Player progression ideas

[triplechin]

Hello all, I have seen many people who don't like the XP based progression but haven't found a thread dedicated to the idea, so I wanted to pitch an idea and also hear the opinions of others of course. I believe I saw a similar idea somewhere in the 2K thread a while back so credit to that person as well.

What I believe there should be is some sort of percentage based progression, where a certain player would have a certain chance to be a certain tier.

For example a 70 rated player who has a good chance to be a superstar would be something like 40% 90+ ovr. 40% 80+ ovr. 15% 70+ ovr. 5% 60+ ovr

Obviously for each player it would be different, and i believe if people wanted to incorporate production then promising seasons could increase the percentages of being a higher tiered player?

I am not sure exactly how to do it but perhaps after every season or few seasons, after the player has progressed however the game has determined then the percentages could change somewhat in order to reflect the player's production as well as remaining potential.

This would also work with older players as they have a chance to regress but also have a chance to maintain their skills(Peyton, etc.)

I believe this could add some spice to franchise and would make every franchise different. Perhaps the idea could use some tuning or such but please sound off

[slick589]

Re: Player progression ideas

I'd really like to see progression based truly on stats.

Something like this: WR gets x amount of catches he gets an x amount gain in catching.

QB completes x amount of passes mid range get x amount increased mid range accuracy.

I mean just something like this for every position on the field

[Helios12787]

Re: Player progression ideas

I'm still a fan of training options such as in MLB the Show or NBA 2k.

I for one am not a fan of the XP system as it is now because it is fairly easy to make anyone a stud and given enough time / XP everyone ends up being very similar.

WR's for example: Route running and the catch ratings up to a decent level (around 80-85) are VERY easy to get to. The only time the XP starts becoming a "chore" to get is when ur looking to boost stuff from like 88+. This ends up making it so in a season's worth of just decent stats and such you can take a WR with mid 70s catch/cit/spec/route-running and have him end the season as close to and above 80 in almost all the key categories.

Same goes for defensive linemen. If they have that initial strength needed to become a stud lineman all you have to do is up the blockshed / power or finesse move and they can turn into superstars very fast. It isn't until the high 80s in those categories that the XP needed goes above like the 8k mark.

I, for one, would like to see us be able to assign off-season tasks and things to actually practice each week going into a game. Have a wide receiver who had issues with drops work on his hands in the off-season or a defensive end who was a liability in the run game work on his ability to get off the block and such. I would also like to combine this with a stats based progression system that DIDN'T make stat padding an issue.

To do this I would make the XP based less on the game to game stats and more of the actual things happening on the field. If a wide receiver is getting clutch 3rd down receptions consistently or not dropping many passes game in and game out I feel that his ratings in areas such as catch / CIT / clutch should be affected (I also would rather the clutch trait be an actual rating and not a trait). For QB's I think to prevent stat padding being an issue in progression the system needs to be based more on the QB's overall performance (such as TD to INT ratio), or 4th quarter comebacks, or their QB rating instead of how it is now which basically screams TD = XP.

[Kingd803]

Re: Player progression ideas

I'd really like to see progression based truly on stats.

Something like this: WR gets x amount of catches he gets an x amount gain in catching.

QB completes x amount of passes mid range get x amount increased mid range accuracy.

I mean just something like this for every position on the field

I don't like that at all.

Players don't get better because they play better. They play better because they get better.

But then again ratings don't mean much in EA games. You can take a backup and win the Super Bowl.

[slick589]

Re: Player progression ideas

I don't like that at all.

Players don't get better because they play better. They play better because they get better.

But then again ratings don't mean much in EA games. You can take a backup and win the Super Bowl.

Yea i guess you are right. I just really hate the whole xp thing. I shouldn't be able to increase my MLBs zone coverage bc he got 150'tackles in the season.

[triplechin]

Re: Player progression ideas

Yeah maybe to go with the offseason point, you could assign drills/specific focuses and the practices could be more mini-game like in order to speed it up and keep it more interesting

[Jr.]

Re: Player progression ideas

I was thinking about progression the other day and how OVR impacts how we view players. I think Madden has something in place that would be a good way to showcase how stats can affect a player's OVR without inflating attributes.

The production rating for each player has an effect on OVR in Madden, but the rating increases slowly as it seems to be a career rating, rather than a rating that shows how the player is performing currently.

I think they should update the code for how OVR is calculated to have the production rating be much more impactful. To do that, the production rating would have to fluctuate more based on how the player is currently performing. This would allow a player's OVR to be affected by their stats/production, but would also reflect their ratings/physical ability.

For instance, take a QB like Russell Wilson in real life. In the original rosters, Wilson was rated 74 I believe... in the latest update his OVR is over 80. Madden doesn't allow an increase like that in the game itself because OVR isn't affected by stats (while their roster updates certainly are).

