Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

[RyanMoody21]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

One thing really jumped out at me, the most critical part of the ratings should be lack of bias. I've long been against one guy being a "ratings czar" because browse through any FF guide and you find 15 reputable writers with 15 very different per positon lists.

"Next, I looked at statistical reports and scouting reports for each and every lineman that I wasn't personally familiar with from my own playing days."

Now, I don't mean this personal. Clint got further than myself, and most likely any person in this thread. However, the guy played two games and rarely saw anything off a practice squad. I really don't know how he could have build fair representation of defensive players in that brief time.

Apart from that, I think the article confirms fears many of us had. Ratings we thought matter don't exactally impact the way we thought they should. Some ratings we thought mattered, don't exactally impact what we thought either.

In this case, I fear it's over simplified. Expecially with the long list of ratings that should lead to millions of player build combinations with dynamic differences between them.

Clearly, nobody is going to be right or wrong, no "best" answer on how to build players exists. However, I think we can all agree common sense needs to be the key ingredient and based on what I read, it's not.

[Bad_Intentions]

Would be nice to someone do a side by side by side of 3 players each with a 99 STR rating and a low PBK, Medium PBK, and High PBK rating against the same defensive lineman to see how they all look in relative to each other.

[KBLover]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

That's the thing, in 09 (I think) they implemented ratings on the fly based off of difficulty where the computer would adjust the ratings of the cpu players to make the game more difficult. I doubt the code was taken out so if this is still the case, then the actual ratings still mean nothing when the difficulty settings and sliders intervene.

Considering slider adjustments can bring out ratings changes more significantly, ratings don't "mean nothing".

Also, if it impacted things only on a video gamey level, not impacting the actual event probabilities as determined by ratings, then the difficulty is only impacting the video game portion.

Let's say the player I'm controlling has a 65% likelihood to complete a pass based on his MAC rating.

If I don't have "good enough" timing, that drops to 55%.

If I lower the difficulty to where the timing window is wide enough, I can still get the 65% his ratings say I should have.

If I need to be able to play like Jarodd to get 65%, I might as well not buy the game because I'm not that good, so I'll actually never will get the ratings influence. However, if I can lower the difficulty so that I can get the actual chance based on ratings then I'm not making ratings "mean nothing". If anything, I'm getting to express given my own video game skill.

[KBLover]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Is it possible that Run Block and Pass Block ratings affect whether a defender will be pulled into the blocking animation, after which the STR rating takes over?

It also seems to give the player the assignment to block and to "target" the best defender on the play.

For example, my rookie LG with 80 PBK got confused by a blitz. He couldn't "decide" whether to pick up the DT slanting towards the C or the LB coming towards the B-gap. By the time he "saw" that Wisniewski had the DT and knew to "target" the LB, the LB was past him.

Now if the LG had picked out the LB, the LB would have been picked up (pulled into an animation?), and the blitz would have been picked up, at least initially.

[Joobieo]

Nice to see that the stat actually matters .

[Phobia]

Awareness = Player picks this or that

then

Pass/Run block rating = success with block or whiff animation

then

Strength is how long a success block is held

That is how I understand it in a nut shell.

Lastly

Impact block = Drive vs being drove and amount of pancakes

[Phobia]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Why is everything based on lineman falling? Holding is rarely a lineman taking down the defensive lineman, yet that's all I see in Madden. Why can't they just make solid blocks, and not be all or nothing? Whether, it is running around the tackles, pancaking the defensive guy, or falling backwards due to holding, etc. Is the pancaking and holding due to pure strength? Is the defensive end running around the tackle due to lack of speed and awareness?

You sound like you didn't read what I wrote. Nothing I said is coinciding with what you wrote.

Strength will determine how long a block is held. Pass/Run block ratings will determine if the block is picked up or if the whiff animation is trigger, just like the tackle rating determines successful tackle or broken tackle, then the awareness will decide if the lineman makes the wrong read and misses blitz pick ups etc.

Now I'm only guessing impact rating will determine if a lineman pushes a defender backwards or if he gets drove backwards plus the higher the impact rating higher the chance of a pancake.

[Phobia]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Sorry, admittedly I was distracted by something else while typing it. So, to get rid of the whiff / pancake all or nothing animation, it's best to decrease impact blocking then? For less DE's running around OT's, we should increase all their awarenesses?

All good man

As far as pancakes that's how I'm taking it. Now I think the run/pass blocking ratings dictate the whiff animation or you can say win percentage so that would need to be upped to result in less whiffs. Now as far as DEs running around OT's I think up speed and awareness combined would be the solution.

[LBzrule]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

You sound like you didn't read what I wrote. Nothing I said is coinciding with what you wrote.

