I understand that these things are essential for representing football but I am asking a more specific question in relation to Madden. Seeing as it's unlikely we will see all the major changes needed in Madden this year, these two seem like a good guess for what they will try to get to for M25. So what and how big an impact do you think these two things can have on Madden, even if other issues go unaddressed? Another way of wording the question is, how improved would M13 be overall if the OL/DL play and player movement were fixed?
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Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?
Would be very big for me, its the foundation or the heart and soul of football. -
Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?
Big F'n, a SUCCESSFUL re-write to both player movement and OL/DL would mean everything to this series. First off, no game can have good gameplay if the fundamental way the players move is wrong. Maddens locomotion has gone from bad M06-M10, to worse M11-M13. The amazing thing is, EA has the best locomotion of any sports game available with FIFA. Why cant they take that player movement model and add it to Madden? Also, the EA NHL game just did a great job adding momentum and acceleration/de-celeration into their series. Madden needs to combine these two models and completely overhaul player movement. They also need to fix the sprint button, as well as upgrade all ball carrier moves. (This needs to include QB pocket movement as well.
Now, where locomotion is the #1 fundamental issue of any game, OL//DL is where the game of football is built from. This area of the game has been neglected by EA for far to long. They need to add HUNDREDS of new animations for both DL and OL. They need to completely re-write DL moves and make it functional and fun. They need to allow for PUSH from both O-Lineman and D-Lineman. They have to go away from players locking together and having a win animation occur from one or the other, their needs to be PUSH. (Ratings need to dictate this)
Lastly, please make the DE's or blitzing OLB's get up the field on passing plays. APF did a phenomenal job with this and it just cannot be that hard to implement...
My .02Comment
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Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?
Once, these area's are overhauled and the "physics" engine is cleaned up and functional. The next two big areas of gamelplay that need an overhaul are..
1. Realistic AI
2. WR/DB interactions (Overhual to locomotion would fix half of this, adding new animations and a jostling system, like FIFA, would make it great)
3. Ball Physics (Every sports game on the market has reasonable ball physics, in Madden football the ball is like a magnet. It looks horrible and hurts the gameplay)Comment
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Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?
Big I don't know if the actual on-the-field results will mean as much to the hard core Maddenite as just the effort itself will. To know that a)EA is listening, and b)they are actively trying take Madden to another level among sports titles would keep many long timers around as opposed to giving up on the franchise.
Madden may need many coding improvements but EA needs a philosophical one. Evidence of that change would mean a lot to the community. A move away from fluff "new innovative features" and towards improving the meat and bones core game play would be a huge step.GT EarAssassin
Originally posted by ggsimmondsComment
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Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?
What I am about to post is not intended to offend anyone, just pointing something out. I keep asking for specifics on how fixed OL/DL play and player movement would change how you play Madden but people keep posting about a litany of other stuff. I don't disagree with that other stuff but it's not what I am hoping to discuss in this particular thread. Maybe this type of thing happens more than what I realized before recently having a discussion about this same thing on another site. It is something I need to check myself on as well to be careful not to drag my venting about all the ills of Madden into other threads. Note taken to self.
On topic, for example, I think fixing player movement could limit User control overriding in some instances, like for just putting any high SPD player in the backfield or at return to zig-zag past would-be tacklers or having a Safety walk up to the LOS yet still able to get back easily in deep coverage. OL/DL play could make it more difficult to drop an obscene amount of defenders into coverage because running the ball would be more fundamentally sound, as well as offenses not being so free to ad lib with the a User controlled runner on run plays because the blockers will be adhering to the play art.
These are the type of things I am hoping to see expressed and discussed ITT.Comment
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Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?
I only played the demo version of Madden 13 (which I hated). I think we need to add blocking backs to this equation. What upgrading the ol/dl interaction means to me is
1. having double teams/chip blocks on passing downs (people claim these things were in before but I've never seen them or in the trial).
2. better feel for the run game as you have a real idea of which linemen are winning their battle upfront, better pass rushing moves and combos (e.g. spin + rip; I think someone claimed this was in but again it wasn't in previous versions and I didn't see it in the demo).
3. more options for the dl (e.g. tiered play calling), specific run block shedding moves/techniques (although I suppose rip works just as well).
