Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

[LBzrule]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

This same all are nothing approach is why we don't have a true pocket. How can a pocket close in around a QB if there is no pushing and shoving? Instead the defender is released and the QB goes down at the point of his drop back. There is no rhyme or reason to the madness. Pure luck, guess work, and mental fortitude to attempting to enjoy this madness of O-line/D-line interactions.

It also contributes to the MAGIC plays I talked about. Look no further than 2 man under this year. Notice with 2 man under everyone gets a perfect bump and nobody gets beat. They also all take away the inside routes. Well from the way the ratings look you would think that you would have some variety on a play. Let's just take Marques Colston. He has a 99 route run and like a 99 release, but against 2 man under he cannot establish inside position. I would expect this guy to establish inside position on slants, Ins and anything going inside with those high release and route run ratings regardless of what the coverage is. But they program 2 man under to take away all inside routes regardless of your WR's ratings. I don't like it.

[bucky60]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

It also contributes to the MAGIC plays I talked about. Look no further than 2 man under this year. Notice with 2 man under everyone gets a perfect bump and nobody gets beat. They also all take away the inside routes. Well from the way the ratings look you would think that you would have some variety on a play. Let's just take Marques Colston. He has a 99 route run and like a 99 release, but against 2 man under he cannot establish inside position. I would expect this guy to establish inside position on slants, Ins and anything going inside with those high release and route run ratings regardless of what the coverage is. But they program 2 man under to take away all inside routes regardless of your WR's ratings. I don't like it.

Well, I don't want to see Colston always getting inside position. If a defense is called to take away inside position, even an average CB should be able to against Colston. Their really should be some statistical analysis done with actual NFL players to determine how often receivers or CB's win the fight over the inside position and use ratings values to make adjustments to it.

I'm guessing that your NOT saying it should always be a win for Colston so I guess I'm not sure if we are agreeing or not. I just want the outcomes to be as realistic as possible compared to what actually happens in the NFL while having the process to the outcome be as realistic as possible. That's why I like following these discussions even though I'm somewhat skeptical we will ever see it in Madden.

If I'm just way off from what you are actually discussing, then just disregard my post. Keep fighting the good fight guys!!!!!

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

It also contributes to the MAGIC plays I talked about. Look no further than 2 man under this year. Notice with 2 man under everyone gets a perfect bump and nobody gets beat. They also all take away the inside routes. Well from the way the ratings look you would think that you would have some variety on a play. Let's just take Marques Colston. He has a 99 route run and like a 99 release, but against 2 man under he cannot establish inside position. I would expect this guy to establish inside position on slants, Ins and anything going inside with those high release and route run ratings regardless of what the coverage is. But they program 2 man under to take away all inside routes regardless of your WR's ratings. I don't like it.

And once again this illustrates the lack of vision and understanding by their programmers. This was undoubtedly done on purpose, because of how easy it was to abuse slant routes in last year's game. So now, they basically said, "you can't throw a slant against man coverage". Kill the headache by cutting off the head. While I like some of the things they have done with respect to coverage this year, there is still no realistic balance in this game. The entire movement engine and player interaction in this game is horrendous. HORRENDOUS. I don't expect it to change at all next year either. One or two minor things will be "adjusted". I won't say "fixed" because we all know that will never be the case.

It's clear that Madden is held together like a house of cards. In 2 years, not a single tuner set has been released for the game. Embarrassing. If you adjust one single card, the entire house falls down. EA has a total calamity on their hands and without exclusivity would seriously find themselves in trouble with this crapfest.

[LBzrule]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Well, I don't want to see Colston always getting inside position. If a defense is called to take away inside position, even an average CB should be able to against Colston. Their really should be some statistical analysis done with actual NFL players to determine how often receivers or CB's win the fight over the inside position and use ratings values to make adjustments to it.

I'm guessing that your NOT saying it should always be a win for Colston so I guess I'm not sure if we are agreeing or not. I just want the outcomes to be as realistic as possible compared to what actually happens in the NFL while having the process to the outcome be as realistic as possible. That's why I like following these discussions even though I'm somewhat skeptical we will ever see it in Madden.

If I'm just way off from what you are actually discussing, then just disregard my post. Keep fighting the good fight guys!!!!!

Let me ask. If I put a guy at Offensive Tackle that's rated 60 overall, 60 pass block 65 pass block footwork, ehh let's give him 90 strength and you have DeMarcus Ware lined up across from him, would you want Ware to tear him a new one every time?

[LBzrule]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

The point here is that a WR's movement/route should not be determined by the defensive coverage. It should be determined by the individual match up in man to man coverage. Colston should not automatically get pushed to the outside just because the defense is running 2 man Under when his assignment is to get inside position. The individual match up has to have some impact here. This way people cannot use one coverage as a crutch like they do now. Everyone and their momma runs 2 man under as a crutch. I've literally played guys that stay in it all game even when you torch it. They just have so much faith that something will eventually happen for them out of this coverage because of the way it is programmed. This type of mentality needs to be eliminated and individual match ups need to factor in. I don't mind my WR not being able to establish inside position if the ratings indicate that, but if the ratings indicate otherwise then what's the point of the ratings if the play is going to cancel them out?

