Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

[bukktown]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

Dice this game is designed for the 8 year old sim gamer, we should be lucky to get a show blitz left-center-right.

[PSUEagle]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

That second blitz isn't something you're going to see too much of. I'm not saying it couldn't ever be run, it's sound in the sense that it is 3 under 3 deep, but it is asking way too much out of the LILB. How is he supposed to get to flats on the other side of the formation? If it's 2x2, it's an easy completion.

Just to play devil's advocate with the first blitz, when the offense sees the LILB creeping outside (using your manual show blitz idea), they should zone that off and pick up all the rushers. This is how this stuff gets picked up on saturdays and sundays. Little tip-offs like that, especially DL tightening their techniques, is what leads to fire-zones being blocked. In reality, most fire-zones get blocked. It is more common that there is no free rusher than when there is one.

I agree with this: that's a blitz that really can only be run against 3X1. And even then, you would need to have the backside corner locked up in man coverage. The backer playing Seam/Curl/Flat (SCIF) would then relate to the first crosser or to the back if he releases weak. But since the offense is usually going to slide weak in turn protection (half-slide), the back will probably go to the other side (since the back and center almost never go to the same side in Pass Pro unless the QB makes a TOM [Tailback On Mike] call).

It also illustrates my earlier points about how blitzes need to be adaptable based on offensive formations: certain stock pressures can't be run against certain formations and still be "sound." Different guys will pressure based on the offensive set. For example, against 2X2 with two detached slot receivers, a 3-4 team playing Quarters really can't pressure an OLB in the Base defense because they need them both to walk out and at least apex (split the difference) between the receivers and offensive tackles to their respective sides. If the formation were 2X2 with a TE in the box, though, you can pressure with the SOLB.

Little details like the above is the difference between playing successful team defense: if you're unsound in alignment you're beaten from the start.

Back on topic: I would set up the show blitz mechanic so that guys would start milling around like the Steelers do in their "Chaos" package. Once you hit the button, you're stuck with it: you can't change back unless you audible the entire defense (to prevent the shake blitz).

I also want an option to pick what kind of pre-snap shell I want on defense: I don't necessarily always want to start my alignment in 2 High every snap and roll late. However, either way I want my backers to pre-align where they need to be: i.e, If I'm in an Under front and I have my safety rolling weak the WILL and MIKE better ****ing BOSS (Bump Out Strong).

Good post.

[shttymcgee]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

I agree with this: that's a blitz that really can only be run against 3X1. And even then, you would need to have the backside corner locked up in man coverage. The backer playing Seam/Curl/Flat (SCIF) would then relate to the first crosser or to the back if he releases weak. But since the offense is usually going to slide weak in turn protection (half-slide), the back will probably go to the other side (since the back and center almost never go to the same side in Pass Pro unless the QB makes a TOM [Tailback On Mike] call).

It also illustrates my earlier points about how blitzes need to be adaptable based on offensive formations: certain stock pressures can't be run against certain formations and still be "sound." Different guys will pressure based on the offensive set. For example, against 2X2 with two detached slot receivers, a 3-4 team playing Quarters really can't pressure an OLB in the Base defense because they need them both to walk out and at least apex (split the difference) between the receivers and offensive tackles to their respective sides. If the formation were 2X2 with a TE in the box, though, you can pressure with the SOLB.

Little details like the above is the difference between playing successful team defense: if you're unsound in alignment you're beaten from the start.

Back on topic: I would set up the show blitz mechanic so that guys would start milling around like the Steelers do in their "Chaos" package. Once you hit the button, you're stuck with it: you can't change back unless you audible the entire defense (to prevent the shake blitz).

I also want an option to pick what kind of pre-snap shell I want on defense: I don't necessarily always want to start my alignment in 2 High every snap and roll late. However, either way I want my backers to pre-align where they need to be: i.e, If I'm in an Under front and I have my safety rolling weak the WILL and MIKE better ****ing BOSS (Bump Out Strong).

Good post.

I know that "trips" is a gameplan category if you use the gameplan feature, but how in the world do you know it's trips before the offense lines up? Would be a pretty good 3x1 audible though.

The "tom" adjustment you described is exacty the way overloaded blitzes should be picked up in the game, not by sliding the tackle across the formation.

Just to show the complex and individul nature of how football strategy differs from staff to staff, here's how I'd adjust to 2x2 in quarters: One guy walks out (obviously the one not that's not involved in the pressure). All the way out, not apexed (outside leverage is our base, so it's the same technique in quarters, 3, robber, or fire-zone) because it lets us not adjust our run fits for the safeties. On the other side (the one with out the walked out guy) we make an adjustment and pattern read with the corner on #2 (so he'll play the flats if #2 is quick to the flats) and the backer can still play the flats (he'll get there slower because of his tighter alignment, which I want anyway with that adjustment). Of course, in college the hashmarks are a lot wider and it's easier to do this into the boundary than it would be when the ball is basically always in the middle of the field, like it is in the pros.

