Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

[LBzrule]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Plays do influence the AI, absolutely, and it does mess up ratings/abilities.

I think it might be why PRC is "the most important" defensive rating, because it can break the player out of this influence.

It goes back to the 'forced' nature of things to an extent. Some plays probably 'force' a certain start, which can disregard ratings. Some players (those with high PRC?) might not "go with the script" and they can blow up the whole play.

I think sliders mess with this, too. It can cause some "starts" to completely screw up, or it can make it go off without a hitch every time. That's part of why it can be hard to find a good balance. What you see might be because the team isn't running any of these kinds of plays...but the next time, the next team has a lot of them, and I wonder why Ray Lewis can get 15 tackles one game, then 4 the next - even replaying the same team.

By plays having MAGIC in them and overruling the ratings I'm actually referring to what's wrong with the game. When you look back at the short history of Strong Close, it did not matter what the defenders play recognition was, nobody was going to stop it. I remember vividly on this board Ian showing game play of the titans vs the Ravens and over and over again he ran Fk FB Dive HB Toss to CJ and getting major yards and I interjected, if Lewis and Reed have 99 PRC why does this keep happening? How are they getting fooled by the SAME play. Dig that thread up. I cannot remember what the response was at that point. It has nothing to do with ratings and everything to do with no football fundamentals being programmed into the game; and them always adding things on offense that the defense cannot stop or has to go head over heels trying to stop; and its still breaking away from that Tecmo Bowl perfect play match so my defense destroys your offense mentality.

I think you are giving them too much credit with the PRC rating in this regard. There offenses in the game that it doesn't matter what your defenders ratings are, the offensive formations put the defenders way out of position. Another formation that people have heavily abused over the last three years Snugs and Gun Snugs. It's because the defenders do not respond well to routes and runs out of it. So you have to make shift/micromanage a defense and take guys from doing what they do best to defend it. Another two year are Ace Close and Ace Pair Flex. You basically have to run 2 man rush/1 man rush F@G defense to deal with these formations. You certainly cannot stay with your basic rush defenses. They will get eaten alive with the quick passing and other routes from these formations. From what I recall you do not play online so this is something that you would not be aware of. Trust me it is a BIG OLE MESS when it comes to these things.

[simfballcritic]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Whats good Sim! I know we on the same level! Get at me when you get a chance, need to get my number from Smitty and holla at me.

No doubt man!

[Phobia]

I agree with you on several aspects and disagree with you also on others KB. For instance I agree there is some "technique" associated with playing the game but where I disagree is this being represented in a rating.

I fully believe players should be designed to work from the same standards players do in real life.

Physical
- How fast can he run
- How long to get to top speed from a stop
- How strong is his upper body
- How strong is his lower body
- How much does he weight
- How tall is he
- How much agility does he have
-

Mental
- How is his football IQ (seeing things happen before they do)
- How prone is he to making mistakes (committing penalties, missing blitz pick ups, forgetting his coverage, etc)
- How prone is he to off field mistakes (missing practice, getting in legal trouble, making bad decisions)
- How good is he at prereading plays (don't think in madden terms, think bigger. Like Ed Reed studying the steelers and their tendencies. Then seeing a play he knows is coming and jumping the route.

Difference makers
- How prone is he to taking off a play (not running full speed or taking part in entire play)
- How much leadership does he bring (boost players drive and awareness)

Etc etc etc

You get the gist of it. I believe physical measures should dictate how a player plays. Then boosts, abilities, characteristics, whatever you want to call them change and separate how each other functions.

I feel the entire rating system leads to subjectiveness and is why the game has such a split personality and does not represent players like their real life counter parts.

For the sake of example APF ability system made players feel different. Nba 2k13 has also gone this route and it has helped to a extent.

Maddens current route there is not that separation between players. I think a decade of using ratings has proved this needs to be updated with a new direction. In that decade span it has never worked were players feel like they are different "supposed" people. Instead it is another jersey with a different number and little difference.

New ideas, new ways to approach the short comings need to be discussed. INNOVATION needs to shine through again!!!!


Sent from da lil phone.

