Let's Talk Infield Play (infielders and baserunners)

[Jolly Roger]

I was hoping we could get a discussion going about the overall dynamics of infield play in The Show and how it might be improved in the future.

In general, it seems to me that a combination of small fielding issues accumulate to create too many double plays. In reality, teams get about .5 to 1 double plays per game. In The Show, I'd estimate it comes out to about 1.5 to 2 per game. This may not seem like much, but even that small increment makes a big difference in the game when you consider what an impact it is to get two outs on one play.

Some of the factors I think I'm noticing are:

- Grounders seem to shoot through the infield too fast

- Fielders don't have to slow their momentum and set their body to throw as much as in reality

- Throws seem a bit too fast

- AI batters may not be programmed to avoid the double play by laying off low balls and trying to hit it in the air. Similarly, I'm not sure if the AI ever does any intentional hit and run plays.

- Baserunners don't seem to leap out toward the next base in anticipation of a hit as much as in reality. If you have a speedy runner on first and he takes a healthy shuffle toward second right before a ground ball, it's going to be awfully tough to get him at second and the fielder will often just go to first. I only see this in The Show when the man on first was flat out stealing before a grounder.

If some of these physics/momentum based issues could be improved upon for next year, The Show 13 would even closer to perfection. Does anyone else notice any of these issues?

[nomo17k]

Re: Let's Talk Infield Play (infielders and baserunners)

Haha, good point... in fact, heroesandvillains and I did a fairly extensive test on what causes the inflated number of double plays. (We both agreed that a double play is such an effective rally killer that happening too often kinda kills the flow of the game.)

Here's what I think after the testing.

- Grounders seem to shoot through the infield too fast

This may or may not affect double plays, since bullets can leave infield before getting caught.

- Fielders don't have to slow their momentum and set their body to throw as much as in reality
- Throws seem a bit too fast


I most definitely think these are major culprits. I think the one of the things that the devs are working on is to add natural and organic imperfection to how the CPU fielders perform on the field. There has been a vast improvement in this regard (just go play MLB 10 a bit and you can see it). However, CPU still is a bit too perfect in certain plays. Like being able to make a well-aimed, strong throws after twisting his body on the throw, one-handed relay at the 2B well executed too often, generally making difficult plays more consistently, etc., etc.

- AI batters may not be programmed to avoid the double play by laying off low balls and trying to hit it in the air. Similarly, I'm not sure if the AI ever does any intentional hit and run plays.

H&V suspected this first, and played quite a few test games just to test this point. We put a man on first base, let CPU pitch against CPU hitter and recorded the results in terms of GB/LD/FB, to see if the grounders are induced more in double play situations than other hitting situations... we didn't see such a significant change in the fractions of batted balls, at least not to the extent that can explain the almost 50% increase in DPs compared to real life. So I think isn't a culprit, at least not a major one.


- Baserunners don't seem to leap out toward the next base in anticipation of a hit as much as in reality. If you have a speedy runner on first and he takes a healthy shuffle toward second right before a ground ball, it's going to be awfully tough to get him at second and the fielder will often just go to first. I only see this in The Show when the man on first was flat out stealing before a grounder.

Yeah, I think base running can be fine tuned a bit more... they are aggressive when they need not be, and quite often station to station when they should be going for an extra base. This should be balanced in relation to the CPU throwing decisions and throw strengths though.

[ELDoro]

Re: Let's Talk Infield Play (infielders and baserunners)

I agree with everything you said.

I would also so that the short flips and tosses from say the 2B to SS are way to quick compared to real life.

[seanjeezy]

Re: Let's Talk Infield Play (infielders and baserunners)

- Throws seem a bit too fast

- Throws seem a bit too fast

Funny that you guys mention this because I was at the Mariners game last night and throw speed on 5 was eerily similar to when Carlos Triunfel (who is known to have a rocket arm) was warming up between innings - effortless lasers from the grass at short... The problem is not every infielder can throw 90+, so maybe a greater disparity between arm strength is needed? Maybe combine that with some kind of ratings hit when performing off-balance throws, or even having powerful throws require an extra loadup frame or crow hop...

The other glaring issue (for me at least) is how poorly the batter gets out of the box. Players with 99 speed and Base running ability should have home to first times in the high 3's, but with the speed slider on default they are closer to the mid 4's. The culprit is the poor follow through animations where regardless of swing power has every batter swinging out of his shoes.

