Tiger Woods 13: Country Clubs Online Feature Details, Demo Date Announced

[Seymour Scagnetti]

Re: Tiger Woods 13: Country Clubs Online Feature Details, Demo Date Announced

I've bought every Tiger game in this gen of consoles, starting with Tiger 06 on the XBox 360. The only title in the series which I thought made an expected advancement over the previous year's title was in Tiger 10, when they introduced Precision Putting and Live Tournaments. They didn't take the improvements made there and take them to the level they could have in Tiger 11 and 12, IMO. Their vision just seems to be inexplicably limited.

Having read Fred Parrow's blog on Total Swing Control, I know the biggest complaint I've made in this entire generation has at least had an attempt made to address. The swing interface just didn't require enough touch and intuition. Fred says that the gamer feels "invested" in the shot this year in his blog. That will cure a lot of what ailes the game for me if it proves to be the case.

I really appreciate your weighing in on this Zinger... good stuff!

Onlooker I like you, you are a good poster, always respectful to others on here (even of they don;t deserve it sometimes) and an eternal optimist and the world can't have enough optimists.

I'll give you my long winded theories as to why the there is a lukewarm reception and why I feel the same way.

1. Sports gamers (and that includes many who aren't on the internet) really don't care about online that much. Although they've made alot of positive changes that's not gonna get people that excited. Many gamers know online is always broken one way or another and many simply view it as as add-on, not the main reason they buy the game. Gamers buy sports games mainly to play the franchise mode and there has been minimal improvement (if any) to the career mode. Things such as playoffs, comprehensive season stats, full customization with DLC, an attempt to make it feel like you're actually on the PGA tour by progressing through different tours (not the half assed attempt done last year), and a presentation overhaul has not been done. The game looks the same and people go by the looks. The PGA tour could be an amazing franchise mode if done properly and they could make much more organic and let you play beside other AI golfers and make you feel like you are in a tourney. People have been asking for stuff like that alot longer than online country clubs which is still just playing mainly against a stat sheet. And many gamers don't have enough online friends who play TW to take advantage of the new CC so it's not really that appealing to most and it's difficult to get people to play at the same time. Everyone has different schedules.

If they have made much needed changes to the career mode then it is simply bizarre they refuse to divulge it. They are cutting off thier nose to spite thier face. If they allow you to use DLC at your discretion then you better advertize that fact because if you don't and wait until it comes out then people will move on to the next game if they don;t pre-order this one. And to ask gamers to spend an extra $40 every year for DLC and not even allow the user to customize thier career mode with it is a big slap in the face.

2. The new swing is nice but most of it is just remapped buttons, there may be an improved tempo but tempo was a part of TW12's swing. And difficulty has never been a problem with this game on tour mode so while the new swing will feel more intuitive it hardly justifies a purchase for most gamers.

3. NOBODY cares about Legacy Mode. It's a waste of resources and the fact that they advertized the hell out of it makes one to believe they've done nothing to overhaul the stale career mode and wasted time on this instead.

Again it's a case of EA totally misreading the market and wasting thier energy on the wrong things that will get people excited (mainly Legacy mode) and ignoring the franchise mode which needed to be redone years ago and give a reason for gamers to buy the DLC. Yes you can get it free online but that takes some time and most want to buy and play it right away. People who play Madden play the franchise mode, yes they play online but online is always exploited so the main charm is the franchise mode. Why EA thinks the TW crowd is different is beyond me.

On the EA board I keep asking what is changing for franchise mode and the devs don;t even acknowledge in giving me a date on when they are revealing anything and also in respect to TW True Aim returning which many gamers would love. Go ahead and ignore the franchise gamer but guess what, I'm not pre-ordering (and many others like me I presume) because of the lack of cooperation (they've been cooperative with every other feature so it leads me to believe career mode is the same old, same old, what else am I supposed to think).

And if they want to suprise people and not reveal anything until the game comes out then that is just a bizarre marketing decision and will backfire. But I doubt any major changes were made that they wouldn't want to reveal beforehand. I hope I'm wrong but I doubt it.

[OnlookerDelay]

Re: Tiger Woods 13: Country Clubs Online Feature Details, Demo Date Announced

I think the game taking a step back last year hurt a little,

I hadn't really stopped to put everything in perspective, but ater reading your post, it dawned on me that Tiger 11's gameplay is superior to that of '12. There were some graphical aspects of Tiger '11 that I didn't like, but it did offer more realism. I quit playing it all together when Tiger 12 came out, but went back and played it last week for kicks. It does feel better in the saddle. Since I mostly play Live Tournaments, '12 is my only option now. The only Live Tournaments they offer now on '11 are Amateur.