[SamoanSteelerFromAus]

Exactly, most of the game is a convoluted mess, imo. Not to bash too much but after not playing M13 for quite sometime or any video games, I was watching my gf's son playing NBA2k13 a few days ago. When it went to the Halftime Show/Report, I instantly just shook my head thinking of Madden again.

EA Tiburion has taken creating a solid NFL video game and made it out to be some unreachable goal. Making sports simulation video games is not rocket science considering other companies are and have done it. They actually refer to Donny Moore as the "ratings czar" but if I were him I would be ashamed to be associated with the rating system in Madden.

Real talk, everybody is not cut out to do everything and it seems many people working on Madden, aren't cut out to make a NFL video game. That said, I don't wish anyone out of a job and Lord knows I had to "fake it til I make it" before at jobs, so I understand. However, I hope the new consoles bring a better Madden and ultimately an end to the NFL exclusive license because I miss having a NFL video game that makes sense, which I can enjoy.

This happened to me. I've played football games all my life and sometimes the odd basketball game. Bought M13 and thought it was garbage for the many reasons you have already pointed out on this site.

Gave NBA2K13 a go and now I don't even know where my M13 copy is haha i think it's at someones house but I couldnt care less cause there is NO WAY i can go back to playing madden after playing 2K13.

The halftime show, the breaks at the quarters, the replays, the commentary, the stat overlays during the game, the all round presentation...EVERYTHING is done better by 2K and that's not even mentioning the gameplay.. Madden doesnt hold a candle to 2K and I am a much much bigger football fan than nba yet i have logged many hours into the my player mode which is how an "rpg type" sports mode should be and they didn't need to rave about their twitter feed cause obviously they had much more going then a scripted gimmick that EA hide their deficiencies behind.
The signature skills in 2K are brilliant. so many good ideas added every year.

Playing NBA isnt always a delight though, a lot of the times while i play I get depressed because I ponder how good an nfl game could be if Take 2 had a shot haha.

Madden should stop with trying to explain ratings because they are heavily flawed and animations have more of an impact in the game...animations that are very inferior to other sport games on this gen.
Scratch the engine and start a new or give up the license, its the only way we will get an adequate football game.

I play american football for real in Australia and nothing in madden immerses me in any type of realism or simulation i experience on the field. Nba 2K13 sends me to the local court to practice post moves because they are executed so well in that game, nuff said.

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Phobia's last comment on physics and mass representation as well as the ai abuse that lbz expounded on were basically the topics I was going to drill into but they said it well... if you play online, especially MUT where you can experience the best of the best (ratings wise) - you will see how abusive some of these players can be - abusive in the sense that they literally abuse the ai gimmicks.. it really demoralizes the integrity of the game. I'm not a fan of the 2k football experience but it did have it's perks. I never did hear about that community complaining about AI abuse but that is a prevalent topic amongst the madden community.

About the ratings and blocking specifically.. I would have to say I am not pro-EA RAatings.. Using the blocking schematics for instance, there is so much crammed into blocking:

1 Run/Pass Block
2 Run/Pass Block Footwork
3 Run/Pass Block Strength
4 Impact Block
5 Strength
6 Speed
7 Acceleration
8. False Start
9. Off Sides
10. Holding
* Wildcard / X-Factor - Mass

Phobia touched on this and I just wanted to elaborate that they do need the physics of mass and momentum to be accessible and tweaked so we can know for sure how mass is being played out in the game. Until that becomes a factor we are really settling for dust..

As it stands right now, you have a package of potential in your ability tab as well as a hidden talent in your penalty tab. Re: the blocking schematics, if you wanted to emphasize impact - you would give one side of the trenches an edge - say 35 false start vs 15 off sides because these two penalties basically control the trench fight. Now at 50:50 you get a standstill - where anything is 50/50 you get a standstilll. Not because it is 50:50 but because of how the ratings and effacy of ratings are weighed.

It is this weighing and balancing of the metrics that is so all or nothing and if this aspect is not mastered the game fails. When these guys lab the game they are clearly generating ratings which they need to and tailoring them as they see fit however they are failing to have the game represent the proper animations at the default 50/50 level.

