Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

[bucky60]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Let me ask. If I put a guy at Offensive Tackle that's rated 60 overall, 60 pass block 65 pass block footwork, ehh let's give him 90 strength and you have DeMarcus Ware lined up across from him, would you want Ware to tear him a new one every time?

That's not the same as a CB playing the slant and purposely trying to take away the inside. Also, a 60 rated LT isn't an average LT like I had the CB as average. I would expect a 60 LT would not even be on the field. But lets say that Ware ONLY goes to an outside move. I would expect if the LT was overly aggressive to counter the outside move he wouldn't get beat on every single play. Setting these conditions are the closest I can compare to a slant and a CB playing the inside for the slant. The outcome should be based off of some statistical norm (using real NFL data) with ratings making adjustments to that.

[westview33]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

All maddens ratings have been and still are pointless.

Here is what matters. Speed and awareness.

Positional ratings mean nothing if awareness is low.
Speed kills in the NFL but in madden it can win you games no matter how bad a player is rated in positional attributes

A safety with 40 man and zone still balls out in madden if he has 99 speed
Also a saftey with 99 man and zone cant cover anyone if his awareness is 40.

Id really like them to do something new with the awareness rating. It should have no effect on positional ratings and should be used as a knowledge of the game rating. Ex knowing down and distance and what routes to expect, knowing where the sideline is.

This is not true at all.

QB accuarcy ratings do matter in the game.

Catch ratings matter in my games and I've seen big stronger RB's fall forward for extra yards as opposed to smaller RB's in the game.

I'm saying all ratings work right but to come on here and say only two ratings matter obviously is just your own opinion.

I've also used sliders where IMO speed doesn't dominate the games either.

[LBzrule]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

That's not the same as a CB playing the slant and purposely trying to take away the inside. Also, a 60 rated LT isn't an average LT like I had the CB as average. I would expect a 60 LT would not even be on the field. But lets say that Ware ONLY goes to an outside move. I would expect if the LT was overly aggressive to counter the outside move he wouldn't get beat on every single play. Setting these conditions are the closest I can compare to a slant and a CB playing the inside for the slant. The outcome should be based off of some statistical norm (using real NFL data) with ratings making adjustments to that.

I'm not saying it is the same. What I'm highlighting is your expectation. In one instance you want the ratings to work in a certain way and you expect them to, in the other you do not?

[PGaither84]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

If I need to be able to play like Jarodd to get 65%, I might as well not buy the game because I'm not that good, so I'll actually never will get the ratings influence. However, if I can lower the difficulty so that I can get the actual chance based on ratings then I'm not making ratings "mean nothing". If anything, I'm getting to express given my own video game skill.

Well, on the default settings, you should be able to complete over 80% of your passes. I don't know about Madden 13, but in 11 and 12, Jarodd had his accuracy settings so low that anyone with less thna 90 accuracy couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Jarodd would even tell you that you MUST use L-Stick passing with his sliders.

I would use Alex Smith in Madden 11 an 12 and if I wanted to throw an out route to the left sideline, I had better press the L-Stick to the RIGHT otherwise the ball would sail wide out of bounds. To me, that was disgusting. I would drop back and try to hit a wide open 15 yard post and miss wildly. At the NFL level, even Tebow isn't that bad. In my opinion, the L-Stick passing is there to aim a pass, to lead it and throw your guy open when you need to... and when you have the QB who can make such a throw. In the NFL, rarely do you see a pass and think "Who was that thrown to?" Passes are deflected, dropped, just out of reach, tipped at the line and thrown away on a scramble.

To me it was kind of funny that I set up my sliders so that throwing the ball wouldn't be a crap shoot. I built a play book I liked, had a passing scheme I liked, made my reads pre-snap, read the safeties/coverage as I dropped back and would try my best to make the right throw as often as possible. That turned into my putting up crazy completion percentages with Alex Smith in the off season last year before Madden 13 came out. Then in real life Alex pretty much did the same thing. The only difference is that I wasn't afraid to pull the trigger down field as often.