[quote]I could never get tournament difficulty without the putting meter. I could never get the feel down.[/quote

It is tough for sure. I'm pretty good with it up to about 30'; once I get beyond that, I can easily misgauge the distance worse than I would in real life. Take me beyond 50' and it's a crap shoot! Tiger 10's meterless putting was by far the best. I think the reason it was scaled to an 80' maximum putt distance, whereas '11 and '12 are scaled to 120'. If you faced an 85' putt in TW 10, you were screwed unless you swallowed your pride and used a PW on the green.

I am interested in the new swing. I haven't watched many videos but will of course try the demo. It could really make a great game. I guess I'm just in wait and see mode.

Online country clubs could be good, however I don't have many friends who play TW.

It's going to take the demo to answer my questions about how the new swing mechanic actually feels, particularly in Tournament difficulty.

As for Online Country Clubs, if the gameplay is there, I think there will be plenty of active clubs looking to recruit members. There are already a few floating recruiting posts at the official forum. I think a lot of gamers are going to see if the game is worth playing before they commit to a club though.

[OnlookerDelay]

Re: Tiger Woods 13: Country Clubs Online Feature Details, Demo Date Announced

an eternal optimist and the world can't have enough optimists.

Thanks Seymour, but I realize that I'm often optimistic to a fault. It's much easier to be disappointed when one is falsely optimistic. I do think I've become more of a gaurded optimist over the last few years though, although I did get caught with my pants down badly by the Move implementation in Tiger 12. I learned from that experience to be a hardened skeptic about the Kinect integration in Tiger 13. Seriously, I give the Kinect about a 10% chance of working for me this year.

1. Sports gamers (and that includes many who aren't on the internet) really don't care about online that much.

I'm glad you went to the length you did to illustrate your point here. It made me see how non objective I am about the online component of Tiger games, especially since Tiger 10, when Live Tournaments came along. Ironically, I fit your mold in every team sports game. When I put myself in that frame of mind, I can see all of your points. For some reason when I play golf or race, I strongly prefer multiplayer online or competition against real players scores or laptimes.

The PGA tour could be an amazing franchise mode if done properly and they could make much more organic and let you play beside other AI golfers and make you feel like you are in a tourney. People have been asking for stuff like that alot longer than online country clubs which is still just playing mainly against a stat sheet.

I totally agree with you here... it blows my mind as to how many little things EA Sports missed in these areas that could take the career mode to a new level. I don't feel like I'm in a tournament when I'm playing Career mode in Tiger. The scores seem to be nothing more than a bell curve to me, primarily because that's what they are! You never see another player. I would settle for playing with an AI player who played out their rounds like a simultaneous mode player using shot tracers, although I would want them to be executed based on 'order of play', not the fire when ready mode seen in online multiplayer.

And many gamers don't have enough online friends who play TW to take advantage of the new CC so it's not really that appealing to most and it's difficult to get people to play at the same time. Everyone has different schedules.

As I told Kerosene31, I think this will take care of itself if the gameplay drives it. Clubs will be recruiting players and there will be clubs with different play philosophies. The way they're structured, you're not going to have to rely so much on having schedules that mesh. I haven't been in a club since 08 because I found it difficult to meet schedules. I work a rotating shift and wouldn't be able to meet the primetime schedule requirements a lot of them have because of my work schedule. I think Tiger 13's online country club will be a much better fit for me. I love playing live head-to-head play when I can, and now I've got an alternative way to compete to some level on days when I can't hook up with anyone.

If they have made much needed changes to the career mode then it is simply bizarre they refuse to divulge it.

Here's where I'm totally with you brother! All we know is they have made changes to career mode for '13. That doesn't do much to sell me... changes? It needs an overhaul! The fact that they're being so quiet about it and not making it a bullet under their "Features In Regulation" promotion on their official website tells me that it likely won't be much different than what we've had before I hope I'm wrong about this, but I seriously doubt it.

2. The new swing is nice but most of it is just remapped buttons, there may be an improved tempo but tempo was a part of TW12's swing. And difficulty has never been a problem with this game on tour mode so while the new swing will feel more intuitive it hardly justifies a purchase for most gamers.

