Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

[Phobia]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

I remember that thread. You even incorporated a couple of my franchise suggestions in that thread. That was another A+ thread that I wish EA/Tib would take very seriously.

Dewiel did take notice and commented on it, so hopefully that means it gets passed to the correct hands. Granted it still has to be implemented and we all know logically it would take YEARS to implement all the stuff in that thread.

This is why EA really needs to take the loss and hire another team strictly working in the shadows creating a new game from scratch.

The current game & engines will never be able to represent the sport as it should be.

[Phobia]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Phobs and Husker;

I feel it's not the developers/designers you need to send your message, it's getting in the ear of marketing and the suits above.

Developers/designers have all the ideas in the world and then, along comes the marketing and managerial higher-ups that put a kibosh on those ideas and "glam" it up.

Very true, soooooo basically we will never get what we want and they will always be behind The Show and NBA 2k

[penquin11]

Re: Clint Oldenburg explains the "Strength" rating for offensivel linemen

So all it does is determine maintenance of the block, not the movement or push that a lineman can get...?

So a 99 STR LT vs a 30 STR DB is not going to push the DB around, just make it hard for the DB to get away?

STR certainly seems to impact pancakes...the top 2 pancakers on my OL are my monster of a LG (97 STR), and my equally menacing RG (95 STR). It's not even close. LG has 19, RG has 21. So if it's not STR that's doing it, what is?

And, yeah, King, the game play with the LT/RT is so backwards. It's insane. They have a guy who played and knows OL on staff and it's STILL backwards. Go figure, huh.

Impact blocking?

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Phobs and Husker;

I feel it's not the developers/designers you need to send your message, it's getting in the ear of marketing and the suits above.

Developers/designers have all the ideas in the world and then, along comes the marketing and managerial higher-ups that put a kibosh on those ideas and "glam" it up.

I disagree. There is plenty of football in the game that does not work properly at all and has nothing to do with marketing. Player movement and interaction, synchronous animations, bad ball physics, terrible AI, line interaction, throwing animations, catching animations, botched wind meter, lineman not using their pass rush moves unless user controlled, lack of presentation, terrible commentary, challenge system, bugs galore in CCM, crappy passing system...

This is an endless list that is all on the implementation. You put too much of this on the marketing and "suits". While there are many things that may not get into the game due to those entities (which I agree with you on), the things that ARE in the game are implemented poorly. The developers are not good there. There may be a handful of guys who are, but collectively, this is a terribly performing team and there is no way around that.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Hit the nail on the head. Madden is trying to be bigger than the game itself. I've always thought that sports game designers have it easy compared to other game designers that have to create MMO's, FPS, etc.. Because sports devs don't actually have to be creative, JUST CREATE EXACTLY WHAT WE SEE ON TV. We don't want gimmicks, we don't want cannons going off when a WR catches a deep ball, we don't want Madden rings, we don't want Heisman mode, etc.. Follow exactly what you see when you attend the games live and what we see on gameday, that's it.

As far as franchise goes, just follow exactly what happens during the season and off-season, I never understood why Madden makes up it's own rules such as having to have a set number of RB and FB, etc. This is a head scratcher.

This certainly sounds familiar! Big Fn Deal and I monopolized a thread many months ago discussing this very thing. Big and I really pushed for them to simply use the blueprint that is the REAL NFL, instead of inventing their own football. They do this with presentation too. Let's examine the games that blow our mind with realism currently. The Show, NBA 2k and FIFA. What do all three of those games have in common? They have not "invented" some sort of fake entity like "throw your receiver open" crap. they have simply replicated what we actually see in real life! NFL 2k5 was such an incredible game at that time because 2k simply replicated what was on television. Not what THEY thought it should be. This is where it comes down to talent. The Madden team is BY FAR the least talented group of developers in all of sports gaming. By a mile.

[bcruise]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

I noticed the guy's blog has only one comment on it. Somehow I doubt we're going to see any more explanations like this if he thinks that nobody cares....

[roadman]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

I disagree. There is plenty of football in the game that does not work properly at all and has nothing to do with marketing. Player movement and interaction, synchronous animations, bad ball physics, terrible AI, line interaction, throwing animations, catching animations, botched wind meter, lineman not using their pass rush moves unless user controlled, lack of presentation, terrible commentary, challenge system, bugs galore in CCM, crappy passing system...

This is an endless list that is all on the implementation. You put too much of this on the marketing and "suits". While there are many things that may not get into the game due to those entities (which I agree with you on), the things that ARE in the game are implemented poorly. The developers are not good there. There may be a handful of guys who are, but collectively, this is a terribly performing team and there is no way around that.

I agree on the above, but I think we could go back to the programmers too. I think you have mentioned in the past the programmers don't seem to know how to program.

If you put programmers on that team, I agree. lol

[KingV2k3]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Great posting going on here folks.

