Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

[LBzrule]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

I agree that it would be nice to have certain defenders move pre-snap to try to time up the blitz. I do also think that you should have the option to show an all-out blitz similar to the one that is currently implemented, but not aligning defenders in completely unsound positions when their specific assignments conflict with the show blitz option.

All in all, the pass protection logic is very screwed up and has been for quite some time (I really can't remember a time when it wasn't). Most of the time, 5 man pressures should be able to be blocked by 6 man protections (your video showed only 5 man pro's), overloads or not, but not by sliding the un-rushed tackle across the formation. Those OL should all move together towards the outside rusher.

On a side note, I really hope that the NCAA demo is not too much of a prognosticator for what Madden is going to be (NCAA too, for that matter). I played about 3 quarters of one game before I had seen all I could handle. When I was on offense, I could pretty much shred the defense just running 4 vert variations with no hot-routing/assignment changes. Two consecutive plays when I was on defense broke the camels back: the AI QB through a ball into double coverage down the sideline, my safety (AI controlled) took a path that would have been good if the ball would have literally been overthrown by 30 yards. Then the CPU ran an option play in which the pitch man came to a complete stop and then reversed his field on the pitch, losing about 10 yards. There's no place for things like this...

shtty, my fear is A.I wise Madden is going to be very similar. The thing that will be different is physics. That's not a small difference I don't think. Just going off of what I read on some updates with guys at Tiburon now, I see how those outside runs in many of the videos happen. One of them reported that you cannot attack the gaps per usual with linebackers because with the physics, guys can trip and fall. I'm wondering if all the outside runs in the E3 videos were due to the OLB tripping and falling due to physics. I'm not sure.

On the five man pressures vs six blockers well the sad news from the NCAA demo is that the last set up for the 3 Overload Fire I showed, namely the outlawed version because of the Spy, with that one you can have seven man protection and the linebacker can still come up the middle untouched This is why I said a while back if they do not catch this stuff online for NCAA is going to be very BAD.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

Big to the second point, the "stone walled" animation, I think that's where that bounce could come in. Rather than the bounce serving as the means to initial contact, that could be the transition to the secondary pass rush move.

With the timed blitzes, that's why I advocated show blitz the way I did. Rather than the timing strictly be A.I controlled, it comes under user control. I tell them when to move.

I think that's where I disagree because I don't like the idea of the User being able to dictate control of CPU defenders on the field, just their responsibilities when on playcalling/sideline. Timing is an inherent risk/reward to blitzing, imo, so the only defender's timing I feel the User should have control over is one being manually controlled.

[LBzrule]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

I think that's where I disagree because I don't like the idea of the User being able to dictate control of CPU defenders on the field, just their responsibilities when on playcalling/sideline. Timing is an inherent risk/reward to blitzing, imo, so the only defender's timing I feel the User should have control over is one being manually controlled.

I can agree with that. Here is why I hesitate to though. My concern is other than play clock what would tip your A.I defenders off to move/time the blitz? I'm thinking in terms for two player head to head games. Would you opt for offensive play button sensitivity? What's going tip them off to move other than the play clock. Otherwise the movement isn't going to sync up. It'll be just like it is now IMO. Let's say we are playing each other and your offense is at the line with 20 seconds left on the play clock. You've made the adjustments you want to make we got 20 secs left on the play clock. What triggers my A.I players to move. What if you just want to wait for ten seconds? The A.I doesn't know when to time it. I think I would do a better job of guessing.

If we go back to the real life clips for a moment there are a few keys:

1) Play Clock
2) Motion
3) Cadence/Snap Count

Hidden variables we cannot see:
Reading eyes.

Also there are some "auto-motion" blitzes in the game now that are supposed to mimic what is being advocated here. They don't time up very well at all. So we gotta have some keys or something to get the AI defenders to tee off if we want to just leave it in the hands of the A.I. else it will be severely mistimed. We can look at several plays from the Packers Nickel Psycho or even 2-4-5 Corner Fire 2 Roll



When you call this play the CB's show it way to quickly resulting in their movement coming to a complete halt prior to the ball being snapped. Ideally you want these guys on the run because they are blitzing from wide space. They need to be on the run or else they will never get there in time.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

I can agree with that. Here is why I hesitate to though. My concern is other than play clock what would tip your A.I defenders off to move/time the blitz? I'm thinking in terms for two player head to head games. Would you opt for offensive play button sensitivity? What's going tip them off to move other than the play clock. Otherwise the movement isn't going to sync up. It'll be just like it is now IMO. Let's say we are playing each other and your offense is at the line with 20 seconds left on the play clock. You've made the adjustments you want to make we got 20 secs left on the play clock. What triggers my A.I players to move. What if you just want to wait for ten seconds? The A.I doesn't know when to time it. I think I would do a better job of guessing.