I see this a good bit differently... the reaction I see from my golfing friends, who mostly aren't video gamers, when I expose to this game, year after year, is "this is a kids game', or 'this doesn't feel like golf, all I'm doing is flicking a stick'. Even in tournament difficulty, they see it as an arcade game because the swing interface doesn't make them feel like they're in control. I believe this new interface at least has a chance to change that lack of feeling. Two EA Sports Game Changers who are primarily tournament difficulty players have said more than once that you feel more "invested in the shot". I think TSC, on paper, has the *potential* to change the way my golfing friends react to the game, and therefore by extension, lots of others.

3. NOBODY cares about Legacy Mode. It's a waste of resources and the fact that they advertized the hell out of it makes one to believe they've done nothing to overhaul the stale career mode and wasted time on this instead

.

I agree... this seems like a waste of effort. I can't imagine how many more people might buy this game because of the Legacy mode, but I'd be willing to bet it won't be worth the return on investment, if they recoup it at all.

On the EA board I keep asking what is changing for franchise mode and the devs don;t even acknowledge in giving me a date on when they are revealing anything and also in respect to TW True Aim returning which many gamers would love. Go ahead and ignore the franchise gamer but guess what, I'm not pre-ordering (and many others like me I presume) because of the lack of cooperation (they've been cooperative with every other feature so it leads me to believe career mode is the same old, same old, what else am I supposed to think).

I feel your pain here. I was shocked to see Mike DeVaults response to my question about playing Custom Live Tournaments in multiplayer groups in the Online Country Clubs thread at the official forum. At first he didn't understand my question, which I worded carefully enough to convey that I wanted to be able to play Live Tournaments in groups of 2 to 4. He came back and said everyone in the club could play in Live Tournaments, it wasn't limited!? I went to another layer of explanation and he finally responded with an 'oh, I got you now'... that's something we'll have to look into adding (along with his realization of what I meant by a real time, hole-by-hole updating leaderboard in Live Tournaments) in the future.... Huh?? I and others have been harping on this since Tiger 10's release!

I have a hard time believing that the dev team didn't have the vision to see that multiplayer Live Tournament play with real time, hole-by-hole leaderboards should not be in the mix on their own, but when the community continues to mention it year-after-year, in wishlists on their official website and they don't either see it or acknowledge it is a total mystery to me!

[tsp120]

Re: Tiger Woods 13: Country Clubs Online Feature Details, Demo Date Announced

All I want out of a golf game is a career mode simulation. Unfortunately, this series is so far from that I have no hope of ever seeing it from EA.

What I'd like to see out of a golf game is the ability to play season after season after season with a created golfer, or as one of the licensed golfers in the game.

I don't want to spend "points" that I earned after each round to upgrade my golfer. I'd rather just see my golfer naturally progress (or digress), much like player ratings do in team-based games like Madden, NHL, FIFA, etc. It's silly to me that I can make my player hit the ball further because in the previous round I was bogey free or birdied all par 5's. I want simulation, not arcade.

I'd like to see playoffs in career mode. I'd like to play with other golfers...and especially I'd like the ability to turn other golfers on and off as I please. For instance, on Thursday and Friday of a tournament I won't play with another golfer, but on Saturday and Sunday I'll turn them on if I'm near the top of the leaderboard. And I'm ok playing against generic looking players if they are not one of the licensed players of the game.

And on Sundays, I'd prefer if greens didn't have pin placements on the side of cliffs.

[kickingguru]

Re: Tiger Woods 13: Country Clubs Online Feature Details, Demo Date Announced

Interestingly enough.. The Online Country Club actually is for everybody including people who do not want to play online. Everything you do in the game, career, legacy, ect.. will earn the club status points and net you more coins. It also may allow people who have been turned off by the ultra low scores a chance to compete online against gamers of their similar skill level. It could lure many back to playing online again.

The swing mechanic change "MAY" also eliminate all of the so called Cheat Sticks usefullness. No button mashing for power eliminates the need for Rapid Fire. You can still spin the ball in some modes, but you do not need Rapid Fire to do that. The y axis disabled controllers should be eliminated as well with the draw and fade mechanics needing diagonal capabilities. A few people have mentioned too that many of the sticks will have a hard time getting the tempo right as well. Higher level... caddies will not line you up either, so you will have to execute the shot and setup vs. just having it handed to you.

These two things excite me the most about the game. To the point of the question however, even my attitude is one of wait and see as EA's track record has been less than stellar and that is putting it mildly. It may however become one of the greatest online sports experiences ever. The potential is there for that too....

[kickingguru]

Re: Tiger Woods 13: Country Clubs Online Feature Details, Demo Date Announced

Also, to touch on the Career Mode failings vs Online Play failings... I believe the Online issues has been the major cause of the decline of the game. The gaming world has shifted towards competing online and away from playing by yourself.