QB accuracy sliders and real life QB accuracy/awareness has been an interesting topic to me for a while. With my current settings, I can do amazing with star QBs, do well with average QBs, and struggle with bums. I started a franchise for fun wita friend and Tom Brady [he was the pats] was lost for 4 weeks and then Ryan Mallet was lost for 7 weeks in the pre-season. So, he signed David Gerrard. I tried to play as Gerrard and it was abysmal. Just no consistency with the throws what so ever, and lots of drops. I think the throwing accuracy and "throws tight spiral" has an impact on the catch percentage as well. I saw a lot of drops from players who would catch the same passes from Tom.

[bucky60]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

I'm not saying it is the same. What I'm highlighting is your expectation. In one instance you want the ratings to work in a certain way and you expect them to, in the other you do not?

I'm saying I want ratings to matter but only within a statistical norm of how things happens in the NFL. If 85 rated always beats 75 rated no matter what offense or defense is called, then that's not a true representation of NFL realism.

Anyways, I'm not trying to argue against you. I give you much respect as I do others that put so much energy in still trying to fight for realism in Madden. I might leave this thread alone and just read instead of post.

Have a good one LBz!!!!!

[LBzrule]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

I'm saying I want ratings to matter but only within a statistical norm of how things happens in the NFL. If 85 rated always beats 75 rated no matter what offense or defense is called, then that's not a true representation of NFL realism.

Anyways, I'm not trying to argue against you. I give you much respect as I do others that put so much energy in still trying to fight for realism in Madden. I might leave this thread alone and just read instead of post.

Have a good one LBz!!!!!

Bucky, I hear ya. We're all just trying to work this thing out. I just played a friend and he was working on a new offense running 5 WR. I ran Quarters 2 Man Under with the MLB in a spy. He was pissed. Here were some of his comments. "How the F do you bump every guy on the field? There is no way you can tell me this is realistic dawg." "Aint no F 'ing body open WTF dude?" He threw five picks. He's not a slouch player. He'd actually be one of those guys most on here would avoid when it comes to online play and even he couldn't crack the almighty quarters 2 man under MLB spy. The play had my CB's on his WR's like flies on a fresh mound of dog poop. Where are the ratings EA? The only reason why I ran this is because I've faced it way too many times and I was thinking he'd have something for it, but he didn't. 2 Man Under = America's defense in Madden NFL 13.

[Phobia]

That's just silly LB, good job bringing this to light. To be honest I don't play online so I never came across kind of cheese. I play only offline so I'm oblivious to this kind of stuff.

Now with that said I will not refer to this as cheese. Reason being is EA designed it to work this way, so that does not classify this as cheese. Cheese is a exploit unintended that is found then abused. EA chose for it to work this way which equals horrible design decisions.

Shaking my head is all I can do


Sent from da lil phone.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Bucky, I hear ya. We're all just trying to work this thing out. I just played a friend and he was working on a new offense running 5 WR. I ran Quarters 2 Man Under with the MLB in a spy. He was pissed. Here were some of his comments. "How the F do you bump every guy on the field? There is no way you can tell me this is realistic dawg." "Aint no F 'ing body open WTF dude?" He threw five picks. He's not a slouch player. He'd actually be one of those guys most on here would avoid when it comes to online play and even he couldn't crack the almighty quarters 2 man under MLB spy. The play had my CB's on his WR's like flies on a fresh mound of dog poop. Where are the ratings EA? The only reason why I ran this is because I've faced it way too many times and I was thinking he'd have something for it, but he didn't. 2 Man Under = America's defense in Madden NFL 13.

You can also forget about the matchup issues. If a linebacker is on a WR, he'll cover him step for step. Total nonsense.

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

I been holding out but man gotta respond back.. alluding to what taz's signature and last comment say - just 'let the music play' EA.. EA's gotta stop programing the game with their hand in the pie so often and just let the ratings play out - let the play styles and variable chances play out and stop 'forcing' so many outcomes to play out.

LB also made a great point I want to allude to - do not cancel out the ratings when the ratings should be dictating the authenticity of each matchup!