Well here we go down this fundamental football rabbit hole but what the heck, lol. I started to mention this in an earlier reply but decided not to, maybe they need to add snap counts. Right now, we can snap the ball whenever, another ad lib that probably should not be there. So at least adding predetermined snap counts as another selection step necessary in the playcall screen/sideline, might allow for actually timing on blitzes. Or just have the snap count automated with an option to change it up if we want to but the point being to have a set number of snap count combinations to choose from. Then, going back to the premise of the "smart" weapon from M08, defenders have varying capabilities of timing the snaps based on AWR and PRC.

What do you think? lol

[LBzrule]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

Well here we go down this fundamental football rabbit hole but what the heck, lol. I started to mention this in an earlier reply but decided not to, maybe they need to add snap counts. Right now, we can snap the ball whenever, another ad lib that probably should not be there. So at least adding predetermined snap counts as another selection step necessary in the playcall screen/sideline, might allow for actually timing on blitzes. Or just have the snap count automated with an option to change it up if we want to but the point being to have a set number of snap count combinations to choose from. Then, going back to the premise of the "smart" weapon from M08, defenders have varying capabilities of timing the snaps based on AWR and PRC.

What do you think? lol

About the snap counts. I can already hear it. "They are taking away too much user control." Secondly, because snap the football has worked virtually the same in every football game ever made, I think, the idea would be fighting a losing battle.

When you say "varying capabilities of timing the snaps based on AWR and PRC," why is that included here? Other than guys that jump off sides, blitzes have been walked through and it doesn't take a smart guy to figure out what he needs to do. Now the AWR and PRC I think would be good for a guy that once he realizes it is not pass, he can switch and press the gaps in the run game, but for mere timing outside of jumping off sides, not sure why they would be needed.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

About the snap counts. I can already hear it. "They are taking away too much user control." Secondly, because snap the football has worked virtually the same in every football game ever made, I think, the idea would be fighting a losing battle.

When you say "varying capabilities of timing the snaps based on AWR and PRC," why is that included here? Other than guys that jump off sides, blitzes have been walked through and it doesn't take a smart guy to figure out what he needs to do. Now the AWR and PRC I think would be good for a guy that once he realizes it is not pass, he can switch and press the gaps in the run game, but for mere timing outside of jumping off sides, not sure why they would be needed.

You are probably right about the losing battle and in that quote, I was referring to keying in on the snap count, allowing certain players, to get a jump on the snap if the offenses in Madden didn't change it up.

I really can't think of how timed blitzes can be reasonably represented realistically as long as the User can snap the ball whenever. Is there something I am missing though?

[LBzrule]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

You are probably right about the losing battle and in that quote, I was referring to keying in on the snap count, allowing certain players, to get a jump on the snap if the offenses in Madden didn't change it up.

I really can't think of how timed blitzes can be reasonably represented realistically as long as the User can snap the ball whenever. Is there something I am missing though?

Big, that's why I advocated the user on defense being able to do it. But should be limited to one time. If it is shown to early, reset the play and do it again, that way it can't be used like shake blitz. As a user on defense I can pick up on motion, play clock, what the person likes to do out of each formation ect.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

Big, that's why I advocated the user on defense being able to do it. But should be limited to one time. If it is shown to early, reset the play and do it again, that way it can't be used like shake blitz. As a user on defense I can pick up on motion, play clock, what the person likes to do out of each formation ect.

I think I get what you are suggesting but I keep picturing it as every blitzer being synchronized headed towards the LOS, if that makes sense. It seems to be in that ilk of what I mention before about things happening far too uniform.

What about if it was a User mechanic, like you suggest but each defender approached/attacked the LOS differently paced? That way, depending on the number of blitzers, some would inherently have better timing then others and the User mechanic is more ranged control then direct pinpoint control. Something to avoid every blitzer hitting the LOS at the same time, making it playout more organic.

[hay99077]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

You are probably right about the losing battle and in that quote, I was referring to keying in on the snap count, allowing certain players, to get a jump on the snap if the offenses in Madden didn't change it up.

