OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

[Flamehead]

Re: OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

Based on the improvements in presentation, commentary, and gameplay, plus the change in franchise mode, I can see myself enjoying this years edition immensely IF there are no game breaking bugs in CC mode.

[PacMan3000]

Re: OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

RE: Presentation, and lack of network branding - you don't need network branding to have great/TV style presentation. NBA 2K doesn't have a network brand but it still delivers a great presentation package. So although I get why some believe that slapping an ESPN or CBS logo would make things more immersive, I'm not entirely sure that would fix every problem that people still seem to have w/ the presentation side of things.

You're focusing your attention on the wrong thing if you think network logo automatically = great presentation & a great game. Most recent example I can think of that is Grand Slam Tennis 2, which had ESPN presentation but still felt subpar on many levels.

If you look at the NBA 2K team they say they worked with guys from TNT to get as close as they could to an accurate TV presentation. I think EA could do that but not put the 'CBS' or 'ESPN' logo up there, it would still be a huge step. Granted like I said the presentation has already taken a huge step from years past, and I do think this years' is an attempt to replicate a 'CBS' broadcast w/o the logo.

This is a great point. Remember how EA boasted about replicating all the real-life stadium cameras in Madden 12, saying that in each stadium, you'll be seeing replicated pre-play, post-play, and replays from virtually the same angle as it would be in the real-life stadium?

That appears to either be completely gone, or significantly reduced now. Why? There's not even any close-ups in the game anymore--everything is a bland medium shot presentation-wise. And the replays are always the same 3-shot/splice method.

Audio is *much* improved, but in terms of visual presentation, they never build on their success. They innovate, and then they walk away from what they innovated. Instead of building on the visual presentation last year (which I thought was quite good), they've gutted it.

[Sabredj]

Between the CC not allowing any roster edits in an offline dynasty and now the same ole same ole with the demo, it looks like I'll be skipping Madden this year. At least NCAA is playing much better after the patch IMO. I hope I hear different after Madden's release but this is pretty disappointing.

[Hooe]

Re: OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

gamers don't want the game of football to change, they want EA to eliminate all of the mistakes that have plagued the Madden franchise for years (example: all versions of Madden are offense heavy; they are also pass heavy). EA has ignored other facets and intricacies of the game of football and focused on a few minor aspects (that people like to exploit) then they slap lipstick on it and sell it to the masses. If there are other aspects of the game of football that you like that aren't included in the Madden Team's focus (line play or the running game), you have probably felt neglected (insert 2K fans here). This is the reason why the debate has continued between 2K players and Madden players.

Arguably EA has the bold right, given that passing offenses in real life have increased in effectiveness and productivity year after year. Heck, didn't we have three quarterbacks pass for 5000+ last year?

I also don't understand how people can possibly say EA has neglected the running game over the years, given Pro-Tak, RTP, and the improvements in line play that were introduced in Madden 10 and Madden 11. Is it where the most demanding fans want it to be yet? Probably not. Should EA continue to work on this area of the game to improve it? Certainly. Can the current implementation it produce a reasonable, believable result and a fun game? Absolutely.

And for the individual who asserted that if you are not a Madden fan then you are not a football fan, dude, you are a joke. I will always break it down like this...EVERY 2K fan was a Madden fan at one time...that's why we tend to have a little more credibility than most Madden fans. The red pill tastes better.

Anyone who plays a football game has at least a cursory interest the sport of football. As to credibility of an offered opinion, that has nothing to do with one's taste in sports video games; a person's opinion isn't more or less credible based on if he prefers Madden or something else.

[comen]

Arguably EA has the bold right, given that passing offenses in real life have increased in effectiveness and productivity year after year. Heck, didn't we have three quarterbacks pass for 5000+ last year?

I also don't understand how people can possibly say EA has neglected the running game over the years, given Pro-Tak, RTP, and the improvements in line play that were introduced in Madden 10 and Madden 11. Is it where the most demanding fans want it to be yet? Probably not. Should EA continue to work on this area of the game to improve it? Certainly. Can the current implementation it produce a reasonable, believable result and a fun game? Absolutely.



Anyone who plays a football game has at least a cursory interest the sport of football. As to credibility of an offered opinion, that has nothing to do with one's taste in sports video games; a person's opinion isn't more or less credible based on if he prefers Madden or something else.

Why is everyone, most everyone on here so sensitive including the people that run the show??????????????
Like if you mention 2k5, people thro a hizzy lol!
Or if you state your opinion about something you ight get banned lol!!
Cry me a river!!!!!!!!!
Please donrt ban me cause I hurt your feelings or mentioned 2k5 or went off topic!!!!
I got one word, NOODS!!