People were turned off by seeing -30 posted and did not understand how it was done. They assumed cheating and moved on. Tiger in the last few years has been a game of purchasing the right controller vs. actual skill. If you can hit the ball str8 every time and have full power when you needed it, the game was very easy. When a person would play with their standard controller, keeping it in the fairway was difficult, much less trying to hole out 5 times in a round to keep pace. Add to that the connection issues that have plagued the game for years and you will see a decline....

In terms of Career, I want to yell out in my best Shooter McGavin voice.... "Damn you people.... This is Golf!!!!" I mean, Golf has to be the most simple of games to develop... Things happen in sequence, vs other sports games that needs to have everything occur at once. The lack of attention paid to playing the game like the sport is played is just outright maddening. It has always been an issue and has also led to the decline of the game. I do however believe that is now second to the Online issues.

Issues that will Kill Tiger 13:

- Connection issues at launch and 1st month
- The ultra low scoring that seems unreachable for the casual user
- Menu system that is difficult to understand (seriously, EA needs a department for the as their menus in games are just atrocious)
- Glitches in game (Freezes, dropped stats, ect...)

If any of these are the case, then Tiger 13 will not fare very well.....

[DivotMaker]

Re: Tiger Woods 13: Country Clubs Online Feature Details, Demo Date Announced

I am currently in Orlando on business and EA was kind enough to let me come out and see the game today. I had a very short time with the game, but here are some of my impressions:

The game is drop-dead gorgeous. The lighting and textures were amazing along with the dynamic weather. The trees animated beautifulloy and VERY realistically. I played 18 holes on PGA National on Tournament difficulty (sorry about that AM users).

The new swing mechanic is all it is cracked up to be and I can tell you that scoring will be challenging on Tournament mode, especially with the strike meter needing to be manipulated during the swing. I had several shots from the rough that I must have taken a yard of turf with me when I hit the shot as they only went about 25% of the distance they should have. Shot a +10 for 18 holes.

The swing was great and after playing a couple of holes with the meter on, I turned it off and the swing felt even more intuitive, especially while putting. There are 5-6 new cameras at address which should help when playing in the trees.

JCauthen....yes, TrueAim is back for TW13 and as far as I could tell, it was just like TW11. Did not have alot of time to compare with 11, but it felt so right. Another goodie.....1st Person perspective is in for Kinect. More on that later.

Played a few holes using Kinect and it felt pretty good, but the Kinect I was using was not calibrated properly, so there were some issues with it that I have been assured are not in the final build. The 5-6 shots I did hit (using Tournament mode) felt great and I was all over the course, but my swing caused this from what I could tell. I hit one helluva recovery shot from the pine straw in the woods at Augusta #2 the par 5 and actually made par.

Saw a few minutes of Tiger Legacy mode and it really is there to try to draw new users into the game and they have some cook features with it that can extend to the rest of the game (more on that later once the NDA is lifted).

Spent some time with Christian Brandt (TW Dev) seeing the Online Country Club interface and it is going to blow many online users away with the depth of this feature. OMG, the stats....wow! Also got to see the AN Practice Facility and after playing the game I can tell you this is where I am going to be spending a great deal of my time learning how to hit the ball in Tournament mode with Kinect and with the wireless controller.

Unfortunately I did not have time to explore Career Mode so I am not sure exactly what to expect with that, but EA has done some tuning and updating to make the CM play more like a PGA TOUR career with the course assets and other things. Still not sure if you can move courses around in the schedule though.

My overall impression (taking the short time I had playing the game into prespective) is very positive and they have spent a great deal of time bringing new features that the community has asked for. They are listening and will be listening intently to the feedback for TW13. Can't wait to see the demo and spend some time with Kinect and the 1st person view. Not sure how many questions I can answer, but I will do my best. They also have a surprise up their sleeve that I think many here will enjoy and appreciate, but I am under strict orders not to discuss it here.

Best Regards,

Tim

[OnlookerDelay]

Re: Tiger Woods 13: Country Clubs Online Feature Details, Demo Date Announced

I'd like to see playoffs in career mode. I'd like to play with other golfers...and especially I'd like the ability to turn other golfers on and off as I please. For instance, on Thursday and Friday of a tournament I won't play with another golfer, but on Saturday and Sunday I'll turn them on if I'm near the top of the leaderboard. And I'm ok playing against generic looking players if they are not one of the licensed players of the game.

