EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

[LBzrule]

Re: EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

That would be good. I still think there is much work to be done to get their line play to look and behave realistically in this space, but that would certainly be a massive improvement. I was playing APF yesterday and I was paying specific attention to this area. I've got JPP as a gold and Tuck as a silver, both being pass rushing studs in the game. When computer http://www.operationsports.com/LBzrule/card/controlled, they would dip their shoulders and rush upfield, while engaged with the tackle, they would try various moves to get free. Many times simply being pushed BEHIND the QB, just like in real life. On an inside move I saw JPP do a rip move then a sping in attempting to get there and he was literally pushed out of the play completely while Romo stepped up in the pocket and delivered a pass. This is what I want to see in this game. Make my elite defensive lineman matter in this game and force the QB to step up in the pocket. Allow my elite pass rushers to matter, and allow me to play with the Giants like they are in real life. Relying on that front 4 to get pressure instead of blitzing every single play.

Ohhh indeed. Make no mistake about it they have a great deal of work to do to address OL vs DL. But like we have discussed, I'm just trying to come up with something with the front four rush this year to make the game "worth it"; to get people to play defense differently and not always have to rely on blitzing, tricking the OL, or always getting a free runner because the tackles decide to block the second level player. I like their modification to slide protection. They can add options to that later, but at least they did something with it. That right there is going to help my offense alot.

One of the first things I do every football game I get is start with the basics. I go through to see what I'm going to need to do. When I get the game this year, the first thing I'm going to look at is the basic pass rush and how the DE's rush the passer. If I have to hot blitz them ect., Then the first thing I would like to do on offense is work on protection. The last upmteen Madden's I have not worked on protection because I did not like the logic of slide protection. With the way it is now, I will work on that. I always start up front and if the game just gives me a little bit I can take it from there until they give me a lot. But if they don't give me a little bit, I'm not going to feel like playing, which is why I ditched Madden 12 back in February, but was already fed up with the game in Nov/December. We'll see. I wonder when they will release some new videos.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

Let me ask you this LBz since you have been directly involved with Madden devs. Considering you believe and I agree, that most of the pieces needed to make pass rush more realistic in Madden, ie better, are already available, is there some EA/Tiburon "fun" standard, as I call it, likely preventing a change like this?

If realism is still beholden to "fun", ie intentionally limiting the realistic challenge or risk/reward when deemed necessary, in Madden, that is essentially a cap on how much "football" improvement that should be expected.

[ch46647]

Re: EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

Ohhh indeed. Make no mistake about it they have a great deal of work to do to address OL vs DL. But like we have discussed, I'm just trying to come up with something with the front four rush this year to make the game "worth it"; to get people to play defense differently and not always have to rely on blitzing, tricking the OL, or always getting a free runner because the tackles decide to block the second level player. I like their modification to slide protection. They can add options to that later, but at least they did something with it. That right there is going to help my offense alot.

One of the first things I do every football game I get is start with the basics. I go through to see what I'm going to need to do. When I get the game this year, the first thing I'm going to look at is the basic pass rush and how the DE's rush the passer. If I have to hot blitz them ect., Then the first thing I would like to do on offense is work on protection. The last upmteen Madden's I have not worked on protection because I did not like the logic of slide protection. With the way it is now, I will work on that. I always start up front and if the game just gives me a little bit I can take it from there until they give me a lot. But if they don't give me a little bit, I'm not going to feel like playing, which is why I ditched Madden 12 back in February, but was already fed up with the game in Nov/December. We'll see. I wonder when they will release some new videos.

What was the modification to slide protection? What are the benefits?

Thanks!

[LBzrule]

Re: EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

Let me ask you this LBz since you have been directly involved with Madden devs. Considering you believe and I agree, that most of the pieces needed to make pass rush more realistic in Madden, ie better, are already available, is there some EA/Tiburon "fun" standard, as I call it, likely preventing a change like this?

Big let me clarify. I do not believe the pieces to make it more realistic are in the game. What I do believe is they have animation scripts that look pretty good and make the pass rush from the DE's look good if they speed up the animations. The foundation for solid OL vs DL is not under the hood. I need to clarify that because another poster seemed to think that's what I was getting at and I was not. All I'm getting at is since they have a pretty good looking animation script that gets the DE's to push and drive their legs, why not have that happen a lot more. It will make Madden 13's front four pass rush better and people can rely on the talent they have up front and not blitz all the time to get pressure.

If realism is still beholden to "fun", ie intentionally limiting the realistic challenge or risk/reward when deemed necessary, in Madden, that is essentially a cap on how much "football" improvement that should be expected.