[nomo17k]

Re: Let's Talk Infield Play (infielders and baserunners)

Funny that you guys mention this because I was at the Mariners game last night and throw speed on 5 was eerily similar to when Carlos Triunfel (who is known to have a rocket arm) was warming up between innings - effortless lasers from the grass at short... The problem is not every infielder can throw 90+, so maybe a greater disparity between arm strength is needed? Maybe combine that with some kind of ratings hit when performing off-balance throws, or even having powerful throws require an extra loadup frame or crow hop...

The other glaring issue (for me at least) is how poorly the batter gets out of the box. Players with 99 speed and Base running ability should have home to first times in the high 3's, but with the speed slider on default they are closer to the mid 4's. The culprit is the poor follow through animations where regardless of swing power has every batter swinging out of his shoes.

I couldn't agree more with this... because if I agree more, my head will explode. It's that important IMO...

I'm a strong believer that the game will be much better and more fun if the player attributes are mapped to wider ranges in their on-field abilities. This is not just fielding (which as you mentioned is quite subtle though the difference is definitely there), but also for batting and pitching as well.

The wider dynamic ranges in abilities will also make it possible to create/simulate players with exceptional abilities. Right now, you cannot create players who perform exceptionally well in certain categories, like Greg Maddux, Barry Bonds, etc. A vast majority of players cluster around the average, even when some ratings are maxed or minimized.

Or I should mention players like Aroldis Chapman or Craig Kimbrel... otherwise people here would think my head is stuck at 90s baseball... My point is that we can never create players like them unless attribute ratings mean wider ability differences.

[seanjeezy]

Re: Let's Talk Infield Play (infielders and baserunners)

I'm thinking of taking a look at the default roster that shipped with the game and compiling the fielding ratings so I can see if there are any similarities with Tango Tiger's (a.k.a. Fangraphs') fan scouting report. Does anyone have any ideas on how SCEA determines defensive ratings? I have a feeling errors are involved since Brendan Ryan only has a 58 fielding rating.

[nomo17k]

Re: Let's Talk Infield Play (infielders and baserunners)

I'm thinking of taking a look at the default roster that shipped with the game and compiling the fielding ratings so I can see if there are any similarities with Tango Tiger's (a.k.a. Fangraphs') fan scouting report. Does anyone have any ideas on how SCEA determines defensive ratings? I have a feeling errors are involved since Brendan Ryan only has a 58 fielding rating.

You don't need to repeat this yourself, as I have done this for MLB 11 (as far as collecting ratings for all players at MLB level is concerned). If you want to take a look, I can send you the Excel file (or it should be found in one of my earlier posts).

I bet you cannot really "reverse engineer" how SCEA rates them though. There just are too many possibilities.

[Jolly Roger]

Re: Let's Talk Infield Play (infielders and baserunners)

Haha, good point... in fact, heroesandvillains and I did a fairly extensive test on what causes the inflated number of double plays.

You know, I actually found that thread you guys had going (read it front to back) right after I made this thread and felt a bit silly for not finding it first. Apparently the forum only keeps 4 pages worth of threads on display. Anyway, I was thinking the same thing you guys were thinking.

Here's what I think after the testing.

- Grounders seem to shoot through the infield too fast

This may or may not affect double plays, since bullets can leave infield before getting caught.

True, but I don't see many slow, bouncing grounders in the game, which could definitely increase double plays. Slow bouncing balls will (a) slow down the play and give the runners more time to advance, and (b) prove troublesome to mediocre fielders, who might not handle a bad hop. I'd like to see more infielders getting "eaten up" in The Show.

I'm a strong believer that the game will be much better and more fun if the player attributes are mapped to wider ranges in their on-field abilities. This is not just fielding (which as you mentioned is quite subtle though the difference is definitely there), but also for batting and pitching as well.

The wider dynamic ranges in abilities will also make it possible to create/simulate players with exceptional abilities. Right now, you cannot create players who perform exceptionally well in certain categories, like Greg Maddux, Barry Bonds, etc. A vast majority of players cluster around the average, even when some ratings are maxed or minimized.

I really agree with this as well. I remember someone here (perhaps it was you?) did some stat/ratings calibrations and determined that it's hard to create a hitter that can consistently hit, say, .320.

With four different levels of pro ball represented in the game, it's hard to differentiate them properly with the current spread.