4. pulling linemen and fb aren't as dumb and will block who they are supposed to. What we get now are linemen/fb that move to one side of the field and act like they are going to block one defender, then for some reason try to block another which causes the linemen/fb to attempt a change in direction which they can't recover in time to block any defender at all.
5. pass blocking tied to drop back of qb. This is actually better than it was in say Madden 08 where the guards would drop back further than the qb on slants.
6. Stunts that work.
eta:
7. Combat cheesing (I've never seen this personally but I've heard of people dropping back 9 and still getting pressure because the ol doesn't block the remaining 2.)
There are probably more areas of concern but these are the ones that immediately come to mind.Last edited by raguel; 03-02-2013, 09:18 PM.Comment
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Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?
To be honest, I just can't get myself to enjoy Madden, and alot of it has to do with the two issues you mentioned. What I would like to see addressed:
1. Pulls and traps. This is the biggest one IMO. I love to run the ball out of 21 and 22 personnel in Madden, but Power, for example, isn't executed like it's supposed to be. The end should be unblocked, with either the pulling guard kicking him out and the fullback leading up, or vice versa. Madden's Power play has the tight end block the end, and the guard and fullback block space. This is the most important play in a power running game and it's execution is laughable in Madden.
2. Pass protection. I played center in college. I've never gone to the line of scrimmage and snapped the ball without calling out some sort of protection. Madden has some sort of slide protection in there, but slide protection in real football is still somewhat of a man-on-man concept (i.e. slide right would be RG/RT on LE/LOLB). In the game, I call slide right, the LOLB blitzes, but there's no trade-off or teamwork between the RG and RT. The AI of the OL needs SERIOUS work. Hopefully the NFL OL they have working can fix this.
3. DL assignments. One example is that some DT's, especially in a 3-4, are taught to go to the ground when they're being double teamed, in order to occupy the blockers. This needs to be included as a pre-snap option. It's crazy that you can change coverages before the snap, but not DL technique?
These are just a few examples of what I believe needs to be addressed. I'm sure there's a lot more than I can think of right now. From the outside, it looks as if they don't have people who played football working on the gameplay.Comment
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Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?
I've heard from multiple "insiders" that EA basically thinks that 2k used entire mo caps for the line. So while it might look more realistic, the user lacked more control than maybe it appered.
With that logic, the shorter and "choppier" Madden animations could mean EA offers more control.
I'm actually willing to accept this to an certian degree. However, with the extreme limited animations has Madden is way to limited in interactions and outcomes.
It's just been proven that the defense actually sets the "Pocket" with Madden and despite changing the rush (inside,outside) has no true effect. The DEs always work outside, the DTs always inside.Comment
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Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?
You hit the answer to this question right on the head, IMO. In order to have a great system that works with complexity and realism, the basic building blocks of the system must be sound. For example, many of you guys know that I am a stickler for using data to do player ratings. Well if all these players strap on those motion-capture suits, why don't they just motion capture in real-time how fast a player is. Since 1998, no player has gotten a 10 yard split time in a 40 faster than 1.40 seconds. No player in this time frame has run the last 30 yards of a 40 yard dash in less than 2.69 seconds. You can easily motion capture a player running in pristine conditions where they are uninhibited by other factors. So in essence, their hypothetical "maximum acceleration and velocity" can be measured using simple and basic laws of motion. Therefore, you can make sure that no players in the game EXCEED these maximums in PRISTINE conditions. That would do away with the safeties covering 20 yards in under 1 second and other ridiculousness we see in Madden currently. I would also be an advocate of making all player levels have the same physics rules, ie: no cheating as the CPU in All-Madden difficulty via bending the physics. Instead, increase the player AWR and recognition to make the game more difficult. That way, you keep things within reality when it comes to player movement no matter the difficulty level. No more 65 SPD DTs running down my 90 SPD RBs 15 yards past the line of scrimmage.
Fix the basics, make it universal, and unbreakable.
That's my 2 cents.Dan B.
Player Ratings Administrator
www.fbgratings.com/members
NFL Scout
www.nfldraftscout.com/members
Petition to EA for FBG Ratings:
https://www.change.org/p/ea-sports-t...bers-index-phpComment
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I hope no one overlooks what ryan is saying here.
In respect to the If in the Op title, the ends are fulfiled by the means. This notion to use less mo cap dynamics favors the arcade feel and this thread is a thin line of distinction that separates sim from arcade.