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

The point here is that a WR's movement/route should not be determined by the defensive coverage. It should be determined by the individual match up in man to man coverage. Colston should not automatically get pushed to the outside just because the defense is running 2 man Under when his assignment is to get inside position. The individual match up has to have some impact here. This way people cannot use one coverage as a crutch like they do now. Everyone and their momma runs 2 man under as a crutch. I've literally played guys that stay in it all game even when you torch it. They just have so much faith that something will eventually happen for them out of this coverage because of the way it is programmed. This type of mentality needs to be eliminated and individual match ups need to factor in. I don't mind my WR not being able to establish inside position if the ratings indicate that, but if the ratings indicate otherwise then what's the point of the ratings if the play is going to cancel them out?

Church...

This is one of the many things that makes APF so amazing. You can have 3 different corners. They could even all be gold corners. You call the same coverage with this corners on a given receiver, and you will see different technique and abilities for each one. This is football, and what puts a major emphasis on personnel. I find it incredibly frustrating to see JPP play the exact same way as Michael Johnson. We've discussed this ad-nauseum.

[bucky60]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Let me ask. If I put a guy at Offensive Tackle that's rated 60 overall, 60 pass block 65 pass block footwork, ehh let's give him 90 strength and you have DeMarcus Ware lined up across from him, would you want Ware to tear him a new one every time?

That's not the same as a CB playing the slant and purposely trying to take away the inside. Also, a 60 rated LT isn't an average LT like I had the CB as average. I would expect a 60 LT would not even be on the field. But lets say that Ware ONLY goes to an outside move. I would expect if the LT was overly aggressive to counter the outside move he wouldn't get beat on every single play. Setting these conditions are the closest I can compare to a slant and a CB playing the inside for the slant. The outcome should be based off of some statistical norm (using real NFL data) with ratings making adjustments to that.

[westview33]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

All maddens ratings have been and still are pointless.

Here is what matters. Speed and awareness.

Positional ratings mean nothing if awareness is low.
Speed kills in the NFL but in madden it can win you games no matter how bad a player is rated in positional attributes

A safety with 40 man and zone still balls out in madden if he has 99 speed
Also a saftey with 99 man and zone cant cover anyone if his awareness is 40.

Id really like them to do something new with the awareness rating. It should have no effect on positional ratings and should be used as a knowledge of the game rating. Ex knowing down and distance and what routes to expect, knowing where the sideline is.

This is not true at all.

QB accuarcy ratings do matter in the game.

Catch ratings matter in my games and I've seen big stronger RB's fall forward for extra yards as opposed to smaller RB's in the game.

I'm saying all ratings work right but to come on here and say only two ratings matter obviously is just your own opinion.

I've also used sliders where IMO speed doesn't dominate the games either.

[LBzrule]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

That's not the same as a CB playing the slant and purposely trying to take away the inside. Also, a 60 rated LT isn't an average LT like I had the CB as average. I would expect a 60 LT would not even be on the field. But lets say that Ware ONLY goes to an outside move. I would expect if the LT was overly aggressive to counter the outside move he wouldn't get beat on every single play. Setting these conditions are the closest I can compare to a slant and a CB playing the inside for the slant. The outcome should be based off of some statistical norm (using real NFL data) with ratings making adjustments to that.

I'm not saying it is the same. What I'm highlighting is your expectation. In one instance you want the ratings to work in a certain way and you expect them to, in the other you do not?

[PGaither84]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

If I need to be able to play like Jarodd to get 65%, I might as well not buy the game because I'm not that good, so I'll actually never will get the ratings influence. However, if I can lower the difficulty so that I can get the actual chance based on ratings then I'm not making ratings "mean nothing". If anything, I'm getting to express given my own video game skill.

Well, on the default settings, you should be able to complete over 80% of your passes. I don't know about Madden 13, but in 11 and 12, Jarodd had his accuracy settings so low that anyone with less thna 90 accuracy couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Jarodd would even tell you that you MUST use L-Stick passing with his sliders.

I would use Alex Smith in Madden 11 an 12 and if I wanted to throw an out route to the left sideline, I had better press the L-Stick to the RIGHT otherwise the ball would sail wide out of bounds. To me, that was disgusting. I would drop back and try to hit a wide open 15 yard post and miss wildly. At the NFL level, even Tebow isn't that bad. In my opinion, the L-Stick passing is there to aim a pass, to lead it and throw your guy open when you need to... and when you have the QB who can make such a throw. In the NFL, rarely do you see a pass and think "Who was that thrown to?" Passes are deflected, dropped, just out of reach, tipped at the line and thrown away on a scramble.