They are seeing what GOES INTO the ratings in the lab work they do but in the final stage they basically set everything to 50's and package the game and send it out... they are not testing the final product and seeing what the game actually represents at the most neutered - I mean neutral level of gameplay.

If they truly tested and approved the finished product they would see the errors and nuances and that is where the weighing comes in. You need to weigh the final product to ensure that a 50 for run block gives you enough of a dynamic challenge for a 50 block shed that you will see the neccessary animations by Default.. the same goes for WR/DB animations.. it all needs to be tested and approved at the level of all 50's so the user doesn't have to create a sim product himself - it does say NFL on the license right?

If you don't get what I'm saying yet - just understand that the game does have the potential imbedded in it but it requires major tweaking and investigating and pulling and stretching.. it's a laborious engineer job to go in there and create a sim product from the ground up using scraps and pieces you have no effective manual on..

If the game did apply and distribute mass appropriately and momentum appropriately - we would feel the difference in how each WR runs a route, how a physical buff db feels versus a scrawny 'don't want no problems' db.. we would see lineman driving each-other back with force back and forth on a consistent basis.. we would have no hyperactive interest in creating a simulation of real life because it would already be represented..

For too long the game has been governed by speed and agility. Phobia is absolutely justified in his statements re: a brandon browner experience versus a deion anders experience.. Deion himself admitted he didn't like to hit - it was a 'business decision' - that's the authenticity of sports.. it's not always skill but sometimes Will and that willpower needs to be expressed through these players as well as their Power in general..

Fake it till you make it should be there motto .. I aint jumping on their pump fakes though.. I'm enjoying the game through my own tailored experience but justice will be served.

I won't get into how they should make their ratings system - that's all arbitrary - I just say, make it work - the animations will tell the story.

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Just alluding to what I said earlier concerning the cramming into a single ability. Here is more science on their passing technology.

http://www.madden-school.com/maddenalysis/

Some don't see the path of error in their programing and simply see it plain as print: THA = short, medium, long. done.

Nah, ain't nobody in their right mind going to say Vick is as accurate as Peyton! Give them a skills competition challenge. There is no GM or Scout who will scout Vick as being on the same level as Peyton in accuracy.

Before we get stuck on Passing though, take Catching for another example in theory.

You have Catching then you have:

Catch in Traffic
Spectacular Catch
Route Running
Release

You could even factor in Carrying - the ability to 'carry through a catch' into a football move.

If EA is going to divide their metrics, which they are, then they need to weigh them. This article above goes into detail on how the ratings are weighed. Everything has a different weight to it regardless of it's size.

In theory, this means, it is possible for a big empty box to weigh less than a small box containing a brick.

Not every rating in the rating system holds the same weight and this is what requires meticulous labbing - serious statistical engineering. Ea cannot with confidence speak on a single rating because their rating system lacks that type of integrity. In statistics, you deal with confidence which is basically the significance of a statistic - in this case, a metric or rating, be it player ability or penalty or variables such as subs, injuries, global game speed for min. speed threshold etc.

When you know how much one side weights than you can fairly balance the other side. This type of analysis is not completed in their lab work - it's clearly evident in the final product.

Because all these ratings are battling against one another - QBA versus INT's and Pass Reaction and Pass Rush etc - you naturally have a war zone with ammunition firing off in all directions and it can be a schizophrenic parade if you don't get a hold of it.

Everyone needs to play true to their self and true to the sport at that all 50's level. We understand that the game is designed for 5 minute and 6 minute QTRS for Online and as such the game has to simulate real life by using numbers that are higher than 'sim like' so as to create more chances in an effort to make up for time lost.

If we can understand the nature of that last paragraph, we can give them some leniency. BUT - that is only speaking to chance. Yes because it is online and not everyone can play 15 minute qtrs - not feasible nor plausible for matchmaking purposes and ranking but that doesn't mean Peyton should no longer play like Peyton and should be forced into situations. Nor should running backs who lack speed be exiled because they can't keep up in the six minute wind sprints of online play. Nahh.. that's what's gotta be changed it can't be used as an excuse. It's not a plausible one.

