Dallas Clark is faster than Reggie Wayne?

[CRMosier_LM]

Re: Dallas Clark is faster than Reggie Wayne?

They are not relative to position. Whoever said that is wrong. Donny moore was asked about this very topic one time(why 40 times and speed don't match up) and I believe he said that some guys have faster game speed than their 40 times. So apparently Donny Moore thinks Dallas Clark's game speed is faster than Reggie Wayne's. I really wish they would get rid of the one guy doing ratings thing. The fact that he can set ratings to whatever he wants with no checks or balances doesn't make sense to me. I know he can't see and read up on every player that plays, so I'm sure he's just taking guesses on guys. Guys like Denarious Moore who many called the best WR on the Raiders during preseason and minicamp and, from the looks early in the season, he still is. Yet he has pedestrian ratings. That's why we need a ratings group or committee or something other than just Donny Moore taking guesses on players.

He isn't the only guy doing the ratings.

[NYwRiter94]

Re: Dallas Clark is faster than Reggie Wayne?

I find this really annoying when I break a run with Ahmad Bradshaw and see some no name linebacker gaining ground on me. Honestly, I'm pretty sure DeMarcus Ware would get 1000+ yards rushing if you put him at HB in your game.

[wheelman990]

Re: Dallas Clark is faster than Reggie Wayne?

Funny I just found this thread, I was just playing a game where I screen it to Dallas Clark and he out ran all the defenders(and they werent far behind to start with-3-5 yards maybe at most) and they never caught him the whole way.

Good ol EA. I was wondering how he outran the CB's/DB's/Etc...

[Richieh]

Re: Dallas Clark is faster than Reggie Wayne?

I find this really annoying when I break a run with Ahmad Bradshaw and see some no name linebacker gaining ground on me. Honestly, I'm pretty sure DeMarcus Ware would get 1000+ yards rushing if you put him at HB in your game.

Don't forget that carrying the ball slows a runner down.
I read something once where some timings were done, and it was typically costing two seconds on a 100 yard dash.

[poopoop]

Re: Dallas Clark is faster than Reggie Wayne?

Donny moore was asked about this very topic one time(why 40 times and speed don't match up) and I believe he said that some guys have faster game speed than their 40 times. So apparently Donny Moore thinks Dallas Clark's game speed is faster than Reggie Wayne's.

Yeah gamespeed is a fancy way of saying: I'm going to rate these players however I feel like.

[MrCheese]

Re: Dallas Clark is faster than Reggie Wayne?

Yeah gamespeed is a fancy way of saying: I'm going to rate these players however I feel like.

+1

Yep I agree

[speedy9386]

Re: Dallas Clark is faster than Reggie Wayne?

Does anyone else notice how sometimes a defender that's blitzing will just gain super speed and pursuit and run right by your blockers?

[BezO]

Re: Dallas Clark is faster than Reggie Wayne?

...Jerry rice wasn't known as a burner, but he had had quick feet and a break away burst. He was never caught from behind, and as he said, he "ran scared."

40 time is not the end-all/be-all of speed. Acceleration plays a part as well. I believe they talked about this on NBC with Usain Bolt and how he does not have a great 40 time because he build up to his top speed a little slower, but his overall top speed is very high. So, for example, and I'm just making up these numbers, he might have 105 speed in Madden, but only 92 acceleration.

What's Rice's acc in Madden? Seems like they could put it at 100, keep is speed realistic and everything would be cool. And like you said, the opposite for Bolt, if he played. I think his acc would have to be lower than 92 though. That's still pretty high.

When I say that EA is afraid of speed, I am referring to how in the past they have said they don't really like it when people can take a very fast player who hasn't proved himself on the playing field and dominate with him in Madden. A lot of this has to do with awareness though. With user control, the player on the field is only as good as the user, and in the hands of a talented user with a "god cam" to see the action from, that player can play at an All-Pro/Hall of fame level. For example, ever since Madden 07 I have been tearing people apart with Vernon Davis. Though to be fair, Davis isn't used very much by the 49ers. Alex Smith tends to forget he is on the field. [until last week]

Yeah, awareness and user control is a problem. I still don't think Madden does a good enough job with other ratings though... some seem not to work well, some I disagree with. Route running & man coverage need major work. A speedy WR with no route running skills can be kept in check without artificially reducing his speed. I think awareness is really only a problem for RBs.

Limited animations also play a part. No reaching/grabbing tackles on smaller players, for example. DB/WR interaction.

But you can't just shaft a player on his speed rating just because he lacks awareness. What happens when these guys get in the open field?

But I think there are other issues effecting this:

1. Engaged Play Mobility (I'm crusading until this gets in) - Because engaged players are stuck in one spot until someone wins, the spacing & timing of the game is waaaay off. Ball carriers have too much space to work with, so speed is that much more of a factor. And instead of addressing the issue, engaged player mobility, they add another band-aid... speed differential.

2. Realistic Footwork - Another major element ruining the spacing & timing. Players cover ground waaaay too quickly. Again, until this is addressed, speed will be a bigger factor than it should.