And now, Phobia also made a point regarding the binary codes and all or nothing outcomes. If EA allowed the game to run more organically then we could 'trust' that JPP and Tuck are going to dominate us on the edges and so we naturally develop a strategy for that.. but we don't expect linval joseph or whoever their DT is to raid us up the middle.. so with a natural pocket being collapsed on the edge continuously we can use our o-line blocking strategy and flare the edges.. if this works accordingly we can then naturally move up in the pocket and force them to adjust or keep doing what they do - then we would face their secondary and the matchups in there.. there is win / lose matchups all over the field and that's why any team can win on any given sunday regardless of whats on paper but we gotta allow the game to just play and just let the ratings speak for themselves - don't interrupt them.

I love that last line so much I want to highlight it to EA, EA, "let the ratings speak for themselves and do not interrupt them"

If EA would not be doing so much toying and yes I think Phobia put this on my mind, he said, "they were adjusting to our complaints on slants and their method for curing the headache was cutting off the head" - so true my dude who said this, they are wayy too hands on with their approach and need to find more rational ways to deal with their conflicts facing the community.

Just let the music play EA - just let the game play while you're at it. I hope it's not too much but when I tune the synthesizer for my music or equalizer, I am not changing the lyrical content to the song am I? I just am changing my prefrence for how the music comes out and sometimes I want a more authentic experience and not a generic music template. So, When I'm listening to classic music, I want to use that classical preset. In the same way, Sim users should have a Sim preset like NBA does. Users in general should also have presets in general that tone the game to be more aggressive and conservative in certain areas like you would control the bass and treble in a musical preset with your equalizer.

The experience with the sliders should not be anymore dramatic than the above. We should know how bass and trebble are applied and we should know their effects respectively. Some people want to see more aggressive hits - let them experience that but don't change the language - that's too much power!

I don't think I need to go on at length about how the tuning should be done and how the gameplay should be represented but enough is enough - gotta get this together. I was reading what Phobia said about max/mins and I reviewed my ratings spreadsheet and I was just taken back again by how much goes in to one slider and then how much more that one ability such as pursuit or catching or throwing gets spread out amongst all these other sliders. They are truly spreading themselves too thin and still doing too much controlling over the pie.

In harmony, the penalty pie should be just that - penalty frequencies just as it states in the detailed description - increase this to change the frequency of this penalty being called. Okay, like music, if I change the frequency you damn right I am going to get a different station on the radio or a different experience through the song. Well, mean what you say and reveal that EA - If I have a Defensive Pass Interference Slider that can be raised to 100 and it says it adjusts the frequency then I should see this being called at 100 on EVERY PLAY! Or does that need to be explained to us too?? The hidden message in there? "Oh, DPI well.. that affects distance and separation between you and the receivers you see - we can't literally program the game to increase penalty calls.." but wait EA, if you raise holding to a hundred it really does increase the chances.. why are these two different?

[roadman]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

I been holding out but man gotta respond back.. alluding to what taz's signature and last comment say - just 'let the music play' EA.. EA's gotta stop programing the game with their hand in the pie so often and just let the ratings play out - let the play styles and variable chances play out and stop 'forcing' so many outcomes to play out.

LB also made a great point I want to allude to - do not cancel out the ratings when the ratings should be dictating the authenticity of each matchup!

And now, Phobia also made a point regarding the binary codes and all or nothing outcomes. If EA allowed the game to run more organically then we could 'trust' that JPP and Tuck are going to dominate us on the edges and so we naturally develop a strategy for that.. but we don't expect linval joseph or whoever their DT is to raid us up the middle.. so with a natural pocket being collapsed on the edge continuously we can use our o-line blocking strategy and flare the edges.. if this works accordingly we can then naturally move up in the pocket and force them to adjust or keep doing what they do - then we would face their secondary and the matchups in there.. there is win / lose matchups all over the field and that's why any team can win on any given sunday regardless of whats on paper but we gotta allow the game to just play and just let the ratings speak for themselves - don't interrupt them.

I love that last line so much I want to highlight it to EA, EA, "let the ratings speak for themselves and do not interrupt them"

If EA would not be doing so much toying and yes I think Phobia put this on my mind, he said, "they were adjusting to our complaints on slants and their method for curing the headache was cutting off the head" - so true my dude who said this, they are wayy too hands on with their approach and need to find more rational ways to deal with their conflicts facing the community.