Do i think all of this minutae must be represented in Madden? Of course not. That's why I truly believe that football has got to be the hardest game to simulate, there's just so many adjustments that need to be made on an almost every-play basis added to the fact that the general fan has no idea that these adjustments are constantly being made.

[PSUEagle]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

I know that "trips" is a gameplan category if you use the gameplan feature, but how in the world do you know it's trips before the offense lines up? Would be a pretty good 3x1 audible though.

The "tom" adjustment you described is exacty the way overloaded blitzes should be picked up in the game, not by sliding the tackle across the formation.

Just to show the complex and individul nature of how football strategy differs from staff to staff, here's how I'd adjust to 2x2 in quarters: One guy walks out (obviously the one not that's not involved in the pressure). All the way out, not apexed (outside leverage is our base, so it's the same technique in quarters, 3, robber, or fire-zone) because it lets us not adjust our run fits for the safeties. On the other side (the one with out the walked out guy) we make an adjustment and pattern read with the corner on #2 (so he'll play the flats if #2 is quick to the flats) and the backer can still play the flats (he'll get there slower because of his tighter alignment, which I want anyway with that adjustment). Of course, in college the hashmarks are a lot wider and it's easier to do this into the boundary than it would be when the ball is basically always in the middle of the field, like it is in the pros.

Do i think all of this minutae must be represented in Madden? Of course not. That's why I truly believe that football has got to be the hardest game to simulate, there's just so many adjustments that need to be made on an almost every-play basis added to the fact that the general fan has no idea that these adjustments are constantly being made.

I've never used the gameplan feature, so I'm not very familiar with how it works. I just remember being disappointed with how shallow it is: on offense I'd prefer to have an entire menu of plays (could be between 5-30) appear for every situation I'm in. That would mimic a coordinator looking at his sheet based on D&D as opposed to the deal we have now where the CPU picks a play for you. But that's neither here nor there...

The blitz we're discussing is one that would probably be a check against a specific offensive formation. The best example I can think of is a team that lines up in 3X1 out of the shotgun and aligns the back weak. In that case, it's probably BOB protection (since if you slide strong you only have the single side WR to throw "Hot" to) and the defense feels like they can get a 2 for 1 on the back, especially if it's a team that likes to throw to the boundary (Curl/Flat, Out/Swing, etc.) against 1 High. Eliminate the flat by making the back block, have the corner aggressively play #1 weak, and have the ILB buzz.

Having said that, it could be something where one of the playbook guys saw it and just drew it up, with no regard to how adaptable it actually is. I suspect that's how most plays are implemented, sadly.

You couldn't predict Trips vs. Doubles out of the huddle (although personnel groupings will give you clues against most teams as far as what to eliminate in terms of potential formations), but I'm more talking about a general issue Madden/NCAA has: pressures need multiple checks based on offensive alignment. For example, I can't really run a double slot CB blitz out of Dime if the offense is in 3X1: I need the Dime and Nickel to the strength. So instead, would be some kind of mechanic in place where I can have the FS roll down and come off the edge weak in lieu of the dime back. That kind of thing.

The DC for the team I work for does what you describe out of Quarters (OLB's outside leverage on #2) out of an Odd front. Run fits stay the same (the safeties are taught to fit off the backers i.e. "make em' right") and you also make it much harder to throw bubble/quicks to slot receivers. It does make it hard to cover something like Double Slants to the field though: the safety will never make the play in time when #2 comes inside quickly.

We do make an adjustment against 2X2 with two detached (think formations like Gun Spread) where we have the backers apex and bring an ILB in the pressure instead. The CB's now have to be more aggressive on #1 running a quick game route (speed cut, hitch, etc.) because they don't have a backer who can help them as quickly. We use it when the receivers are so far out that the only thing that can really threaten us is an in breaking route. That, and an offense that wants to displace their receivers to get the OLB's out of run support.

"Overloads" don't really bother me as a coach if I can detect the patterns that the defense shows when they do that. I'm a firm believer that QB's should understand protection schemes along with fronts. The former is invaluable in figuring out whether you're "Hot," while the latter will often tell you coverages (i.e. it ain't Tampa 2 when the D is in an Under front, expect the "NCAA Blitz" when the the nose is in a "Shade" vs. when he's in a "G," etc.). If I can figure out what you're doing, I can slide to the pressure and waive my two middle fingers at the DC on the other sideline.

Bottom line, there's tons of minutia that your average (or even knowledgeable) fan has no clue about, as you alluded to above. There are multiple ways to play defense soundly, but at the end of the day the guys making the game need to have a much more thorough knowledge of the ways these things all tie together than they currently do.

