even further.

changing D on the fly (all in one possession) is very unrealistic. at max you'd see an Nba team doing a press and a zone but that happens pretty rarely.


I suspect cheesers will be doing something like:

the opponent inbounds --> press FC trap pressure
the opponent passes it into the post --> press Lock Down Paint
the opponent passes it backout to a 3pt shooter --> press Pressure Shooters

that's cheese if you ask me. it becomes not a game of reactions by manually
controlling the players, but a game of "coach" reactions, pressing buttons to have the CPU do all the work for you. it's like in a football game someone called a "run-stop" on the fly play AFTER the snap, and after you see that it's a handoff. ...not realistic.

Nba teams usually stay in the defensive set for the entire possession. it would be almost impossible for the players to collectively react that fast to the coach barking out the play. but in videogames, the players will respond immediately with no consequences.

there should definitely be a limit on how many times you can switch it up in one possession (pref. 2x or less) and that it tires your team out. this has been some undercover cheese that's gone on in
nba2k imo.

that'll be something to watch for when I jump online.

other than that, this should expand the game a lot and the CPU will probably play alot better too.

Changing defenses will not only create window of oportunity (open players) but most likely mismatches too (if you go from defending the paint to pressuring the perimeter), so I would welcome anyone to do it in an online match.

[stillfeelme]

Re: NBA 2K12 Developer Insight #4 - Playcall System

changing D on the fly has cheese written all over it imo. it's already in the game but this takes it even further.

changing D on the fly (all in one possession) is very unrealistic. at max you'd see an Nba team doing a press and a zone but that happens pretty rarely.


I suspect cheesers will be doing something like:

the opponent inbounds --> press FC trap pressure
the opponent passes it into the post --> press Lock Down Paint
the opponent passes it backout to a 3pt shooter --> press Pressure Shooters

that's cheese if you ask me. it becomes not a game of reactions by manually.

I don't think it will be cheese because it is a risk and reward for each strategy you select. The defense may win some the offense may win some. You have to know who to foul who to let get theirs and try to shut down the rest of the team.
Defense

This gives the user a quick access to setting up the Defensive Settings on the fly:

• Pressure Shooters – for opposing players good at med/long range shots; tight onball, deny ball, go over screens, hedge on screens

This is designed to take away the perimeter players, but it leaves your post defense with no help. If you have a good offensive post player you have a one on one matchup. I hope there is a fatigue negative for pressure on high. If 2K gets the on ball defense right for each player example just because you put on ball defense on tight and your player is not a good on the ball defender it should hurt you by selecting this strategy. Think Mike Bibby on Derrick Rose as an example.

• Lock Down Paint – double down in the post for all players, go under screens

By your example if they switch to this you make the defense pay by kicking the ball back out and take the open jumpshot or you pass it to the open man that doubled off of you. Third option is to split the double team and take the shot anyway may get fouled may make the shot. On the offensive end you would want to space the floor and let your post player work.

• Focus on Stars – for opposing star players; always double, tight onball, deny ball

This is designed to take the star players out of the game. Again like above you can make the defense pay if you spot the double in the post and know who to pass to. Now if your player is a guard that has the ball in their hand a lot you are trying to get it out of their hand. This may not work if the star can spot the open man that can make a shot, if they miss then it works. This is the type of defense you would try to use on the Bulls IMO, a team with a dominant star and not consistent shooters on the floor.

• Constant Pressure – double team on drive for guards, double team in post for bigs, play tight on stars, go over screens, hard hedge

Now this one seems to be combining a lot of different things into one strategy. However you can counter this by passing out of the double team. Someone will be open if they are doubling the post and doubling the drives. I actually think there should be some increase in fatigue rate drop for using this one too. This one involves a lot of movement for everybody on your defense to help out.

[Matty Aqua]

Re: NBA 2K12 Developer Insight #4 - Playcall System

Da Czar - Firstly thank you for answering everybody's questions!...and giving us info that helps us pass time until October release date!...The wait kills me every year!


My only questions at this point of time are - in a match (12 min quarters) are you guys getting realistic stats?...and were there major changes to things like player tendencies to get players to play a certain style?

[Da_Czar]

Re: NBA 2K12 Developer Insight #4 - Playcall System

Da Czar - Firstly thank you for answering everybody's questions!...and giving us info that helps us pass time until October release date!...The wait kills me every year!


My only questions at this point of time are - in a match (12 min quarters) are you guys getting realistic stats?...and were there major changes to things like player tendencies to get players to play a certain style?

No problem aquaman. The wait kills me too It's almost worse that I get to play it THEN starve until Oct. ver cruel punishment for a hoop fiend.

The stats were looking very very good in the build I played. Game had a great tempo and pace to it. I can't pinpoint once specific change that made it so.

Also there was something about the player tendencies that just seemed enhanced somehow. I mean melo really played more like himself once he received the ball. The same for other key players. I don't know what they did honestly and I don't recall if there were new tendencies but what was there just seemed to me to work better as far as players playing like themselves.