I tried something recently that really confirms the idea that infielders in the game don't have to slow their momentum and set themselves (like they should). As you've probably noticed, you can throw the ball as soon as your player fields it, or you can wait for him to slow down and set himself before throwing (as in reality). When I tried letting their fielding animation play out, it really cut down on the double plays I was making. Perhaps the developers could do one of two things in the future: (a) make it so you can't throw until the contextual fielding animation has played out and the fielder has set himself to throw, or (b) punish early, unnatural throws by greatly increasing the chance of a throwing error. Of course, the same would need to apply to the AI.

I think the outfielding could use some tweaks as well, but perhaps that's another matter. Eh, since I've mentioned it, does anyone else feel that both the human and AI outfielders don't back each other up responsively enough? I see a lot of balls hit to right center and left center where the corner outfielder misses the catch, falls down, gets up and chases the ball back to the wall. In reality, wouldn't the center fielder get there pretty quickly to back him up? I tend to think of triples only happening on balls in the corner where the center fielder can't help out on. I get a triple every game it seems.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Let's Talk Infield Play (infielders and baserunners)

Great thread. Agreed on all fronts. Except, I do have one concern:

BABIP.

SCEA has drastically improved this series in this specific area since my first edition ('09). With 12' being no exception; the greatest. One of the main reasons I believe this year's version has cut down on cheapie infield hits...and unfortunately, increased GIDP's... is due to the sense of urgency added to the throwing animations.

If some of these suggestions (which are all great, by the way) are implemented next year, I just hope it's not at the expense of inflating BABIP.

Nothing irks me more than constantly getting hits that I do not deserve (IE, the animation where the infielder is running...leans over...bobbles the ball...NEVER ACTUALLY DIVES...and I get granted a base hit!!! Ugh!!!).

Though urgency throwing has improved for infield play, which undoubtedly has helped to raise GIDP's; I'd actually like to see urgency throwing increased in frequency next year (situationally), not lessened.

Example: I've seen dozens upon dozens of examples where I hit a decently paced grounder to the third base side of short, only for the CPU defender to finish his animation and barely MISS the runner at first. This should rarely happen (on the type of grounders I'm talking about).

I'd just hate for all these great ideas to get implemented into 13', only to see infield base hits become more of a regular occurrence. That said, SCEA has never stepped backwards with this franchise. In any area, ever.

Anyway, wonderful topic. I love talking about this kind of stuff. Just ask Nomo! LOL!

[nomo17k]

Re: Let's Talk Infield Play (infielders and baserunners)

Great thread. Agreed on all fronts. Except, I do have one concern:

BABIP.

SCEA has drastically improved this series in this specific area since my first edition ('09). With 12' being no exception; the greatest. One of the main reasons I believe this year's version has cut down on cheapie infield hits...and unfortunately, increased GIDP's... is due to the sense of urgency added to the throwing animations.

If some of these suggestions (which are all great, by the way) are implemented next year, I just hope it's not at the expense of inflating BABIP.

Nothing irks me more than constantly getting hits that I do not deserve (IE, the animation where the infielder is running...leans over...bobbles the ball...NEVER ACTUALLY DIVES...and I get granted a base hit!!! Ugh!!!).

Though urgency throwing has improved for infield play, which undoubtedly has helped to raise GIDP's; I'd actually like to see urgency throwing increased in frequency next year (situationally), not lessened.

Example: I've seen dozens upon dozens of examples where I hit a decently paced grounder to the third base side of short, only for the CPU defender to finish his animation and barely MISS the runner at first. This should rarely happen (on the type of grounders I'm talking about).

I'd just hate for all these great ideas to get implemented into 13', only to see infield base hits become more of a regular occurrence. That said, SCEA has never stepped backwards with this franchise. In any area, ever.

Anyway, wonderful topic. I love talking about this kind of stuff. Just ask Nomo! LOL!

I feel the infield hits to SS isn't an issue with the lack of throwing urgency. I do agree that with fast LH batter runner slow grounders to the side of SS often result in infield base hits, but I find this is an issue when the SS goes into that slow backhand catch animation (in which he always takes a couple steps back rather than charging forward). Most very very cheap infield hits when the batted balls stay around the plate (fielded by the pitcher or catcher) have been pretty much eliminated in MLB 12 I think.

BABIP can remain as is while DP getting reduced by making some plays a bit less perfect, so that the batter runner can beat the throw to 1B a bit more often... that shouldn't inflate BABIP since they'd be on 1B on a fielder's choice rather than a base hit.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Let's Talk Infield Play (infielders and baserunners)

I feel the infield hits to SS isn't an issue with the lack of throwing urgency. I do agree that with fast LH batter runner slow grounders to the side of SS often result in infield base hits, but I find this is an issue when the SS goes into that slow backhand catch animation (in which he always takes a couple steps back rather than charging forward).