Just let the music play EA - just let the game play while you're at it. I hope it's not too much but when I tune the synthesizer for my music or equalizer, I am not changing the lyrical content to the song am I? I just am changing my prefrence for how the music comes out and sometimes I want a more authentic experience and not a generic music template. So, When I'm listening to classic music, I want to use that classical preset. In the same way, Sim users should have a Sim preset like NBA does. Users in general should also have presets in general that tone the game to be more aggressive and conservative in certain areas like you would control the bass and treble in a musical preset with your equalizer.

The experience with the sliders should not be anymore dramatic than the above. We should know how bass and trebble are applied and we should know their effects respectively. Some people want to see more aggressive hits - let them experience that but don't change the language - that's too much power!

I don't think I need to go on at length about how the tuning should be done and how the gameplay should be represented but enough is enough - gotta get this together. I was reading what Phobia said about max/mins and I reviewed my ratings spreadsheet and I was just taken back again by how much goes in to one slider and then how much more that one ability such as pursuit or catching or throwing gets spread out amongst all these other sliders. They are truly spreading themselves too thin and still doing too much controlling over the pie.

In harmony, the penalty pie should be just that - penalty frequencies just as it states in the detailed description - increase this to change the frequency of this penalty being called. Okay, like music, if I change the frequency you damn right I am going to get a different station on the radio or a different experience through the song. Well, mean what you say and reveal that EA - If I have a Defensive Pass Interference Slider that can be raised to 100 and it says it adjusts the frequency then I should see this being called at 100 on EVERY PLAY! Or does that need to be explained to us too?? The hidden message in there? "Oh, DPI well.. that affects distance and separation between you and the receivers you see - we can't literally program the game to increase penalty calls.." but wait EA, if you raise holding to a hundred it really does increase the chances.. why are these two different?

Great posting going on here folks.

Hanz, we were told by Ian a few years back with regards to penalties, if the penalties were to increase, the games would become longer in length. The mentality a few years back was FIFA played a great game of soccer in 30 minutes, why can't Madden?

I only agree with Ian on one thing, more penalties called would prolong the game. My games take an 1hr and 15 minutes as it is, but my calling is stronger to have a more realistic game. So, first of all, if they did have a setting of sim football, including a realistic amount of penalties called, that is on me. That is my time. If I want a 1hr and 30 minutes of minutes of me time with my favorite hobby, then give it to me.

Secondly, they could bring back the in-game save. I've heard that is too costly to implement. Then why the heck did you take it out in the first place? To make it more costly to put back in down the road?

[Phobia]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Great posting going on here folks.

Hanz, we were told by Ian a few years back with regards to penalties, if the penalties were to increase, the games would become longer in length. The mentality a few years back was FIFA played a great game of soccer in 30 minutes, why can't Madden?

I only agree with Ian on one thing, more penalties called would prolong the game. My games take an 1hr and 15 minutes as it is, but my calling is stronger to have a more realistic game. So, first of all, if they did have a setting of sim football, including a realistic amount of penalties called, that is on me. That is my time. If I want a 1hr and 30 minutes of minutes of me time with my favorite hobby, then give it to me.

Secondly, they could bring back the in-game save. I've heard that is too costly to implement. Then why the heck did you take it out in the first place? To make it more costly to put back in down the road?

I hear what you are saying Road but lets think about this for one second.

If a current default EA game is 5 min quarters on default all pro, everything set to 50 for penalties and sliders. Game takes roughly 25 to 30 min depending how much running each team does. So lets add realistic penalties to that total just with the current game how it is, so we move up game time 5 MAYBE 10 min. A penalty takes roughly 45 sec to a min to show the ref walk out, give the call, the user accept or decline. So now the default casual crowd has a 35 to 40 min standard game. I see that change making no impact what so ever with the casual crowd.

Hell have a setting in the sliders like in NCAA 13

• Home Field Advantage - ON/OFF

Instead it would look like

• Real Penalty Amounts - ON/OFF

Now to further prove that the "realism" is not the issue all you need to do is look at MLB The Show, it is one of the top sports games. Fans love it, reviewers love it, and is revered as one of the pinnacles of sports gaming this generation. Why is that??? Its simple, it portrays the real game the closest of all the current sports games.