To me the fact that the animation script even exists is an indication that they want the game to have that type of realistic push by the DE's against the OT's. What I'm not sure of is how much they want it to happen. Given your DE's are not going to perform any moves, I think it is a good compromise for it to happen on five step, seven step, PA plays. On three step drops, the pass should be out quick so I'm not sure it should happen there. Now that WR icons must show up before making a pass I think they have a foundation in place to where this should be occurring.


Going back through some videos now I do see it at times. It occurred at 1:20 in the following video, only thing I don't like is they bounce first. Why not just engage dip shoulder and drive feet? Why do we need the bounce all the time?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/nZQyO0O2Y_I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It also happens in this next one at 6:40
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Z1rPIcsPwJQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

They just bounce first which slows things down. If they could eliminate the bounce that would help.

[ch46647]

Re: EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

If we could manually make this trigger every time we select the "pass" pre-play option I would be a happy camper.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

If we could manually make this trigger every time we select the "pass" pre-play option I would be a happy camper.

It's not that simple though, because what really needs to happen is that they need to make the particular pass rusher a factor in how well this plays out. I don't want some scrub defensive end with good speed being able to wreak havoc the same way Jason Pierre-Paul can. However, the common ground is the technique used and how the lineman engage with the tackle.

[LBzrule]

Re: EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

What was the modification to slide protection? What are the benefits?

Thanks!

It is more of a man zone style adjustment you can call now. The back side Tackle will block man to man. This way nobody can slip into the back side untouched. This makes it easy to shore up that B gap with the HB stepping up to block. Also if you come out in a formation with a TE on the line and you slide away from the TE but keep the TE in to block you have two back side players in Man blocking with the rest of the line sliding the other way. I'm going to do some strategy videos on it down the line.

[JerzeyReign]

Re: EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

It is more of a man zone style adjustment you can call now. The back side Tackle will block man to man. This way nobody can slip into the back side untouched. This makes it easy to shore up that B gap with the HB stepping up to block. Also if you come out in a formation with a TE on the line and you slide away from the TE but keep the TE in to block you have two back side players in Man blocking with the rest of the line sliding the other way. I'm going to do some strategy videos on it down the line.

The coach in me wants to tell you whats wrong with that blocking scheme but I'll wait for the videos. I have to see it to understand it at this point.

[LBzrule]

Re: EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

The coach in me wants to tell you whats wrong with that blocking scheme but I'll wait for the videos. I have to see it to understand it at this point.

Ohhh I know there are some things wrong with it but I think it is a better option than what we had previously. Are you familiar with Charlie Stubb's Developing an Explosive Offense? It somewhat mimics one aspect of protection broken down there. I'll take that over what we had previously.

[RandyBass]

Re: EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

For what it's worth, here are the NFL sack leaders from last year:

2011 NFL Sack Leaders

Notice the highest total for a DT is 7.5, done by both Gino Atkins of the Bengals and Tommy Kelly of Oakland. That tied them for 33rd in the league in that category.

Let me say that again, that tied them for 33rd in the league.

In fact go back over the last five years and there's only been a handful of DTs who totaled more than that: Tommie Harris and Darnell Dockett in 2007, Albert Haynesworth and Kevin Williams in 2008, and Ndamukong Suh in 2010, with Suh being the only guy with 10 or more (he had 10).

I bring this up because it's not just the presence of an outside rush that needs some consideration, but also the results on the stat sheet. Hopefully any tweaks they make will create a better balance in terms of numbers too.

[Senator Palmer]

Re: EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

Part of me wonders though is this a specific type of pass rusher that is causing this animation script with the offensive tackles. Kruger and Upshaw have pretty high power move ratings. Suggs does too, although he's not in these videos. I wonder if those LSU DE's are more power move guys? I'm not sure though because I get it with the USC DE's on occasion along with the Oregon guys as well. I need to play as KState and see. What I can say is the OLB's just based on playing with Bama, their rush angles out of 3-4 Odd result in a lot of bouncing with the offensive tackle. I

I ran with Alabama the other day just to get a look at the edge rush of the backers in passing situations. Every passing down I got into a Nickel 2-4-5, pass commit, base rush. The pressure was virtually non-existent. I can remember one play where I saw the OLB engage and work up field. Now I don't know if that's due to there being no Courtney Upshaw on the field or if there is something going on with the 3-4, because as I've always noticed, the pass commit, which relies on jumping the snap, only seems to function with down linemen and not backers. I'm going to try again later and put the backers on the line in the Dime and see if I get anything different.

Conversely, I've been killing it with LSU and USC -- LSU especially. I generate 4-5 sacks a game.