Strength will determine how long a block is held. Pass/Run block ratings will determine if the block is picked up or if the whiff animation is trigger, just like the tackle rating determines successful tackle or broken tackle, then the awareness will decide if the lineman makes the wrong read and misses blitz pick ups etc.

Now I'm only guessing impact rating will determine if a lineman pushes a defender backwards or if he gets drove backwards plus the higher the impact rating higher the chance of a pancake.

If the bolded is the case then how do you explain a 92 STR offensive tackle not holding a block for at least 1 second on a 65 STR CB? It doesn't compute. I do think there are some MAGIC plays in Madden that overshoot ratings which takes us back to Madden 10. That year everyone ran Strong Close out of their minds because the personnel did not matter on Off Tackle and the Toss. Those two plays dominated Madden 10 no matter which defender was there and no matter the TE. The case is clearly evident when you move out of that formation. In Madden 10 line up in a basic I form and watch the OLB always destroy the TE and stop the run in the backfield. EVERY PLAY. But then in strong close the OLB/DE is nowhere to be found.

[Phobia]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

If the bolded is the case then how do you explain a 92 STR offensive tackle not holding a block for at least 1 second on a 65 STR CB? It doesn't compute. I do think there are some MAGIC plays in Madden that overshoot ratings which takes us back to Madden 10. That year everyone ran Strong Close out of their minds because the personnel did not matter on Off Tackle and the Toss. Those two plays dominated Madden 10 no matter which defender was there and no matter the TE. The case is clearly evident when you move out of that formation. In Madden 10 line up in a basic I form and watch the OLB always destroy the TE and stop the run in the backfield. EVERY PLAY. But then in strong close the OLB/DE is nowhere to be found.

I know LB, but I'm just going by what this write up is stating. I mean logically speaking strength should not determine this but this is "supposedly" how it works. Now with that said, like everything with the ratings they never work as you would expect.

A running back for instance with 99 strength, 99 truck, 99 break, 99 elusive, etc etc vs cornerbacks in the game will get stood up, decleated, and just flat destroyed way more than you would expect with how the ratings "should" work.

So they are "supposed" to work a certain way but I think the 1 & 0s aka win & lose overrule logic far to often.

[LBzrule]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

I know LB, but I'm just going by what this write up is stating. I mean logically speaking strength should not determine this but this is "supposedly" how it works. Now with that said, like everything with the ratings they never work as you would expect.

A running back for instance with 99 strength, 99 truck, 99 break, 99 elusive, etc etc vs cornerbacks in the game will get stood up, decleated, and just flat destroyed way more than you would expect with how the ratings "should" work.

So they are "supposed" to work a certain way but I think the 1 & 0s aka win & lose overrule logic far to often.

So even if they do an entire series explaining the ratings it's still not going to explain and describe what we see

[Phobia]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

So even if they do an entire series explaining the ratings it's still not going to explain and describe what we see

Exactly! Sadly its the case.

I mean honestly speaking, does the truck rating seem to matter at all? I rarely see the truck matter. Speed is still the only true rating that is worth looking at. A 99 speed 99 acceleration RB with 61 strength 60 truck, 60 elusive and 60 carry is still better than a HB 82 speed 88 strength 90 truck 75 elusive 90 carry. Because even though the slower guy is better almost everywhere he will still only get 1-5 yards per carry like the speed guy but will be unable to pop those huge ones the speed guy will get. Power and elusiveness is still not correctly displayed on screen no matter the rating given. Watching a tiny CB decleat and stand up big backs like Trent Richardson happen play in and play out in madden. You can actually see a power back full speed, lower his shoulder and a tiny guy comes in and blows him up as if a stick of C4 were between them. Its pulls the mind out of the immersion instantly because of it.

[KingV2k3]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

So even if they do an entire series explaining the ratings it's still not going to explain and describe what we see

BINGO!

I've been following this thread with great interest, because frankly I'm kind of amazed that some of the "best and brightest" on this forum are operating under the assumption that the developers "intentions" are in line with the "result" for the end user...

What the rating team "intend" to have happen will ALSO, ultimately, be affected by the guys who develop the gameplay...

The gameplay guys have there own set of "intentions" that are also subject to end "results" that are unintended consequences of layered code...

As my LT / RT example illustrates, the ratings team isn't even aware of the "age old" mess that the gameplay guys created, which makes the OL / DL position assignments "backwards"...

There's been a lot of desire to get "confirmation" on everything from ratings to gameplay over the past couple years and:

1) (Based on the past decade plus) That's NOT likely to happen

2) Because: They don't KNOW how all of this stuff actually / really / really works...

The various departments DO know what THEY (seemingly alone) "intend", but once again, that's a far cry from the actual / on filed end result...