Peyton should play like Peyton out the box - regardless! AP should play like AP out the box REGARDLESS. And every player should stand a fighting chance regardless - these are pros and the sun shines on everyone - so does the rain.

If ratings were respected by default without any force or suction then we could all breath easy. If the interactions were not manipulated by outside forces and hidden mechanisms (LBz's rant) then we could all breathe easy.

Unfortunately, it is their very rating system and programming that is doing all this jockeying. You give every QB a rating but you also give them a penalty hit immediately to that rating which is 50% as well as to their ability by using a 50 across the board. So, when someone takes Peyton and makes the right decisions they can still succumb to failure because EA's hand in the pie decides that there should always be a 50/50 chance that any QB will throw a pick even if he makes the right read and has the appropriate accuracy however we will encourage users to overcome this hurdle by finding the latest and greatest exploits found in our playbooks! WTF?!

If physics and fatigue were truly represented we would immediately see the crazy zig zagging suffer. LB's zig zagging at the LOS non stop and then sharply blitzing through to hit the RB faster than you can hit a light switch - nah that would end up suffering too because that's, well.. not physically possible and defies all science of logic and gravity.. we are stuck to the ground by force and as such our bodies have limitations over them. These limitations need to be respected in the game at the most basic level. In NBA you will fatigue if you do this wacko running around job. If you don't, somethings wrong.. alot of tedious exploits and mishaps would be put to bed if player movements and player capabilities were simulated more artfully and not so outside the lines.

A player running frenetically behind the LOS should not be also capable of blitzing through a crowd of people and whilst maintaining his speed and not losing an ounce of pursuit. There needs to be more situations presented clearly observable where a player is 'out of the play'. I feel like its like telling a child, "ok, put down the glue.. put away the vacuum.. that's not what it's made for.."

EA needs to grow-up as a company and grow out of these childish ways of manufacturing what is supposed to be a simulated Pro. American football game. A sport players earn millions and ten millions of dollars to play. If they were as serious as AP was about recovering from his knee operation - they would surely overcome and calibrate a MVG (most valued game) of the Year.

[rootofalleli]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

If you don't get what I'm saying yet - just understand that the game does have the potential imbedded in it but it requires major tweaking and investigating and pulling and stretching.. it's a laborious engineer job to go in there and create a sim product from the ground up using scraps and pieces you have no effective manual on.

Some of what you're saying goes over my head, but I can get on board with this. I always feel like there could be a football game lurking somewhere in Madden. Usually someone around here comes up with a slider set that creates an experience I can live with.

But there's minimal effort from the other side - from EA - to support what we do. They don't explain anything in depth, they don't bother to adjust numbers once the game is out (loltuners!), and they don't have a long enough development cycle to do more than iron out the majority of hideous, game-killing bugs.

We say some bad stuff around here about the quality assurance work they do at EA, and I'm sure that if designers read it (slim chance!) they feel frustrated. The reality is that there must be some QA over there. But the short cycle and the need for new features to fuel the hype train mean that QA is devoted to catching really nasty crashes and glitches. I'm not talking about lousy coverage or suction blocking or psychic DBs - I'm talking about punts going down instead of up or linebackers warping 10 yards on every play or X-Boxes shutting down every time there's an interception. That's the level EA is operating on, and that's why we have the game we have, where any explanation at all is seen by them as a special treat and by us as a halfhearted joke.

[Phobia]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Great posts Hanz!

I agree with everything you are saying. It is a sad fact that the ratings are not "stretch" to the point of showing difference among the players. NOW lets not get it twisted, even if you lowered these to the point of max/min you still don't see enough of a disparity among players. The reason for this is like you said in your first post, it is always all are nothing, win or lose. There is never a "battle" among players and ratings. It is always one wins over the other, the other loses.

For instance lets look at the O-line since that is the point of this thread.

Strength as they say decides how long a block is held. Where block shed we can assume is the battler of strength. So what we have is this. The moment the DE and T engage in a block. Either Strength wins for X given of time, then at some point Block Shed wins and the block is released and the DE shoots past the lineman.