[rangerrick012]

Re: OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

Why is everyone, most everyone on here so sensitive including the people that run the show??????????????
Like if you mention 2k5, people thro a hizzy lol!
Or if you state your opinion about something you ight get banned lol!!
Cry me a river!!!!!!!!!
Please donrt ban me cause I hurt your feelings or mentioned 2k5 or went off topic!!!!
I got one word, NOODS!!

Mature response.

[jfsolo]

Re: OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

Arguably EA has the bold right, given that passing offenses in real life have increased in effectiveness and productivity year after year. Heck, didn't we have three quarterbacks pass for 5000+ last year?

I also don't understand how people can possibly say EA has neglected the running game over the years, given Pro-Tak, RTP, and the improvements in line play that were introduced in Madden 10 and Madden 11. Is it where the most demanding fans want it to be yet? Probably not. Should EA continue to work on this area of the game to improve it? Certainly. Can the current implementation it produce a reasonable, believable result and a fun game? Absolutely.



Anyone who plays a football game has at least a cursory interest the sport of football. As to credibility of an offered opinion, that has nothing to do with one's taste in sports video games; a person's opinion isn't more or less credible based on if he prefers Madden or something else.

For those most demanding fans, the current implementation, can't produce a reasonable, believable result and a fun game. What isn't there simply ruins the experience for them. I think that they will soon get to the point where 90% of folks will be golden, but that last 10% will never get the game they want.



Not everyone will say it, "out loud", as it were, but many, many people here most definitely decide credibility based on which game a person prefers. It's one of those Internet Truism.

[ImaGamer_OS]

Re: OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

The demo is a demo. I don't place much stock in what comes out of demo releases - never have.

That said, one thing that was irking me was some of the pointless moments shown in the instant replays. I threw a nice TD pass to Santana Moss and the majority of the replay was focused on RGIII walking around AFTER throwing the ball.

The final release version being shown by those fortunate enough to have early copies leave me wanting more. I hold hope for Madden 13.

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Re: OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

I think I can answer that.

Some people were looking for a different priority of legacy issues to be dealt with from EA.

For example, some people wanted OL/DL overhauled, momentum, plant footing worked on before pass trajectories, read and react, leaping LB's and CB's, etc.....

At the end of the day, EA makes the decision, we can only make suggestions.

I would have much preferred what Roadman listed here over IE. OMG this would have been insane

[GiantBlue76]

Re: OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

I would have much preferred what Roadman listed here over IE. OMG this would have been insane

I'm with you Tyrant, and while I welcomed the physics engine, I was on record stating that I didn't think a physics engine would solve the problems with the game.

Also, to touch upon the mention of pro-tak, the line play and the physics being added as not "neglecting" the run game - let's examine the big elephant in the room now shall we? The only thing that was implemented remotely well of those three was the run blocking, and it's OK. It is still silly at times, and the player movement ruins what is actually done well in that area. The physics gets a pass because it's new, innovative and they made an effort with it in it's first release. It's not that bad for a first try. ProTak was nothing short of an abomination, and to say that it enhanced the realism of the game is embarrassing. The concept was good, but once again, the implementation was poor like most things from Tiburon.

Also, I'm not interested in 2k vs. Madden debates, but I do agree with the guy who said that most 2k fans were Madden fans. That is absolutely the truth. I grew up playing Madden, and I probably played more Maddens than a lot of guys on this board. The fact still remains, those of us looking for a simulation are going to gravitate towards what is better, not what we played in the past, not what we WANT to be better, but what IS better. The only reason I prefer 2k football is because it is better at representing the real life game on the field. That, of course is a relatively subjective stance. However, if you are looking for realism in your game on the field, it's hard to argue that Madden's player movement, interaction, line play, penalties and ball physics are nearly as realistic as 2k football. Now, I don't really care whether it's 2k or EA, I just know that I got a taste of realistic play and I know that it can be done without the slew of excuses that are made for Madden's failure to nail down these concepts. I got to drive the Porsche for a year, now I'm being told to drive the Subaru without having the option to go back to the Porsche. Am I going to be upset by that? Of course I am. For others who have always liked the Subaru better without even trying the Porsche it isn't going to matter as much. Now, I look at Connected Careers mode, and I see something that looks like a separate company built it. I see amazing depth, polish, attention to detail and passion all exhibited in its creation. It doesn't at all match up with what we get on the field. For the last 5 years we've been told that things like line play, player movement and running were big issues that they were aware of and would be fixed, and here it is 2012 and they are not fixed. Why couldn't those be fixed along with the new things they added? Not a whole lot was added to this Madden. The things that were added were welcomed additions for sure, but it's not enough. There was the big hype for the physics engine (which is still a beta and only affects collisions) and the rest was low hanging fruit that could not have possible taken 9 months to build. Where are the player movement, the proper line logic and the interaction fixes? Sorry - but people don't deserve a pat on the back for enabling me to throw the ball over a defender in a version 8 next gen football game.