And this whole thread had me thinking back to this one started by Ian three years ago where he was working on tweaking the pass rush before Madden 10 dropped:http://www.operationsports.com/forum...pass-rush.html

Has anyone from EA even acknowledged this as an issue since then?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/AiH1cl3ELCw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

As you can see in the vid, it's still wins and losses and "effectiveness" seems to be defined not by pressure per se, but by how fast the defensive linemen got free. Interesting thing I saw was how the edge rushers were more apt to look for an inside move, however. At the 30 sec mark, it looks like Suggs goes for a pretty nice swim move. I'm wondering what factor playart played in that. I do remember that Madden 10 and 11 had more defensive plays where the edge rushers had inside tracks like the old Buzz Duo play.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

For what it's worth, here are the NFL sack leaders from last year:

2011 NFL Sack Leaders

Notice the highest total for a DT is 7.5, done by both Gino Atkins of the Bengals and Tommy Kelly of Oakland. That tied them for 33rd in the league in that category.

Let me say that again, that tied them for 33rd in the league.

In fact go back over the last five years and there's only been a handful of DTs who totaled more than that: Tommie Harris and Darnell Dockett in 2007, Albert Haynesworth and Kevin Williams in 2008, and Ndamukong Suh in 2010, with Suh being the only guy with 10 or more (he had 10).

I bring this up because it's not just the presence of an outside rush that needs some consideration, but also the results on the stat sheet. Hopefully any tweaks they make will create a better balance in terms of numbers too.

Can't like this post enough. The one thing we could not fix in our league was the effectiveness of defensive tackles. That silly shrug off animation that DTs do to guards and centers was infuriating. We had Kevin Williams, Brandon Mebane, Casey Hampton and others getting 24 sacks a season. IT was awful. Meanwhile, DEs would get maybe 8-10. It's not just sacks, but it's how they get them. There is no battle at the line and there is simply a quick win/loss. It looks extremely dated and has clearly not been addressed properly over the last decade. If Madden could surpass the realism that APF has instilled in its lineplay and they really spent the time in getting the assignments right with realism in mind, this would go a long way in winning back my faith in this series. Realism in the trenches combined with enhancement to the physics would do SO much for this game, it's not even funny.

[LBzrule]

Re: EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

Senator. I'm glad you referenced that thread. That thread is the reason why I started this one. Unless there is a big community response it will go untouched and on the shelf.

[SteelerSpartan]

Re: EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

Can't like this post enough. The one thing we could not fix in our league was the effectiveness of defensive tackles. That silly shrug off animation that DTs do to guards and centers was infuriating. We had Kevin Williams, Brandon Mebane, Casey Hampton and others getting 24 sacks a season. IT was awful. Meanwhile, DEs would get maybe 8-10. It's not just sacks, but it's how they get them. There is no battle at the line and there is simply a quick win/loss. It looks extremely dated and has clearly not been addressed properly over the last decade. If Madden could surpass the realism that APF has instilled in its lineplay and they really spent the time in getting the assignments right with realism in mind, this would go a long way in winning back my faith in this series. Realism in the trenches combined with enhancement to the physics would do SO much for this game, it's not even funny.

What Pisses me off the most about the Super Human DT play is that you can't even get around them with sliders.....You can't make the DEs/OLBs more potent without making the DTs Godly

[briz1744]

Re: EA Sports Sim Community Demand Quick Fix - Madden NFL 13 DE Pass Rush

For what it's worth, here are the NFL sack leaders from last year:

2011 NFL Sack Leaders

Notice the highest total for a DT is 7.5, done by both Gino Atkins of the Bengals and Tommy Kelly of Oakland. That tied them for 33rd in the league in that category.

Let me say that again, that tied them for 33rd in the league.

In fact go back over the last five years and there's only been a handful of DTs who totaled more than that: Tommie Harris and Darnell Dockett in 2007, Albert Haynesworth and Kevin Williams in 2008, and Ndamukong Suh in 2010, with Suh being the only guy with 10 or more (he had 10).

I bring this up because it's not just the presence of an outside rush that needs some consideration, but also the results on the stat sheet. Hopefully any tweaks they make will create a better balance in terms of numbers too.

IMO this is caused more by the flawed rating system than issues with animations, the the OVR is calculated varies by position and generally values seed over strength etc making it harder for DTs to achieve high OVR
Thus Donny Moore artificially increases individual attribute ratings on DTs like BSH and PMV to bring the OVRs at this position in line with other positions
Combine this with underrating most OCs in many strength catergories and the onterior rush overpowers the OLs far too easily once the game is tuned to give any outside rush at all and unbalances the lineplay