Now lets look at next in line considered for realism, NBA2k11-13. Top selling basketball game enough to basically cause NBA live to shut down or come with something that can compete.

Now we can all agree Madden & NCAA football can be a "fun" game to play. With that said, it is far from the caliber of these to titles. Now because of this you have guys who are NOT baseball fans, are NOT basketball fans, putting in 2 to 3 times the hours into these games compared to EA Football. Reason being is the package offers more of what we love about sports.

The issue I have with EA and why I want to get down to CD bad this year is I want to talk to them about how SPORTS in general are loved and watched for a reason. There is nothing they should be trying to do to "fun factor" it or "glam it up". Create a football experience that mimics the real game and how people watch it on TV, I can tell you what it will do. People will watch a college football game on TV, then go "Ohhhh crap I want to go re-live this game myself". Then they will run to their consoles and put themselves in that very game. You can attempt this very thing with the game now, but 2 min into the game you are quickly snapped out of immersion because of how "fake" the game plays. The moment you see a running back zig zagging all over the field at hyper speed you say


Now the issue is farther out than most would like to admit. EA Football has remained largely the same for about a decade now. Improvements have came, and graphics have gotten better, but for the most part we still have most of the flaws that were present back in Madden 2000 and if not more.

I would like to point you guys to a thread I created several months back, as a "idea" for a EA community manager to run across (This was succeeded on when Dewiel ran across the thread) and take back to some design members. Just something for everyone here to collaborate together and improve the Madden experience to a more realistic one. It does not have all the improvements this game needs but it would for sure bring us closer to where we want to be.

Check it out and spread the word.
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...real-life.html

[bucky60]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Check it out and spread the word.
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...real-life.html

I remember that thread. You even incorporated a couple of my franchise suggestions in that thread. That was another A+ thread that I wish EA/Tib would take very seriously.

[huskerwr38]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

The issue I have with EA and why I want to get down to CD bad this year is I want to talk to them about how SPORTS in general are loved and watched for a reason. There is nothing they should be trying to do to "fun factor" it or "glam it up". Create a football experience that mimics the real game and how people watch it on TV...[/URL]

Hit the nail on the head. Madden is trying to be bigger than the game itself. I've always thought that sports game designers have it easy compared to other game designers that have to create MMO's, FPS, etc.. Because sports devs don't actually have to be creative, JUST CREATE EXACTLY WHAT WE SEE ON TV. We don't want gimmicks, we don't want cannons going off when a WR catches a deep ball, we don't want Madden rings, we don't want Heisman mode, etc.. Follow exactly what you see when you attend the games live and what we see on gameday, that's it.

As far as franchise goes, just follow exactly what happens during the season and off-season, I never understood why Madden makes up it's own rules such as having to have a set number of RB and FB, etc. This is a head scratcher.

[bucky60]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Hit the nail on the head. Madden is trying to be bigger than the game itself. I've always thought that sports game designers have it easy compared to other game designers that have to create MMO's, FPS, etc.. Because sports devs don't actually have to be creative, JUST CREATE EXACTLY WHAT WE SEE ON TV. We don't want gimmicks, we don't want cannons going off when a WR catches a deep ball, we don't want Madden rings, we don't want Heisman mode, etc.. Follow exactly what you see when you attend the games live and what we see on gameday, that's it.

As far as franchise goes, just follow exactly what happens during the season and off-season, I never understood why Madden makes up it's own rules such as having to have a set number of RB and FB, etc. This is a head scratcher.

Please do this!!!!! No gimmicky XP, just follow what realistically happens in an NFL off season within reason. Replace XP with a real progression, scouting/evaluating, teaching, coaching, simulated practice, etc, etc, etc.

[roadman]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Phobs and Husker;

I feel it's not the developers/designers you need to send your message, it's getting in the ear of marketing and the suits above.

Developers/designers have all the ideas in the world and then, along comes the marketing and managerial higher-ups that put a kibosh on those ideas and "glam" it up.