Hanz, we were told by Ian a few years back with regards to penalties, if the penalties were to increase, the games would become longer in length. The mentality a few years back was FIFA played a great game of soccer in 30 minutes, why can't Madden?

I only agree with Ian on one thing, more penalties called would prolong the game. My games take an 1hr and 15 minutes as it is, but my calling is stronger to have a more realistic game. So, first of all, if they did have a setting of sim football, including a realistic amount of penalties called, that is on me. That is my time. If I want a 1hr and 30 minutes of minutes of me time with my favorite hobby, then give it to me.

Secondly, they could bring back the in-game save. I've heard that is too costly to implement. Then why the heck did you take it out in the first place? To make it more costly to put back in down the road?

I play 15 minute quarters / let pretty much ALL cut scenes play / watch a fair amount of relays / fiddle with lineups before almost every O series...

So:

My game take between 2 and 2.5 HOURS to play...

I know that's not for everyone, so I can only go back ONCE AGAIN to Ian's "mantra" for the past couple cycles (previous to this one) about CUSTOMIZATION...

Like Phobia wrote re: penalties:

Toggle On / Off for "Sim"

I don't see them building this game from the "ground up" anytime soon, so nothing regarding the "core" gameplay issues CAN OR WILL change...

So:

PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE just give us all removed customization options back / and add a few if at all possible...

I don't rely on the game for much...just give me some basic stuff and a crapload of customization options and I (with the help of this forum) can and will continue to beat the "best possible" football game out of this thing...

Realistically, I think that's ALL we can really expect or hope for...

IMHO



Great thread(s) / posts tho...once again proves why I put my "trust" in what goes on over here to influence whatever they will allow us to...

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

@ ROd, I hope you are not missing the pt on penalties by being focused on the game being prolonged albeit that is in fact a short sighted issue. Penalties are enforced to enforce discipline. A lack of discipline and attention to detail will cause your team to incur more penalties. Penalties are there for you to respect the rules. It is a eisk reward battle. I will allude to the aggressive vs conservative playcalling strategies in ncaa and how they bare risk reward consequences in penalties ans abilities. The game cant be partial in its respect to rules. In reality, there is a bulk of responsibility a team / user can control w/in penalties - its part of your coaching philoSophy and i dont think we need to go at length on that virtue or art of war.

By thinking rules need to be controlled and toned down is moreso the adopted mindset of babysitting that Ea does. We dont need a baby monitor. We need the rules enforced appropriately so as to have an opponent adjust appropriately, period

To look at the realistic rate of penalties in the nfl with apprehension in a video game is not rational. This is a blind reading into how penalties are generated. We/I am not requesting penalties to be randomized just to satisfy and appease the NFL numbers - no. The penalties need to be generated appropriately though and a user has within his control to play up to his team's awareness and discipline using his own discretion for aggressive and conservative tendencies. The more aggressive you play the more you run the risk of fatigue and failure. That's the risk reward spectrum that is an instrumental facet of any game or battle.

In a war, if you sail or take flight there are variable forces you have to be careful of. In the same light, there need to be variable penalty forces that give the game structure that ensure a player always proceed with a measure of caution and if he does not then he runs the risk of plundering his plans. But most people who proceed like this often don't have plans anyways - which is like the general population of online gamers who cheese to win or use refined exploits such as the 2 man under that LB was speaking on.

In example: the more you audible and fake hike at the line the more you should be exposed to the risk of a false start being committed. That is all.. that is within user control. The more you play aggressive tight coverage upfield themore you run the risk of a pass interference. The more you aggressive user catch the more you run the risk of pass interference. That's all.. no need to look at this approach with apprehnsion that that game will be prolonged - you're diminishing user thought and control with this mindset.

[roadman]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

@ ROd, I hope you are not missing the pt on penalties by being focused on the game bwibgbpeolonged albeit that is in fact a short sighted issue. Penalties arw wnforced to enfoece discipline. A lack of diacipline and attention to detail will cause yoyr team to incur more penalties. Penalties are there for you to respect thw rules. It is a eisk reward battle. I will allude to the agg vs cons playcalling stratts in ncaa andbhow they bare risk reward consequences in penalties ans abilities. The game cant be partial in its respect to rules. In reality, there is a bulk of responaibility a team / user can control win penalties - ita part of your coaching philoSophy and i dont think we need to go at lwngrh on that virtue or aet of war. By thinking rules newd to be controlled and toned down is morwso the adopted minsaetof babysitting that ea does. We dont need a baby monitor. We need the rulea enfoeced appropriaptely so as to have an opponent adjust appropriately, period

I get the your message, but it's difficult to read and sort through.

And based on your edits, my main point was to relay what a developers thoughts were a few years ago on the subject of making sure penalties work within the confine of the sliders and game itself.

I don't share those same sentiments.

[KBLover]

Re: Clint Oldenburg explains the "Strength" rating for offensivel linemen

Impact blocking?