What we don't see is the two engage at the line then BATTLE for position from start to finish of the play. We all know the moment we hike the ball as the QB, our time in the pocket is determined by this "win/lose" situation. One play that 98 pro bowl tackle could hold his block for the duration of his 3 seconds in the pocket. The next play that same pro-bowl tackle loses instantly and the QB is sacked very fast.

This is partly to blame why we can't "feel" our time in the pocket. There is no gauge to what lineman are struggling against a particular defender. So we never have a clue how long we might have in the pocket, how might lose his block, etc. It is a bunch of randomness and hoping we get the 1 called for our lineman more often than that 0 (Binary code win/lose, on/off, all/nothing).

This same all are nothing approach is why we don't have a true pocket. How can a pocket close in around a QB if there is no pushing and shoving? Instead the defender is released and the QB goes down at the point of his drop back. There is no rhyme or reason to the madness. Pure luck, guess work, and mental fortitude to attempting to enjoy this madness of O-line/D-line interactions.

[KBLover]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

This same all are nothing approach is why we don't have a true pocket. How can a pocket close in around a QB if there is no pushing and shoving? Instead the defender is released and the QB goes down at the point of his drop back. There is no rhyme or reason to the madness. Pure luck, guess work, and mental fortitude to attempting to enjoy this madness of O-line/D-line interactions.

At the risk of being told that I don't get it, I have seen the pocket close in.

I believe it occurs when both the OL and DL "fail", much like in M12.

I've seen when the the CPU QB is still looking for somewhere to throw and the RE has pretty much reached the QB, but still engaged with the LT. Sometimes, this cause him to throw away, sometimes he'll look for other space in the pocket, stepping up and sometimes either running or somehow throwing beyond the line of scrimmage for the voiceless illegal forward pass call.

Since it happens very infrequently, I'm thinking it's the "double fail" scenario, much like in M12 where you didn't get the patty cake, 'stalemate' at the LoS, or the shove him down/quick 'engagement'. Otherwise, it's the usual stuff on both sides - being locked down for ages or under pressure in almost no time.

[LBzrule]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

This same all are nothing approach is why we don't have a true pocket. How can a pocket close in around a QB if there is no pushing and shoving? Instead the defender is released and the QB goes down at the point of his drop back. There is no rhyme or reason to the madness. Pure luck, guess work, and mental fortitude to attempting to enjoy this madness of O-line/D-line interactions.

It also contributes to the MAGIC plays I talked about. Look no further than 2 man under this year. Notice with 2 man under everyone gets a perfect bump and nobody gets beat. They also all take away the inside routes. Well from the way the ratings look you would think that you would have some variety on a play. Let's just take Marques Colston. He has a 99 route run and like a 99 release, but against 2 man under he cannot establish inside position. I would expect this guy to establish inside position on slants, Ins and anything going inside with those high release and route run ratings regardless of what the coverage is. But they program 2 man under to take away all inside routes regardless of your WR's ratings. I don't like it.

[bucky60]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

It also contributes to the MAGIC plays I talked about. Look no further than 2 man under this year. Notice with 2 man under everyone gets a perfect bump and nobody gets beat. They also all take away the inside routes. Well from the way the ratings look you would think that you would have some variety on a play. Let's just take Marques Colston. He has a 99 route run and like a 99 release, but against 2 man under he cannot establish inside position. I would expect this guy to establish inside position on slants, Ins and anything going inside with those high release and route run ratings regardless of what the coverage is. But they program 2 man under to take away all inside routes regardless of your WR's ratings. I don't like it.

Well, I don't want to see Colston always getting inside position. If a defense is called to take away inside position, even an average CB should be able to against Colston. Their really should be some statistical analysis done with actual NFL players to determine how often receivers or CB's win the fight over the inside position and use ratings values to make adjustments to it.

I'm guessing that your NOT saying it should always be a win for Colston so I guess I'm not sure if we are agreeing or not. I just want the outcomes to be as realistic as possible compared to what actually happens in the NFL while having the process to the outcome be as realistic as possible. That's why I like following these discussions even though I'm somewhat skeptical we will ever see it in Madden.

If I'm just way off from what you are actually discussing, then just disregard my post. Keep fighting the good fight guys!!!!!