I really can't think of how timed blitzes can be reasonably represented realistically as long as the User can snap the ball whenever. Is there something I am missing though?

Great thread guys...

This quote harps on the necessity of the "get-off". Anyone who has ever played defense on a real football team knows the value of the explosion off the line. That's gotta be step one. I think someone mentioned that earlier but I think if guys actually exploded off the ball realistically based on their ACC rating, then things like snap counts and timed blitzes could be vital in increasing an accurate portrayal of specific aspects this part of the game. But the game has to crawl (add some explosion off the ball) before it can walk...

[LBzrule]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

I think I get what you are suggesting but I keep picturing it as every blitzer being synchronized headed towards the LOS, if that makes sense. It seems to be in that ilk of what I mention before about things happening far too uniform.

What about if it was a User mechanic, like you suggest but each defender approached/attacked the LOS differently paced? That way, depending on the number of blitzers, some would inherently have better timing then others and the User mechanic is more ranged control then direct pinpoint control. Something to avoid every blitzer hitting the LOS at the same time, making it playout more organic.

Big let me see if I can explain it using an example. Let's just use Nickel 2-4-5 Buck Slant 3



On this one there are five rushers, two of which we might label "blitzers" the WILB and the NB. Let's say the offense is in a single back slot formation like so:



Just taking these two plays and matching them against one another we would have the match up we are looking for.

.................................................W ILB.......SILB..............SS.................... .....

.........CB.............NB...........OLB......DE.. ......DE........OLB.............................CB
..........................WR............OT.......G .....C.....G......OT...TE........................W R
.........WR

Alignment might be off a little bit but you get the picture. When you are on offense it looks like this is straight man to man coverage with the NB on the slot WR and the outside corners man up on the perimeter WR's. It also appears that the SS is in man on the TE. Going back to that Buck Slant 3 play. Let's say that's our call with this look. What I'm advocating is when I as the user hit show blitz, the NB creeps off the slot at an angle. His aiming point is the backfield. The WILB should begin a looping animation since the OLB and DE will be crashing down inside on the snap. Ideally what should happen on the snap is the WILB is on his way and the CB is already coming across the line. The OLB should attack the Guard which would leave the LT on an island to either pick up the NB, in which case the WILB turns up the B gap and attacks the QB. If there is no blocker (HB) he should get the sack. Refer the Lewis sacking Big Ben in real life video. If the LT follows the OLB inside then the NB should come off the edge untouched. Refer to Ravens vs Jets Sunday Night Football last season. First play of the game for the Ravens Defense Ed Reed did exactly that. Suggs crash down inside, Ed Reed pre-aligned on the slot and timed it perfectly off the edge and strip sacked Sanchez.

Make sense?

If I had the following call against the same offensive play:



I would expect when I hit show blitz the SILB to pop out of his stance and start to charge the RG. I would expect the safety to creep at first then get a full head of steam and charge the B gap so that on the snap his movement is unimpeded as he crosses the line; unless the line picks it up or a back picks him up that is. Some guys are going to charge faster because of where they are coming from others might skip step rather than charger because they do not have far to go. Sometimes they creep.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

Big let me see if I can explain it using an example. Let's just use Nickel 2-4-5 Buck Slant 3



On this one there are five rushers, two of which we might label "blitzers" the WILB and the NB. Let's say the offense is in a single back slot formation like so:



Just taking these two plays and matching them against one another we would have the match up we are looking for.

.................................................W ILB.......SILB..............SS.................... .....

.........CB.............NB...........OLB......DE.. ......DE........OLB.............................CB
..........................WR............OT.......G .....C.....G......OT...TE........................W R
.........WR

Alignment might be off a little bit but you get the picture. When you are on offense it looks like this is straight man to man coverage with the NB on the slot WR and the outside corners man up on the perimeter WR's. It also appears that the SS is in man on the TE. Going back to that Buck Slant 3 play. Let's say that's our call with this look. What I'm advocating is when I as the user hit show blitz, the NB creeps off the slot at an angle. His aiming point is the backfield. The WILB should begin a looping animation since the OLB and DE will be crashing down inside on the snap. Ideally what should happen on the snap is the WILB is on his way and the CB is already coming across the line. The OLB should attack the Guard which would leave the LT on an island to either pick up the NB, in which case the WILB turns up the B gap and attacks the QB. If there is no blocker (HB) he should get the sack. Refer the Lewis sacking Big Ben in real life video. If the LT follows the OLB inside then the NB should come off the edge untouched. Refer to Ravens vs Jets Sunday Night Football last season. First play of the game for the Ravens Defense Ed Reed did exactly that. Suggs crash down inside, Ed Reed pre-aligned on the slot and timed it perfectly off the edge and strip sacked Sanchez.