[made in eu]

Re: NBA 2K12 Developer Insight #4 - Playcall System

Da Czar, can i ask you please if pre set simulation sliders and real player fg% are still in? And are they improved? Thank you.

[mutumbo888]

Re: NBA 2K12 Developer Insight #4 - Playcall System

I don't think it will be cheese because it is a risk and reward for each strategy you select. The defense may win some the offense may win some. You have to know who to foul who to let get theirs and try to shut down the rest of the team.
Defense

This gives the user a quick access to setting up the Defensive Settings on the fly:

• Pressure Shooters – for opposing players good at med/long range shots; tight onball, deny ball, go over screens, hedge on screens

This is designed to take away the perimeter players, but it leaves your post defense with no help. If you have a good offensive post player you have a one on one matchup. I hope there is a fatigue negative for pressure on high. If 2K gets the on ball defense right for each player example just because you put on ball defense on tight and your player is not a good on the ball defender it should hurt you by selecting this strategy. Think Mike Bibby on Derrick Rose as an example.

• Lock Down Paint – double down in the post for all players, go under screens

By your example if they switch to this you make the defense pay by kicking the ball back out and take the open jumpshot or you pass it to the open man that doubled off of you. Third option is to split the double team and take the shot anyway may get fouled may make the shot. On the offensive end you would want to space the floor and let your post player work.

• Focus on Stars – for opposing star players; always double, tight onball, deny ball

This is designed to take the star players out of the game. Again like above you can make the defense pay if you spot the double in the post and know who to pass to. Now if your player is a guard that has the ball in their hand a lot you are trying to get it out of their hand. This may not work if the star can spot the open man that can make a shot, if they miss then it works. This is the type of defense you would try to use on the Bulls IMO, a team with a dominant star and not consistent shooters on the floor.

• Constant Pressure – double team on drive for guards, double team in post for bigs, play tight on stars, go over screens, hard hedge

Now this one seems to be combining a lot of different things into one strategy. However you can counter this by passing out of the double team. Someone will be open if they are doubling the post and doubling the drives. I actually think there should be some increase in fatigue rate drop for using this one too. This one involves a lot of movement for everybody on your defense to help out.

.



good points. as long as the AI defense doesn't have some godlike response and recovery when switching sets in a possession, and there is a risk to doing it, should be ok.

Idk I'm undecided about how realistic it is to have cpu actions that create a magical pressurization at the push of the button. for example when someone presses 'double team' when someone is about to shoot, it's almost like they really pressed "turbo pressure." even if the 2nd defender isn't there, you get a magical pressure effect simply by pressing the double team button. not entirely saying it shouldn't be in the game, just saying that knowing when to press the double team button shouldn't take precedent over 'on the court' instincts of manually positioning your player, etc.

[Green Magic]

Re: NBA 2K12 Developer Insight #4 - Playcall System

I hope that their wont be so much tweaking to the silders

[stillfeelme]

Re: NBA 2K12 Developer Insight #4 - Playcall System

.



good points. as long as the AI defense doesn't have some godlike response and recovery when switching sets in a possession, and there is a risk to doing it, should be ok.

Idk I'm undecided about how realistic it is to have cpu actions that create a magical pressurization at the push of the button. for example when someone presses 'double team' when someone is about to shoot, it's almost like they really pressed "turbo pressure." even if the 2nd defender isn't there, you get a magical pressure effect simply by pressing the double team button. not entirely saying it shouldn't be in the game, just saying that knowing when to press the double team button shouldn't take precedent over 'on the court' instincts of manually positioning your player, etc.

From what I have been hearing from Da_Czar in this thread the CPU plays real without cheese. I think he was talking about at the All-Star level. There was another preview given by Jr?? in that CBS preview and he was answering some good questions about how realistic the CPU plays. Once you are able to simulate real action without the need to speed up the CPU movement or give the CPU any advantage to keep the score close, then I think we will have a game that comes down to how well we are able to execute. I think this is where 2K is taking it from everything I have read or seen. I don't think it will be like 2K11 where you could see the CPU get a speed burst. I know what you are saying though.

[secondcity t]

Re: NBA 2K12 Developer Insight #4 - Playcall System

changing D on the fly has cheese written all over it imo. it's already in the game but this takes it even further.

changing D on the fly (all in one possession) is very unrealistic. at max you'd see an Nba team doing a press and a zone but that happens pretty rarely.


I suspect cheesers will be doing something like:

the opponent inbounds --> press FC trap pressure
the opponent passes it into the post --> press Lock Down Paint
the opponent passes it backout to a 3pt shooter --> press Pressure Shooters

that's cheese if you ask me. it becomes not a game of reactions by manually

On the same token, people online change their plays to lead pass. There needs to be balance on both sides.

[vicente]

What's the next insight about? And will there be a presentation insight?

[mgrand15]

Re: NBA 2K12 Developer Insight #4 - Playcall System

changing D on the fly has cheese written all over it imo. it's already in the game but this takes it even further.

changing D on the fly (all in one possession) is very unrealistic. at max you'd see an Nba team doing a press and a zone but that happens pretty rarely.