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

It also contributes to the MAGIC plays I talked about. Look no further than 2 man under this year. Notice with 2 man under everyone gets a perfect bump and nobody gets beat. They also all take away the inside routes. Well from the way the ratings look you would think that you would have some variety on a play. Let's just take Marques Colston. He has a 99 route run and like a 99 release, but against 2 man under he cannot establish inside position. I would expect this guy to establish inside position on slants, Ins and anything going inside with those high release and route run ratings regardless of what the coverage is. But they program 2 man under to take away all inside routes regardless of your WR's ratings. I don't like it.

And once again this illustrates the lack of vision and understanding by their programmers. This was undoubtedly done on purpose, because of how easy it was to abuse slant routes in last year's game. So now, they basically said, "you can't throw a slant against man coverage". Kill the headache by cutting off the head. While I like some of the things they have done with respect to coverage this year, there is still no realistic balance in this game. The entire movement engine and player interaction in this game is horrendous. HORRENDOUS. I don't expect it to change at all next year either. One or two minor things will be "adjusted". I won't say "fixed" because we all know that will never be the case.

It's clear that Madden is held together like a house of cards. In 2 years, not a single tuner set has been released for the game. Embarrassing. If you adjust one single card, the entire house falls down. EA has a total calamity on their hands and without exclusivity would seriously find themselves in trouble with this crapfest.

[LBzrule]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Well, I don't want to see Colston always getting inside position. If a defense is called to take away inside position, even an average CB should be able to against Colston. Their really should be some statistical analysis done with actual NFL players to determine how often receivers or CB's win the fight over the inside position and use ratings values to make adjustments to it.

I'm guessing that your NOT saying it should always be a win for Colston so I guess I'm not sure if we are agreeing or not. I just want the outcomes to be as realistic as possible compared to what actually happens in the NFL while having the process to the outcome be as realistic as possible. That's why I like following these discussions even though I'm somewhat skeptical we will ever see it in Madden.

If I'm just way off from what you are actually discussing, then just disregard my post. Keep fighting the good fight guys!!!!!

Let me ask. If I put a guy at Offensive Tackle that's rated 60 overall, 60 pass block 65 pass block footwork, ehh let's give him 90 strength and you have DeMarcus Ware lined up across from him, would you want Ware to tear him a new one every time?

[LBzrule]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

The point here is that a WR's movement/route should not be determined by the defensive coverage. It should be determined by the individual match up in man to man coverage. Colston should not automatically get pushed to the outside just because the defense is running 2 man Under when his assignment is to get inside position. The individual match up has to have some impact here. This way people cannot use one coverage as a crutch like they do now. Everyone and their momma runs 2 man under as a crutch. I've literally played guys that stay in it all game even when you torch it. They just have so much faith that something will eventually happen for them out of this coverage because of the way it is programmed. This type of mentality needs to be eliminated and individual match ups need to factor in. I don't mind my WR not being able to establish inside position if the ratings indicate that, but if the ratings indicate otherwise then what's the point of the ratings if the play is going to cancel them out?

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

The point here is that a WR's movement/route should not be determined by the defensive coverage. It should be determined by the individual match up in man to man coverage. Colston should not automatically get pushed to the outside just because the defense is running 2 man Under when his assignment is to get inside position. The individual match up has to have some impact here. This way people cannot use one coverage as a crutch like they do now. Everyone and their momma runs 2 man under as a crutch. I've literally played guys that stay in it all game even when you torch it. They just have so much faith that something will eventually happen for them out of this coverage because of the way it is programmed. This type of mentality needs to be eliminated and individual match ups need to factor in. I don't mind my WR not being able to establish inside position if the ratings indicate that, but if the ratings indicate otherwise then what's the point of the ratings if the play is going to cancel them out?

Church...

This is one of the many things that makes APF so amazing. You can have 3 different corners. They could even all be gold corners. You call the same coverage with this corners on a given receiver, and you will see different technique and abilities for each one. This is football, and what puts a major emphasis on personnel. I find it incredibly frustrating to see JPP play the exact same way as Michael Johnson. We've discussed this ad-nauseum.