Check out this vid of Chris Johnson. Probably the fastest back in the league. But notice how even he has to deal with traffice on outside runs because engaged players can still flow towards the play. Good examples at :18, 1:26 & 3:02.

The 1st 2, he doesn't get the corner... ends up cutting inside of OLBs & DEs. That last one is a cutback where he actually gets outside of the BACKSIDE OLB while still between the hashes. You won't see this in madden until they implement engaged player mobility.

This vid also shows why Madden needs to address run fits, which would also help to keep those unaware, speed RBs in check.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YwBGyJWOZOc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Now compare that to this Hillis run in Madden... something I just grabbed from another post where I was trying to make the same point. We all see this happen on outside runs quite frequently. It's just not football. Only the fastest RBs take the corner like this, and it's rare for them as you can see in that Chris Johnson highlight vid.

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-5L5Nw6YnEo" allowfullscreen="" width="560" frameborder="0" height="345"></iframe>

[splff3000]

Re: Dallas Clark is faster than Reggie Wayne?

I think the biggest problem is that EA, with god amounts of cash still can't find a way to implement accurate scouting data into their ratings. I have Clark at 78 SPD (above average for a TE) and 85 ACC (near the top amongst all TE's). I have Wayne at 87 SPD (above average for a WR) and 89 ACC (among the best at WR) in my ratings.

http://www.fbgratings.com/members/profile.php?pyid=323

http://www.fbgratings.com/members/profile.php?pyid=1972

I like those ratings!!!

[bigbob]

Re: Dallas Clark is faster than Reggie Wayne?

Now compare that to this Hillis run in Madden... something I just grabbed from another post where I was trying to make the same point. We all see this happen on outside runs quite frequently. It's just not football. Only the fastest RBs take the corner like this, and it's rare for them as you can see in that Chris Johnson highlight vid.

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-5L5Nw6YnEo" allowfullscreen="" width="560" frameborder="0" height="345"></iframe>

I just want to point out in this video.. Hillis would not have been tackled on that play, even if it's unrealistic that he caught the corner that fast. The angle he had compared to the tackler, he would've brushed him off or thrown him to the ground with a stiff arm. NO, it's EA.. Peyton Hillis gets stopped dead in his tracks and taken backwards.

[dramachild11]

Re: Dallas Clark is faster than Reggie Wayne?

someone on the first page of this thread said the ratings are skewed cause the devs are trying to balance out the overall ratings and im forced to agree with this... there are far far too many WR's , RB's and CB's with mid 80's speed ( these are the fastest players in the league at ANY position)... i do believe that some players play above their 40 times (jerry rice and emmitt smith are two prime examples) but we all have to realize that the NFL is full of burners at the skill positions and theres no way that someone like clay matthews is as fast as say hakeem nicks

[TWOSILK]

Re: Dallas Clark is faster than Reggie Wayne?

Where did you come up with this? They have never said this lol.

I said that would be their arguement, not that it was actually said

[BezO]

Re: Dallas Clark is faster than Reggie Wayne?

I just want to point out in this video.. Hillis would not have been tackled on that play, even if it's unrealistic that he caught the corner that fast. The angle he had compared to the tackler, he would've brushed him off or thrown him to the ground with a stiff arm. NO, it's EA.. Peyton Hillis gets stopped dead in his tracks and taken backwards.

That's the debat in the thread I linked.

My point in that thread is EA has to allow for smaller DBs taking down bigger backs way more often than they should because of the lack of engaged player mobility I'm referring to.

And to clarify, I'm not referring to Hillis' speed or how fast he took the corner (And by corner, I'm referring to the defense's containment, not the CB). My concern is that because the engaged defenders are not allowed to flow towards the play, the "corner" is much further inside than it should be, giving Hillis waaay more room than he should have. Without the engaged player mobility, If EA made smaller DB / bigger RB collisions more realistic, there'd be too many big runs.

Compare the 2 vids and notice how Chris Johnson, one of the fastest backs in the NFL has traffic to content with on the outside. Even he doesn't break contain most of the time. In that vid, even though he's breaking big runs, he's cutting INSIDE of OLBs, DEs and I think on one occasion an interior d-lineman. There's not nearly as much room on the outside in the Johnson vid. This element is not in Madden, thus having to allow for better than should be tackling by DBs.

These issues are not face value. Folks are complaining about the speed of certain players in this thread. Folks are complaining about big RBs being tackled too easilty by smaller DBs in that other thread. My point is that it's not a case of EA not knowing how fast players are or their tackling ability. It's them "fixing" problems caused by missing football essentials like engaged player mobility, proper footwork and run fits.

They can't fix the speed ratings and DB tackling ability until the address the real issues.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Dallas Clark is faster than Reggie Wayne?

I like those ratings!!!

Thanks. 17000+ players rated that way on my site. Verifiable and scouting data only.

Here is the topic here at OS:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...ange-game.html

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Dallas Clark is faster than Reggie Wayne?

Per the OP's first post, I also take issue with Jermichael Finley being faster than Donald Driver. Even though DD is old, he is still not that slow. They have DD at 82 SPD and Finley at 86. That's insane.