I most definitely agree. Though, I think adding more throw urgency; specifically, logic that would breach the extended decelerate/set/throw animation, in this specific situation, would go a long way towards tidying infield play up.

Most very very cheap infield hits when the batted balls stay around the plate (fielded by the pitcher or catcher) have been pretty much eliminated in MLB 12 I think.

This is a perfect example of how 12' is vastly improved over 11', IMO.

BABIP can remain as is while DP getting reduced by making some plays a bit less perfect, so that the batter runner can beat the throw to 1B a bit more often... that shouldn't inflate BABIP since they'd be on 1B on a fielder's choice rather than a base hit.

Bingo. Well said, Nomo.

[Spanky]

Re: Let's Talk Infield Play (infielders and baserunners)

I agree with these points:

1. Too many balls hit hard right at infielders.

2. Throws are too fast.

3. Batters tend to be slow breaking out of the box.

This leads to a few too many double plays, and also results in too many batters being thrown out at first by a mile (not enough bang-bang plays).

It would be great if they could adjust this for MLB 13. But it's not a huge deal to me in the grand scheme of things because this game is simply fantastic.

One thing that strikes me with every game I play is just how close MLB the Show replicates real-life baseball. No other sports game I've played comes close to the Show in this respect (Madden, NBA 2k, NHL, FIFA).

[Jolly Roger]

Re: Let's Talk Infield Play (infielders and baserunners)

One thing that strikes me with every game I play is just how close MLB the Show replicates real-life baseball. No other sports game I've played comes close to the Show in this respect (Madden, NBA 2k, NHL, FIFA).

The reason I like to give a lot of constructive criticism to The Show is because they are so close to actually producing a perfect baseball video game. I don't even bother with EA titles because they're so off base.

I like that Heroes brought up BAPIP; I hadn't even thought about that. I think Nomo is right on about slowing throws and fielding down just enough to make throws at first a bit closer, because that will cut down the double plays while still allowing the batter to be thrown out on non-double play balls.



I had mentioned before that I felt outfielders were not backing each other up enough, but didn't have any concrete examples. Yesterday I hit a ball to the left field gap and the AI LF and CF went for the ball. However, the CF stumbled and missed the ball and the LF just stood there and watched while the CF got back up and chased the ball down, resulting in a triple for me. In reality, the LF wouldn't have hesitated to field the ball when the CF missed the play, which would have held it to a double. I'd like to see this issue improved on next year in order to cut down on doubles and triples (they're too high in my playing experience).

In general, I feel that pitching and hitting are pretty much spot on, and that fielding/throwing physics and logic is the last frontier for The Show to tackle.

[seanjeezy]

Re: Let's Talk Infield Play (infielders and baserunners)

Is the general consensus that the speed of the ball off the bat is too hot or that there are too many hard hit balls? Has anyone seen the ball speed overlay have a reading over 105 mph? I believe the hardest hit homreun this year had a exit speed of 122 mph, can you hit a ball that hard in the Show?

On a seperate note, I was playing a game last night where I hit a screamer in the six hole, but in less than a second the SS is able to take two steps to his right and catch the liner. Is something like this even remotely possible if the ball is traveling 90+ mph? I would think even the best major league shortstops would only have a step and maybe a dive, but two whole strides that cover almost ten feet in less than a second? This is with reaction and speed at 2 and power at 6 by the way.

[dbstanley74]

Re: Let's Talk Infield Play (infielders and baserunners)

I think I am ok with the middle infield animations but the crazy athletic plays that first basemen make in this game is just plain false. I have seen the likes of Paul Konerko, Prince Fielder, heck even Carlos Lee make diving backhand plays right down the line for outs. There is nothing worse than hitting a screaming liner down the first baseline with a lefty, and have some guy who normally has cement loafers on, make the play of the year.

Another is the 3rd base animation you get when your 3b takes a step and shortlegs a 3 hopper that gets through into left field. The CPU guy fields it standing up and you cannot even dive at it. It seems as if the animation built into the game defaults you into missing what I consider an average play at best. I have assisted fielding on but can usually dive with every other fielder on the diamond. Not sure what to think about it.

I see one of these two hack jobs every single game I play. I played 141 of 162 full schedule and am on the 12th game of season two.