Nope - my RG, who led the team, has 87 IBL - nothing "special". That's the same as Wisniewski and Otah, and basically Veldheer (85).

[KBLover]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

You can also forget about the matchup issues. If a linebacker is on a WR, he'll cover him step for step. Total nonsense.

I keep reading this.

Yet, if I put Rolando McClain on a WR, the WR is so open it's stupid. Tevin Ash and his 25 MCV is like...what zip code are you in, Tevin? The WR is <--------------that way.

Heck, McClain can't cover a TE that well most of the time. The only LB I have that can is a draftee with 85 MCV - and he's going to get left behind by a WR (not enough SPD and AGI unless the WR has trash RTE).

I have TRIED to do this intentionally just so I can see it - but it never works. Just like people say SPD is all you need at WR. Yet, as the Raiders, Ford is crap (when he's not hurt), DHB I traded ASAP (and laughed as he dropped like 10 passes in the three games I faced Denver, who got him somehow). If the "SPD only" paradigm worked, the Raiders would be the perfect team - yet, I have slower...and better... WR. Moore is the only one I have that's strong - and he has much more than SPD going for him.

Is this another issue mainly about online?

[KBLover]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

I would use Alex Smith in Madden 11 an 12 and if I wanted to throw an out route to the left sideline, I had better press the L-Stick to the RIGHT otherwise the ball would sail wide out of bounds. To me, that was disgusting. I would drop back and try to hit a wide open 15 yard post and miss wildly. At the NFL level, even Tebow isn't that bad. In my opinion, the L-Stick passing is there to aim a pass, to lead it and throw your guy open when you need to... and when you have the QB who can make such a throw. In the NFL, rarely do you see a pass and think "Who was that thrown to?" Passes are deflected, dropped, just out of reach, tipped at the line and thrown away on a scramble.

Completely agree. Only way I want to use the L-stick. Throwing a guy open or placing the ball away from the defenders coming in/sitting in the window.

QB accuracy sliders and real life QB accuracy/awareness has been an interesting topic to me for a while. With my current settings, I can do amazing with star QBs, do well with average QBs, and struggle with bums. I started a franchise for fun wita friend and Tom Brady [he was the pats] was lost for 4 weeks and then Ryan Mallet was lost for 7 weeks in the pre-season. So, he signed David Gerrard. I tried to play as Gerrard and it was abysmal. Just no consistency with the throws what so ever, and lots of drops. I think the throwing accuracy and "throws tight spiral" has an impact on the catch percentage as well. I saw a lot of drops from players who would catch the same passes from Tom.

It does. Terrelle Pryor this year for me was the same way. He'd get so many drops, but then he gets hurt - I pick up McCoy on the urging of some of the folks reading my dynasty - and suddenly, I can hit short passes. McCoy's SAC is a few points higher (82 vs 77) but I think it is that Tight Spiral (Pryor: No, McCoy: Yes) that made the difference.

I notice McCoy is also smarter about placing the ball even if I don't use the L-stick. Wonder if that's an impact of "Force Passes"? He'll throw OOB near a WR if he's covered as well. Pryor would try to gun it in there.

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Thanks Road - I revised the post.

@ KB, aren't you using your own tailored set to get the results you're getting? That would make your findings arbitrary since it's not the default all 50/50 online matchmaking setup which is what LBz was telling you about: that you have not faced that fire so you wouldn't know what it's like to be burned Onilne with their all 50 set and how finicky it can be.

I think we all know the potential of the game within the slider modifications that can be made there. At ground level though that is where we want to see immediate changes - I think that's the main gripe we're expressing within this thread is how the game is packaged by default. By default we should essentialy get a professional football game that simulates what occurs in real life, authentically and respectfully.

[KBLover]

Re: Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

Thanks Road - I revised the post.

@ KB, aren't you using your own tailored set to get the results you're getting? That would make your findings arbitrary since it's not the default all 50/50 online matchmaking setup which is what LBz was telling you about: that you have not faced that fire so you wouldn't know what it's like to be burned Onilne with their all 50 set and how finicky it can be.

I think we all know the potential of the game within the slider modifications that can be made there. At ground level though that is where we want to see immediate changes - I think that's the main gripe we're expressing within this thread is how the game is packaged by default. By default we should essentialy get a professional football game that simulates what occurs in real life, authentically and respectfully.

I'm still working within the confines of the game's poor programming. It's less that even a decent mod job on a PC game, imo, where you could do some reprogramming, write some AI scripts, etc.

I agree that out of the box, stuff should work like real football. I just don't think all of what's there is completely useless. Needs heavy editing, yes, but I don't necessarily think the whole paper should be burned and re-written. Wouldn't shed a tear if it was - I'd be eager to see the new concepts, but I won't shed a tear if it isn't. Only if it's the same paper with no meaningful editing done.

But, I get it. I'll just go back to my corner and keep quiet.