To me it was kind of funny that I set up my sliders so that throwing the ball wouldn't be a crap shoot. I built a play book I liked, had a passing scheme I liked, made my reads pre-snap, read the safeties/coverage as I dropped back and would try my best to make the right throw as often as possible. That turned into my putting up crazy completion percentages with Alex Smith in the off season last year before Madden 13 came out. Then in real life Alex pretty much did the same thing. The only difference is that I wasn't afraid to pull the trigger down field as often.

QB accuracy sliders and real life QB accuracy/awareness has been an interesting topic to me for a while. With my current settings, I can do amazing with star QBs, do well with average QBs, and struggle with bums. I started a franchise for fun wita friend and Tom Brady [he was the pats] was lost for 4 weeks and then Ryan Mallet was lost for 7 weeks in the pre-season. So, he signed David Gerrard. I tried to play as Gerrard and it was abysmal. Just no consistency with the throws what so ever, and lots of drops. I think the throwing accuracy and "throws tight spiral" has an impact on the catch percentage as well. I saw a lot of drops from players who would catch the same passes from Tom.

[bucky60]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

I'm not saying it is the same. What I'm highlighting is your expectation. In one instance you want the ratings to work in a certain way and you expect them to, in the other you do not?

I'm saying I want ratings to matter but only within a statistical norm of how things happens in the NFL. If 85 rated always beats 75 rated no matter what offense or defense is called, then that's not a true representation of NFL realism.

Anyways, I'm not trying to argue against you. I give you much respect as I do others that put so much energy in still trying to fight for realism in Madden. I might leave this thread alone and just read instead of post.

Have a good one LBz!!!!!

[LBzrule]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

I'm saying I want ratings to matter but only within a statistical norm of how things happens in the NFL. If 85 rated always beats 75 rated no matter what offense or defense is called, then that's not a true representation of NFL realism.

Anyways, I'm not trying to argue against you. I give you much respect as I do others that put so much energy in still trying to fight for realism in Madden. I might leave this thread alone and just read instead of post.

Have a good one LBz!!!!!

Bucky, I hear ya. We're all just trying to work this thing out. I just played a friend and he was working on a new offense running 5 WR. I ran Quarters 2 Man Under with the MLB in a spy. He was pissed. Here were some of his comments. "How the F do you bump every guy on the field? There is no way you can tell me this is realistic dawg." "Aint no F 'ing body open WTF dude?" He threw five picks. He's not a slouch player. He'd actually be one of those guys most on here would avoid when it comes to online play and even he couldn't crack the almighty quarters 2 man under MLB spy. The play had my CB's on his WR's like flies on a fresh mound of dog poop. Where are the ratings EA? The only reason why I ran this is because I've faced it way too many times and I was thinking he'd have something for it, but he didn't. 2 Man Under = America's defense in Madden NFL 13.

[Phobia]

That's just silly LB, good job bringing this to light. To be honest I don't play online so I never came across kind of cheese. I play only offline so I'm oblivious to this kind of stuff.

Now with that said I will not refer to this as cheese. Reason being is EA designed it to work this way, so that does not classify this as cheese. Cheese is a exploit unintended that is found then abused. EA chose for it to work this way which equals horrible design decisions.

Shaking my head is all I can do


Sent from da lil phone.

[at23steelers]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Im so glad Phobia is still here!! Dude, has posted really great posts. This is becoming frustrating because I feel this forum has proven to have more solid people than EA Tiburon does. I agree it's not cheese either, because it's how they meant for it to work. It's almost like a "money play" on defense. Now how about a money play vs. a money play. Maybe that's the strategy EA tries to implement in this game. If both people use the proper "EA tactics," then you might get a close simulation game. What Im trying to say is EA looks too much at the end result of plays instead of the "battle." Just because I got 4 yards in EA and could get 4 yards in APF 2K8, doesn't mean the battle to get there brings the same realism. I feel that EA bases their product too much on that. Win-lose battles (especially on Oline vs. Dline) produces an end-result realism they're hoping to obtain, but that battle itself, I don't think they could ever admit is realistic.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Bucky, I hear ya. We're all just trying to work this thing out. I just played a friend and he was working on a new offense running 5 WR. I ran Quarters 2 Man Under with the MLB in a spy. He was pissed. Here were some of his comments. "How the F do you bump every guy on the field? There is no way you can tell me this is realistic dawg." "Aint no F 'ing body open WTF dude?" He threw five picks. He's not a slouch player. He'd actually be one of those guys most on here would avoid when it comes to online play and even he couldn't crack the almighty quarters 2 man under MLB spy. The play had my CB's on his WR's like flies on a fresh mound of dog poop. Where are the ratings EA? The only reason why I ran this is because I've faced it way too many times and I was thinking he'd have something for it, but he didn't. 2 Man Under = America's defense in Madden NFL 13.

You can also forget about the matchup issues. If a linebacker is on a WR, he'll cover him step for step. Total nonsense.