And on Sundays, I'd prefer if greens didn't have pin placements on the side of cliffs.

You and I want the same thing out of career mode. I don't know why they can't incorporate CPU players into career mode play? It would really go a long way toward giving me a hook that I can grasp. The absence of a playoff is a major letdown... it's totally anticlimactic!?

[OnlookerDelay]

Re: Tiger Woods 13: Country Clubs Online Feature Details, Demo Date Announced

Interestingly enough.. The Online Country Club actually is for everybody including people who do not want to play online. Everything you do in the game, career, legacy, ect.. will earn the club status points and net you more coins. It also may allow people who have been turned off by the ultra low scores a chance to compete online against gamers of their similar skill level. It could lure many back to playing online again.

The swing mechanic change "MAY" also eliminate all of the so called Cheat Sticks usefullness. No button mashing for power eliminates the need for Rapid Fire. You can still spin the ball in some modes, but you do not need Rapid Fire to do that. The y axis disabled controllers should be eliminated as well with the draw and fade mechanics needing diagonal capabilities. A few people have mentioned too that many of the sticks will have a hard time getting the tempo right as well. Higher level... caddies will not line you up either, so you will have to execute the shot and setup vs. just having it handed to you.

These two things excite me the most about the game. To the point of the question however, even my attitude is one of wait and see as EA's track record has been less than stellar and that is putting it mildly. It may however become one of the greatest online sports experiences ever. The potential is there for that too....

I hope your theory as to why aftermarket controllers might lose their advantage proves to be true Guru. They may even prove to be a detriment in Tournament difficulty, if they have to have sensitivity for both tempo and swing plane altering shot shaping.

Your assessment of Online Country Clubs also seems to hit the mark. I believe it will make those who can't always hook up for multiplayer play feel like they are contributing members in their clubs. I know I can't always manage multiplayer play due to my work schedule. On work days I have a 45 minute window to play online. The OCC structure will allow what I do on those days to matter to some degree.

[OnlookerDelay]

Re: Tiger Woods 13: Country Clubs Online Feature Details, Demo Date Announced

Divot, I read your impressions of the game based on your visit to Tiburon today in the official Tiger Woods forum and posted my questions and comments there. I want to say here again that your report is the best news I've heard to date on the prospects for this game.

I wasn't expecting you to be as impressed with the Kinect interface as you apparently were, so my prospects for it are raised a notch as a result. Do you think you would have done better with a club in your hand as you were "swinging" in front of the Kinect?

Thanks again for this report; other than Fred Parrow's blog about Total Shot Control, it's the only thing we Tournament difficulty players have to hang our hats on!

[Zinger]

Re: Tiger Woods 13: Country Clubs Online Feature Details, Demo Date Announced

Divot, I read your impressions of the game based on your visit to Tiburon today in the official Tiger Woods forum and posted my questions and comments there. I want to say here again that your report is the best news I've heard to date on the prospects for this game.

I agree. He seemed pretty sure that True Aim is back in the game - great news! - but it makes me scratch my head as to why in that case the devs couldn't have just told us so when we have asked about it so many times recently. Why risk alienating paying customers by concealing the fact?? I don't get it.

[Seymour Scagnetti]

Re: Tiger Woods 13: Country Clubs Online Feature Details, Demo Date Announced

So Divot you're saying that TW true aim is back in that there is no aiming marker that pinpoints where your shot goes and that that your clubs are measured by the carrying distance and there are yardage markers around various parts of the green and fairways that allow you to gauge distance that way because those 2 are the most important factors in what made the TW 11 true aim so enjoyable.

Also can we get some feedback about chipping. If you played 18 holes then I assume you had a few chips. Are they actually improved with the feel and look that a real chip would have rather than the poor implementation that we are used to with prior games. Thanx in advance.

[huntt26]

Re: Tiger Woods 13: Country Clubs Online Feature Details, Demo Date Announced

Does anyone know if we'll get to try out the Kinect controls in the demo? I haven't seen anything announced either way

[kerosene31]

Re: Tiger Woods 13: Country Clubs Online Feature Details, Demo Date Announced

"True" true-aim back in the game exactly the same as it was from TW11 would make me 100 times more excited about the game. That was the most realistic aiming method I've seen in a game.

[DivotMaker]

Re: Tiger Woods 13: Country Clubs Online Feature Details, Demo Date Announced

Does anyone know if we'll get to try out the Kinect controls in the demo? I haven't seen anything announced either way

Yes, you will be able to try out the Kinect functionality in the demo.