[raguel]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

You couldn't predict Trips vs. Doubles out of the huddle (although personnel groupings will give you clues against most teams as far as what to eliminate in terms of potential formations), but I'm more talking about a general issue Madden/NCAA has: pressures need multiple checks based on offensive alignment. For example, I can't really run a double slot CB blitz out of Dime if the offense is in 3X1: I need the Dime and Nickel to the strength. So instead, would be some kind of mechanic in place where I can have the FS roll down and come off the edge weak in lieu of the dime back. That kind of thing.

I like this, but it always throws me off when a defensive player does something different than what the play art shows; for example in the 3-4 ILB spy (doesn't matter which play as long as one of the ILBs spy) sometimes the two ILBS will switch assignments and I have no idea why. If I'm controlling one of them, it sometimes causes a big play against me.

[shttymcgee]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

I like this, but it always throws me off when a defensive player does something different than what the play art shows; for example in the 3-4 ILB spy (doesn't matter which play as long as one of the ILBs spy) sometimes the two ILBS will switch assignments and I have no idea why. If I'm controlling one of them, it sometimes causes a big play against me.

And that's the balancing act. Which is more important, defensive soundness or ease of play? I would rather see sound defense, but I already know what sort adjustments should be made. BTW, looking at your play art once the players line up should tell you what everyone's assignment should be.

[raguel]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden/NCAA

And that's the balancing act. Which is more important, defensive soundness or ease of play? I would rather see sound defense, but I already know what sort adjustments should be made. BTW, looking at your play art once the players line up should tell you what everyone's assignment should be.

Well, the play art should but I've never notice it switch pre-snap in those situations.

[atc43]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

Sorry for bumping such an old thread but wouldnt a simple fix for Timed blitzes by the AI be adding a simple preplay control? Not one like we have now where we have to jump through 20 different hoops but a simple one say like flicking the RS down to trigger the AIs creep to the line animation for Timed Blitzes or Show Blitzes.

And for Sugar plays that already start out showing a blitz flick the RS up to back the showing defenders out into normal alignment?

When the AI is on defense i believe any pre play movements should be determined by the AIs play call. And with tiered playcalling implemented we would see the same two looks but with different movements(ie timed sugar blitz one play, and a sugar blitz bluff+creep back the next)

[bkrich83]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

LBZ, as usual outstanding breakdown and explanation!!

[Trick13]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

This is a really old thread, but I am wondering if any of the GCers have had discussions with the devs about making some changes in this area.

I was going to post a new thread on this, but was saved by the "search feature".

I wish that Madden would adapt a little more complex version of something that HC09 had - in that game you could "save" adjustments so that every time you called a play the pre snap tweaks you made would be already in there. I think there were a couple of options; "every time this play is called", "for the rest of this game" and something else - forgive me I haven't played that game in years..

I would love to see Madden have options, in practice mode (especially in CCM or CCF) where you could "orchestrate" the pre-snap movements and "save" them in a more detailed version of what HC09 had.

There is a 2-4-5 Cover 1 play, where there is a spy - I like to blitz the spy and move him to just inside the outside rusher on that side - would be cool if I could "walk him down" inside like I am going to attack the A-gap, then move him outside and "save" that so the CPU would then do that every time I call that play.

And at this point I would take anything that separates bringing the SS into the box and "show blitz" because they should be 2 different things - at a minimum.

[speedy9386]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

Really this conversation needs to be continued

[Trick13]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

I am wondering if EA could put in "color coded" defensive assignments on the DL that give a visual cue as to 1-gap or 2-gap assignments. Say dark red for 1-gap, then light orange or yellow for 2-gap.

I am sure that "nanos" are the reason why, but I hate that when I shift my DL left or right - they are still headed to the same gap, or technique that the original play called for - If I wanted them to go to those spots I would not waste my time shifting them over!!!!!!!!

Perhaps with Clint O. in house they could recruit some very "talented" "nano creators" to come in and show him how they attack the blocking logic so that Clint can take that info and devise a way to "counter" the nanos that would be as "realistic as possible" and thus free up some defensive techniques that are missing (my guess because they allow for too many nanos)...

[Trick13]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

And it would be nice to see an expansion of "fake" snap counts, center/qb awr impacting protection calls - potentially "automated" on lower difficulty levels, High awareness QBs and Cs "pointing out" blitzers - adding into the chess match, deeper OL "adjustments" where the user can specify a double team on specific defender or adjust to a particular overused blitz setup and so on

[raiderphantom]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

To the OP, regarding foot movement and the forward lean, that's just cosmetic work. It's important, but it should be put on the back burner. Fixing OL/DL interaction is more important than anything regarding blitzing/line play. But I do like the point of getting players closer to the line, especially in long yardage situations. Great stuff by the way. This is the kind of knowledge and thinking that is missing from sports games.

[KBLover]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

What sayeth thee?

Yes, please.