All that being said, Madden 13 is certainly not going to be a bad game. It has a lot of potential. However, we are past the point of recognizing potential. I, for one, am sick of that word, and so are a lot of other football nuts. It's time to make the game worthwhile NOW. Madden is not a AAA title that belongs in the same sentence as NHL, FIFA, MLB and NBA. Not even close. A decent game that is fun to play for sure, but not the wowing, powerhouse that we should expect from a powerhouse publisher with a 25 year old product.

[comen]

Well put! Couldnt have said it better myself, ty!

[roadman]

Re: OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

Alright, I've played a few more games, and I'm starting to enjoy the demo more each game. It just seems a lot fresher than the last few years.

I've played Madden for 24 years and I'm seeing first time for everything's. Twice tonight, both QB's shrugged off tacklers that came flying at them and still stood upright in the pocket. If that happened in the past, it was either a sack or a wounded duck would come squirting out. Thank you, IE.

Threw a pass up to Vernon Davis streaking down the middle and stretching his whole body out to make the grab and make sure the hands were underneath the ball on the way down. The replay was a thing of beauty to see.

Also, with sliders, I'm seeing both DE's getting pressure, a nice touch vs the last several years.

The game needs more work and improvement from areas I've mentioned before, but I'm liking what I'm seeing at this stage.

I'll see if I can withstand the honeymoon period.

[peylog27]

So... After year 1 in ccm, it will be impossible for Matt Barkley and d Robinson to ever be in the nfl together? If I create one, then create the other... The first one will be deleted?

Instead, I will have to scout some bs qb from Troy named tyson Martinez who is 6 4 with a rocket arm, and I can never change it?

Give the demo a b- in gameplay with some steps in the right direction, but geez, 2012 and thy have to take so much out to add this (demo)..

Suck.

[Jimi XIII]

Re: OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

Alright, I've played a few more games, and I'm starting to enjoy the demo more each game. It just seems a lot fresher than the last few years.

To say that the IE has little impact on the game is absurd IMHO. I've played Madden for 24 years and I'm seeing first time for everything's. Twice tonight, both QB's shrugged off tacklers and still stood upright in the pocket. If that happened in the past, it was either a sack or a wounded duck would come squirting out.

Also, to say that the catch animations are cosmetic is off, too. Threw one up to Vernon Davis streaking down the middle and stretching his whole body out to make the grab and make sure the hands were underneath the ball on the way down. The replay was a thing of beauty to see.

Also, with sliders, I'm seeing both DE's getting pressure, a nice touch vs the last several years.

The game needs more work and improvement from areas I've mentioned before, but I'm liking what I'm seeing at this stage.

I'll see if I can withstand the honeymoon period.

It is absurd to me as well, and I've been a Madden critic for some time. Suction is practically gone and any physic interaction is finally accounted for.

I had a play were the receiver stumbled after a spin to avoid being taken down and I immediately hit him for a fumble. That most likely would not have happened with the fixed animations of the past. Most likely I would have been subjected to seeing the stumble animation take place and him getting the extra 2 or so yards no matter what I would've tried to do as a defender. I'm seeing ball carriers knocked out the air in hurdling motions, off balanced players getting that extra nudge to knock them down, etc...it's great.

There's been so many of those situations in this game that GREATLY improve the game-play this year. Sure, there's other issues to work but this IE is a VERY necessary addition imo. All the issues I've seen are typically more cosmetic/visual than a negative nuisance on the game-play like the suction & fixed/canned animations of the past.


btw I've also seemed to notice how DEs or LBs get more pressure than DTs this demo so far. As a skeptic, I really can't complain about M13 too much thus far.

[Hooe]

Re: OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

Also, to touch upon the mention of pro-tak, the line play and the physics being added as not "neglecting" the run game

That was me who brought that up.

let's examine the big elephant in the room now shall we? The only thing that was implemented remotely well of those three was the run blocking, and it's OK. It is still silly at times, and the player movement ruins what is actually done well in that area. The physics gets a pass because it's new, innovative and they made an effort with it in it's first release. It's not that bad for a first try. ProTak was nothing short of an abomination, and to say that it enhanced the realism of the game is embarrassing. The concept was good, but once again, the implementation was poor like most things from Tiburon.

I never Pro-Tak was perfection, but A - go pop in Madden 09 and compare (or whatever the last Madden was before the recently-added run block assignment AI first appeared), and B - find me a team whose offensive line blocks perfectly with its gap / man assignments on every play from scrimmage. That team would never lose.