I suspect cheesers will be doing something like:

the opponent inbounds --> press FC trap pressure
the opponent passes it into the post --> press Lock Down Paint
the opponent passes it backout to a 3pt shooter --> press Pressure Shooters

that's cheese if you ask me. it becomes not a game of reactions by manually
controlling the players, but a game of "coach" reactions, pressing buttons to have the CPU do all the work for you. it's like in a football game someone called a "run-stop" on the fly play AFTER the snap, and after you see that it's a handoff. ...not realistic.

Nba teams usually stay in the defensive set for the entire possession. it would be almost impossible for the players to collectively react that fast to the coach barking out the play. but in videogames, the players will respond immediately with no consequences.

I think you're overreacting a bit and forgetting how fast plays happen. In your hypothetical scenario, the defense wouldn't be able to adjust fast enough, so it wouldn't make sense to constantly change your strategy.

1. Once you break the full court press, the defense is at enough of a disadvantage where you should be be able to get a good look. (at the very least, you'll have a 4 on 3 or something.

2. Assuming you don't score after breaking the press, let's assume you pass it into the post. If opponent decides to lock down the paint, they'll send a double team at your man. You should have an open man somewhere (most likely 3 pt land), so you pass it out to him.

3. If he presses "Pressure Shooters," it's too late because the defense is forced to rotate and they're on their heels. You should have an open shot and if you don't, even with Lockdown Paint on, you'll have a defender flying at you relatively out of control. It won't be hard to pump fake and get past him or just drive right by him. From there, it's all about getting to the rim or finding the open man if the defense rotates in time.

I have to say, I'm loving the offensive updates. I've been dying for a playcall system that had multiple options and really used offensive set type designs instead of just singular plays. For example, NBA teams don't really call plays every time down but there is usually a plan and organization that you don't really get when you freelance in 2K.

Something like, you call "Set A" - from here the PG can either dribble to the left wing or the right wing. If he goes left, the wing player (lets say SG) on the left cuts down and spaces the floor out. Big man on the left posts up and big man on the right flashes high. If you give it to the man posting up, the PF cuts to the rim and everyone just spaces out and plays over.

If you give it to the PF, the C moves towards the middle and tries to post up his man there. If that doesn't work, C clears out of the lane, and the plays dead. If you give it to the wing at the top of the key, you have to swing the ball to the other wing, then the bigs shift over and try to get the ball in the post on the other side.

I would love the option for the PG to dribble to the opposite side in the beginning of the play and trigger the same play but with the different players. So everything would be the same except the C would be flashing high and the PF would be posting up this time. This is just a basic play but I'd love to have the option of really running an offense. Not just singular plays.

Kinda long winded, but I'm ecstatic about this insight especially the inbound plays. Such a small detail that makes a huge difference - especially since there are so many options and strategies behind out of bound plays. (How many times have you gotten stuck inbounding with your best shooter when you needed a 3 with 1 second left )

[NINJAK2]

Re: NBA 2K12 Developer Insight #4 - Playcall System

changing D on the fly has cheese written all over it imo. it's already in the game but this takes it even further.

changing D on the fly (all in one possession) is very unrealistic. at max you'd see an Nba team doing a press and a zone but that happens pretty rarely.


I suspect cheesers will be doing something like:

the opponent inbounds --> press FC trap pressure
the opponent passes it into the post --> press Lock Down Paint
the opponent passes it backout to a 3pt shooter --> press Pressure Shooters

that's cheese if you ask me. it becomes not a game of reactions by manually
controlling the players, but a game of "coach" reactions, pressing buttons to have the CPU do all the work for you. it's like in a football game someone called a "run-stop" on the fly play AFTER the snap, and after you see that it's a handoff. ...not realistic.

Nba teams usually stay in the defensive set for the entire possession. it would be almost impossible for the players to collectively react that fast to the coach barking out the play. but in videogames, the players will respond immediately with no consequences.

there should definitely be a limit on how many times you can switch it up in one possession (pref. 2x or less) and that it tires your team out. this has been some undercover cheese that's gone on in
nba2k imo.

that'll be something to watch for when I jump online.

other than that, this should expand the game a lot and the CPU will probably play alot better too.

Maybe these strategies will work similar to the defense, shot selection, rebounding, and (forgot the fourth one) strategy choices during timeouts. In other words once you select a strategy you have to wait for the time of that strategy to elapse before selecting another. If not, hopefully the constant switching of defenses and/or the type of defense selected (ex: constant pressure) will have a bigger effect on fatigue.

[guesswhozbak17]

Maybe these strategies will work similar to the defense, shot selection, rebounding, and (forgot the fourth one) strategy choices during timeouts. In other words once you select a strategy you have to wait for the time of that strategy to elapse before selecting another. If not, hopefully the constant switching of defenses and/or the type of defense selected (ex: constant pressure) will have a bigger effect on fatigue.

That would be a good idea as well