Make sense?

If I had the following call against the same offensive play:



I would expect when I hit show blitz the SILB to pop out of his stance and start to charge the RG. I would expect the safety to creep at first then get a full head of steam and charge the B gap so that one the snap his movement is impeded as he crosses the line; unless the line picks it up or a back picks him up that is. Some guys are going to charge faster because of where they are coming from others might skip step rather than charger because they do not have far to go. Sometimes they creep.

It might didn't seem like it but I understood most of that from the get go. It was the bold I was having an issue picturing as if when someone decided to hit "timed blitz", the Safety would come running up and the LB would wait until the Safety was even, then they both head for the LOS, lol.

I know that sounds crazy but that seems like how Madden would ordinarily do it, the way defenders sync up with each other currently. Anyway, I see what you are saying now completely with "Show Blitz" being a manual timing mechanic instead of how it works now.

I like it!

[LBzrule]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

It might didn't seem like it but I understood most of that from the get go. It was the bold I was having an issue picturing as if when someone decided to hit "timed blitz", the Safety would come running up and the LB would wait until the Safety was even, then they both head for the LOS, lol.

I know that sounds crazy but that seems like how Madden would ordinarily do it, the way defenders sync up with each other currently. Anyway, I see what you are saying now completely with "Show Blitz" being a manual timing mechanic instead of how it works now.

I like it!

Yeah, see on a play like that SS Overload 3 that backer has to hit the line first to set the lane for the SS. The one thing I do not like about plays like this in Madden is ideally I would have the WILB lined up on the line of scrimmage opposite B gap from the blitz. Have him showing bluff. The NB should also show bluff off the left side. I hit show blitz the WILB and NB stay showing bluff the SILB and SS come charge the right side of the line, on the snap I get a blitz on the right and the WILB and NB dropping out into coverage.

[jyoung]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

Man, I remember playing 2K and 2K1 on the Dreamcast for the first time and seeing AI defenders sprint up to the line right before a blitz. That was mind-blowing back in 1999 - 2000.

Also, the defensive linemen in those games would sometimes try to get an extra step on the offensive linemen by jumping through the neutral zone a little ahead of the snap.

All of that stuff was AI controlled. The developers just wrote extra behavior scripts for the defenders to follow on blitz plays.

[shttymcgee]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

Yeah, see on a play like that SS Overload 3 that backer has to hit the line first to set the lane for the SS. The one thing I do not like about plays like this in Madden is ideally I would have the WILB lined up on the line of scrimmage opposite B gap from the blitz. Have him showing bluff. The NB should also show bluff off the left side. I hit show blitz the WILB and NB stay showing bluff the SILB and SS come charge the right side of the line, on the snap I get a blitz on the right and the WILB and NB dropping out into coverage.

That second blitz isn't something you're going to see too much of. I'm not saying it couldn't ever be run, it's sound in the sense that it is 3 under 3 deep, but it is asking way too much out of the LILB. How is he supposed to get to flats on the other side of the formation? If it's 2x2, it's an easy completion.

Just to play devil's advocate with the first blitz, when the offense sees the LILB creeping outside (using your manual show blitz idea), they should zone that off and pick up all the rushers. This is how this stuff gets picked up on saturdays and sundays. Little tip-offs like that, especially DL tightening their techniques, is what leads to fire-zones being blocked. In reality, most fire-zones get blocked. It is more common that there is no free rusher than when there is one.

[LBzrule]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

That second blitz isn't something you're going to see too much of. I'm not saying it couldn't ever be run, it's sound in the sense that it is 3 under 3 deep, but it is asking way too much out of the LILB. How is he supposed to get to flats on the other side of the formation? If it's 2x2, it's an easy completion.

Just to play devil's advocate with the first blitz, when the offense sees the LILB creeping outside (using your manual show blitz idea), they should zone that off and pick up all the rushers. This is how this stuff gets picked up on saturdays and sundays. Little tip-offs like that, especially DL tightening their techniques, is what leads to fire-zones being blocked. In reality, most fire-zones get blocked. It is more common that there is no free rusher than when there is one.

Yeah that second one you won't see much of. I just used that one as an example. To be truthful I don't like a lot of the zone blitzes in Madden because most of them = easy completion.