I completely disagree on the opinion of Pro-Tak, you are selling it severely short. It was a necessary step forward in player interaction, particularly in having collisions be more than one-on-one, or one of the five canned two-on-one gang tackles that Madden used to feature. There were some ridiculous moments, sure, particularly in M10 - the spin-out of the huge pileup comes to mind - but let's look at the system from a fair high-level vantage point here. It was a good, necessary, and logical progression. If I recall, Pro-Tak was also used to help improve offensive line play, allowing for even a rare double-team of a defensive lineman on occasion. Madden 10 would not have been the absolutely-lauded step forward that it was for the series without Pro-Tak.

Now, I look at Connected Careers mode, and I see something that looks like a separate company built it. I see amazing depth, polish, attention to detail and passion all exhibited in its creation. It doesn't at all match up with what we get on the field. For the last 5 years we've been told that things like line play, player movement and running were big issues that they were aware of and would be fixed, and here it is 2012 and they are not fixed. Why couldn't those be fixed along with the new things they added?

There are only so many people working on a video game. They can't do everything ever in one cycle. Things get prioritized. Heck, this amazing Connected Careers mode you refer to, it took two years to make, according to Josh Looman himself.

Not a whole lot was added to this Madden.

This is simply not true and I will not let this slide.

• Real-time physics
• Connected Careers mode
• total control lead passing mechanic
• meaningful timed passing automatic dropbacks (1-3-5-7 step)
• new tech for receivers catching the football
• Ball Hawk mechanic for defensive backs playing against the pass
• new passing hot routes for running backs / other backfield players
• best-on-best preplay defensive alignment
• route timing windows affect when a receiver is prepared to look for a catch
• reaction-based defense (defender must see ball to react to it)
• all-new audio systems for commentary and crowd
• hundreds of hours of new color commentary from Jim Nantz and Phil Simms, replacing Gus Johnson and Cris Collinsworth
• presentation overhaul
• redesigned frontend user interface
• significant rendering engine improvements (HDR lighting, per-play lighting changes)
• some new stuff into Ultimate Team which probably interests other people but not myself

The things that were added were welcomed additions for sure, but it's not enough. There was the big hype for the physics engine (which is still a beta and only affects collisions) and the rest was low hanging fruit that could not have possible taken 9 months to build.

Again, CCM took two years to build, as stated by EA themselves. The systems that EA is leveraging for RTP is probably the same tech that began in FIFA 12, so it technically has been in development for two years as well. Things that are good take time to make.

Where are the player movement, the proper line logic and the interaction fixes? Sorry - but people don't deserve a pat on the back for enabling me to throw the ball over a defender in a version 8 next gen football game.

Why not? You couldn't in Madden (with a great deal of success, anyway) before, and you can (with much more success) now. This significantly affects how you the user actively controls and plays the game when passing the football. That is a more necessary and relevant improvement from a video game perspective than offensive line play.

The user never has direct control over anything an offensive lineman may do; he can change assignments with slide protect, but the AI is still going to always play out that assignment regardless of user input. Changes to that end are much more interesting. Similarly to the route timing windows; this actively affects how the user plays the game, because him throwing to a receiver with a dimmed icon (that receiver isn't looking) likely is going to return a negative result. Similarly to the read-and-react defense; if the defender's back is turned, throwing over that defender probably is going to return a positive result because he will never identify the ball. You see where I'm going with this; all these additions directly affect how the user plays the game. Thus, strictly from a video game perspective, they are more important.

This is not me saying the OL-DL play shouldn't get any love; it should. But you simply can't so readily dismiss what has been added to the passing game.

All that being said, Madden 13 is certainly not going to be a bad game. It has a lot of potential. However, we are past the point of recognizing potential. I, for one, am sick of that word, and so are a lot of other football nuts. It's time to make the game worthwhile NOW. Madden is not a AAA title that belongs in the same sentence as NHL, FIFA, MLB and NBA. Not even close. A decent game that is fun to play for sure, but not the wowing, powerhouse that we should expect from a powerhouse publisher with a 25 year old product.

Four points addressing this and in closing:

1 - Offering opinions as fact, while fun, doesn't make your opinion any more true than mine.

2 - Madden is objectively a AAA title; that whole AAA - AA - A thing refers solely to the budget of and resources thrown at a project, not the subjective quality of resulting product. To this end, Madden approaches Call of Duty.

3 - What ever happened to judging a game on its own merits? It's fine if you don't like it, but I will never understand the "Madden should be better by now." So should everything else in the universe. Unfortunately, we live in the present; Madden, among other things, is what it is. As such, judge it by what it is and make your purchasing decision accordingly, again based on only what game actually pops up on the screen when you put the disc into your console. That's the only fair way to judge it.

4 - If you've decided Madden NFL 13 is not worth your while after playing the demo, that's a fine opinion to have. I disagree with it, personally, but you have every right to your opinion. That said, why would you continue to spend time playing / analyzing / critiquing something you obviously don't enjoy? There are better ways you could be spending your time.