Sim is more scripted and arcade is more non descript. Ea is special in that it has the madden challenge community. The prize this year was 140k and the champ is a repeat champ.
To this end there is a clear need here to appease the madden challenge crowd. We dont need clairvoyance to see this.
IF madden fixed the Ol/dl how would it be considered fix? What do the madden challenge gamers see broken w this interaction in the trenches?
Based on the above elements of the enviornment, im in favor of more mocap in the trenches and would love to see it mocapped dynamically using a true trench of 6 to 8 men entrenched in the box.
Without this wishy washy sentiment of mine however we are still faced w the reality that it is the madden challenge community that must deem what is broken within the trench gameplay and they would further dictate and direct what the wish is to see fixed.
Like you shared Bfd they tuned the movements to allow for less restriction in movements. To further this thinking in the context of the trenches more mocap would mean less user control which would furher weaken user pass rush due to animations having to first play out their role as moodey alluded to.
To the end of this the outcome hinges on how well the trenches are scripted. Would a more scripted trench battle add value to my exp. W the game? If the scripted dynamics simulated real life my exp would rise a million times fold if I could feel what it feels to be pushed and to push back.. that would be a true next gen emulation of football
To support this view I have on mocap in the trenches here is a one minute clip from a madden youtuber.. he is using ncaa for his showcase but it is still very much relevent here
Again im in favor of a new more dynamic prolonged muddy tug of war battle in the trenches but am carefully aware that these scripted sentiments do not neccessarily mix well w the views of the madden challenge gamers nor the MC' exp which hinges so much on user context and user entertainment which hinges a lot on game pace which hinges on player interaction pace.
The response to if seems almost rhetorical in here.
Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2Last edited by hanzsomehanz; 03-03-2013, 03:49 AM.how could I lose? im playing by my own rules..Comment
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Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?
ehh I remember doing any double moves I wanted in 2k5 (rip spin, swim spin), and I know for sure it had tiered play calling and double team pass blocking so I'm skeptical of any claim that the Madden Way provides greater control. Perhaps in some future version of Madden this will be realized but not today nor in the past.Comment
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Re: If Done Well How Much Could OL/DL Play and Player Movement Improve Madden?
Let's clear some things up, the "double moves" you thought you were controlling could have just been an animation. So while you thought it was user skill, just consider it was actually just a prolonged animation that just was timed well to your controler response. Reserve your thoughts on it and just assume that COULD have been the case.
Now, because the animations are so smooth of a transition with 2k I honestly am not so sure that its not true. I understand that goes against the core belief of many people, but just watching the games detailed and in slow motion for many years, that's became something my mind is open too.
Having said that, the interactions are actually the problem because the line follows flawed logic to set up the pocket. In most formations with Madden, the tackle makes two critical errors.
The first being they don't play the most outside rusher, they traditionally only play the DE. This sets the line up to struggle with LB or DB blitzs. Generally it spins the nearest Guard backwards to pick up that assignment. I can't tell you how unrealistic it is for a Guard to put his chest to the QB seconds into a play. Because any secondary blitzes usually takes an unrealistic wide angle of attack on the QB, it makes it less noticeable.
Secondly, the Tackles generally walk out to approach the DE and initiate contact. This causes a few problems, one is opens giant gaps between the Guard and Tackle, so it allows for linebackers to blitz inside freely and effectively. This same error accounts for a majority of delays and sweeps getting blown up, coincidently.
To fix this, the logic needs to be changed so that the tackle reads and picks up the most outside threat. Then the line would shift down and pick up assignments accordingly. Sometimes this would mean the center and guard only engage lineman from the side and have a short windows of effectiveness. However, it would generally mean you could read a loss of containment and see where the blitz was coming from more clearly. That would naturally lend itself to reading the pocket and exploiting a defenses weak spot based on pressure, two things you can't consistantly do in M13.
Next, the tackles need to fall back toward the QB and allow the DE to come to them and control the angle, thus efficiently protect the QB. Wide base, hands up and strafing at angle. This would stop our current system where Guards run backwards to a magic "point of contact" then animations are merged to promote blocking.
As a safety, alot of my initial reads on a play keyed off lineman. Kick Steps and wide stances generally gave away plays easily. Granted you can get killed on play actions or bootlegs doing that.....but you can't even start to read that stuff in Madden currently.Last edited by RyanMoody21; 03-03-2013, 04:40 AM.Comment
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