Every once in a great while, a "chestnut" like this blog pop up and folks hang on every word, but to me, it just confirms the disconnect between "intention" and result"...

Now, how about something they CAN affect...like that RT / LT mess, that should be an easy, attainable fix...

By coordinating the "intentions / results" of BOTH the ratings AND gameplay departments...and then they can let the commentary guys know that they're FINALLY on the same page...

[Phobia]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

BINGO!

I've been following this thread with great interest, because frankly I'm kind of amazed that some of the "best and brightest" on this forum are operating under the assumption that the developers "intentions" are in line with the "result" for the end user...

What the rating team "intend" to have happen will ALSO, ultimately, be affected by the guys who develop the gameplay...

The gameplay guys have there own set of "intentions" that are also subject to end "results" that are unintended consequences of layered code...

As my LT / RT example illustrates, the ratings team isn't even aware of the "age old" mess that the gameplay guys created, which makes the OL / DL position assignments "backwards"...

There's been a lot of desire to get "confirmation" on everything from ratings to gameplay over the past couple years and:

1) (Based on the past decade plus) That's NOT likely to happen

2) Because: They don't KNOW how all of this stuff actually / really / really works...

The various departments DO know what THEY (seemingly alone) "intend", but once again, that's a far cry from the actual / on filed end result...

Every once in a great while, a "chestnut" like this blog pop up and folks hang on every word, but to me, it just confirms the disconnect between "intention" and result"...

Now, how about something they CAN affect...like that RT / LT mess, that should be an easy, attainable fix...

By coordinating the "intentions / results" of BOTH the ratings AND gameplay departments...and then they can let the commentary guys know that they're FINALLY on the same page...

FANTASTIC post King!!!

A decade of layered code on top of code has rendered the gameplay & rating connection to be by far the biggest head scratching debacle.

Instead what we see each year is a "section" of code rewritten or modified to get new intended results, like the passing changes of this year. Because of how much layered code has been compounded on top one another going in and simply fixing how the ratings interact with the gameplay is a massive undertaking.

Honestly how the ratings interact with one another need to be greatly simplified. It should not take a degree from MIT to breakdown the logic of the ratings. Plus the interactions with the ratings is so interwoven if makes for a mess of randomness.

A simple explanation of what I mean is this.

Strength should mean just that pure strength. So a 350 pound offensive lineman with a 90 strength should completely man handle a 160 pound CB play in and play out. Just powering him back. Where the CB can turn the tides is his speed to get around him before the lineman can get a hand on him. Instead what we get is a 350lb lineman standing up patty caking a 160lb CB as if they hand fighting.



Quit making our NFL players into girly man-women.

Now where things get really complicated for the user is when you got to assess all these ratings together. Ok so he is a 80 awareness, 75 pass block, ohhhh but he is a 93 run block so he is a run blocker, but wait he is only a 79 in strength so he is weak, oh but wait he is a 90 in impact block so he must do something good right??? Then you are not only comparing all these different intangibles to how they apply in the game yet you are trying to decipher this among hundreds of players and who to start, who to draft, etc.

Strength should be just that, speed should be just that, pass block skill should be just that, block shed skill should correlate against their block skill, and on and on. Yet even with all this comparison it should be in a easy form to look at and process. Showing a DT ratings then see everything from his throw power to his kick accuracy is just flat out DUMB and wasted time and space for the user to see how the player "SHOULD" perform.

I personally think ratings are hard to turn into "on-field" actions and it appear realistic. Real players are not rated, it is speed, power, agility, and mental ability against one another. Of course you have the specific abilities such as throw strength and accuracy but most players are not defined in this manner.

A 6'2" big CB such as Browner with the Seahawks naturally has a better time being physical and jamming WRs because of his physical size. Yet in madden this has to be accomplished by adjusting 6 or so ratings just to "appear" as if it will affect how he players like this. His natural WEIGHT and STRENGTH should dictate how he will battle a WR against their WEIGHT and STRENGTH. Then once the jam is finished his SPEED, AGILITY, ACCELERATION, and AWARENESS should dictate how well he can cover the corner versus his same physical and mental skill set.

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My point is that all these ratings confuse things and do not reflect how players play naturally on the field. About the only rating I can see differently as a "subjective rating" would be something like "play maker" and have it give bonuses to the other abilities to mimic guys who are just naturally that superstar ability or that "IT factor" we hear about, someone like Polamalu, Suggs, Manning, etc. Isn't this how real players are challenged against one another?

[LBzrule]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

And Phobia, I would like to add, if I have a player with a specific trait, he should be performing with it WITHOUT me controlling him. I did a test on this last night with Haloti Ngata. I performed the Bull Rush several times when I controlled him. When I left him in the hands of the A.I. and controlled Ed Reed, Ellerbe or Lewis, he did NOTHING