Now, if EA changed how the production rating was calculated, and it's affect on a players OVR, you could have a player in the game who may be rated low to start, but has a great season and his OVR reflects that. His attributes may not have changed much, but you see his OVR based on his production from that season.

The production rating would be based on comparison to every other player in the league and there could be a floor where if the production rating is below 30 (just an arbitrary number to represent a bench player who doesn't get to play), it won't negatively affect their OVR. The rating also needs to tie in how much PT the player gets relative to their stats. So a HB who gets 100 carries on the year and has 600 yards and 4 TDs, their production rating would be better than a HB who had 600 yards and 4 TDs on 200 carries.

I'm no statistician or mathematician but I'm sure there are guys either here or at EA that could put together a good formula to represent these dynamics.

I hope this came out readable and easy to understand. I feel like no sports game has figured out how to do progression/regression properly, but I think something like this could be a good first step.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Also in regards to the XP system.. I'm not a huge fan of it either, so I'd like to see training options/drills that many other sports games have used in order to progress the actual physical ratings of players. If you want your LB to get better in pass coverage, you have him focus on that in drills/training for a season (or however long) in order to improve it.

[Helios12787]

Re: Player progression ideas

yea Baughn I agree with the fact that production while a good idea currently, has 0 impact on gameplay or anything else in terms of when a user is playing.

It seems to be as arbitrary a number as Overall itself has become due to how it is calculated.

If they could somehow formulate a way to make production itself be the baseline measurable for XP gained (if they do keep this XP system long-term which I hope they don't), I would be a happy camper. It would allow for the more project style players aren't getting bloated XP gains unless they were constantly producing on the field. Would also somewhat give more of an importance to older players whom have high production ratings already.

Currently there's really no point in not going for younger players because as long as u work on the ratings that make veterans veterans (high awareness / play rec and stuff), u basically end up with the same style of players but for a longer period of time.

I think this could further be tied into this arcadey as hell hot / cold streak system that's currently in the game. Have production rating be the main contributor in a player's play game in and game out.

[tarek]

Re: Player progression ideas

Something I would like to see (which is different to player progression) is a more robust player history.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but EA have a deal with the NFL, therefore they can access all past data with regards to the NFL. So why simply keep each player profile generic with their season stats, career stats, contract info and now some of their attributes.

I want to see something like 'history' or milestones, where I can click on any player and it can list their most memorable games (individual), most memorable games (team - like a past superbowl win) and a whole bunch of different historic events pertaining to that specific player. Then, imagine I could select one of them and it takes me to archival boxscore and associated recap from NFL.com?

Thoughts on that? I have plenty more but don't want to go nuts.

[bucky60]

Re: Player progression ideas

I'd really like to see progression based truly on stats.

I'd really like to see progression based truly on REALISM. I don't mean mimic real life player by player, but base progression on the factors that actually make a player progress in real life.

[Pandetta]

Re: Player progression ideas

Something I would like to see (which is different to player progression) is a more robust player history.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but EA have a deal with the NFL, therefore they can access all past data with regards to the NFL. So why simply keep each player profile generic with their season stats, career stats, contract info and now some of their attributes.

I want to see something like 'history' or milestones, where I can click on any player and it can list their most memorable games (individual), most memorable games (team - like a past superbowl win) and a whole bunch of different historic events pertaining to that specific player. Then, imagine I could select one of them and it takes me to archival boxscore and associated recap from NFL.com?

Thoughts on that? I have plenty more but don't want to go nuts.

I like this idea a lot - I would only be concerned about it bogging the game down/memory hogging. Hopefully this is something they can explore in the next generation. Little details can make a good game great.

[Trick13]

Re: Player progression ideas

This is something I would like to see changed as well. I believe that you already have the most of what you need to fix this in the game.

Each player is being tracked in terms of "legacy", so take the productivity "rating" - PRD and make it much more sensitive and make it fluctuate much more rapidly. The take PRD and weigh it more heavily within the calculation for the OVR rating.

So every QB will be graded each week vs every other QB. They should get positive points for TDs, Yardage, first downs and negative points for INTs, fumbles.
PRD calculated out in this way would give a better immediate indication of on field production that directly relates to other players at his position.

During the season, the PRD should be just that season and graded from week to week. In between season it should be averaged, sort of, with that player's previous yearly PRD grades. The most recent season should be counted much more heavily in this "averaged" PRD. After finishing a rookie season there is nothing to average, he just gets his PRD grade from the previous season.

I think a good ratio would be the most recent season counting for 75 percent of the grade. The NFL is a "what have you done for me lately" business model."

This would also prevent "physical freak" backups that User teams, hide behind low ratings from being ultra productive situational players that are very cheap to resign. Example - I myself drafted a 7th RD DE with 89 SPD, I would manually sub him into "definite" passing downs. He produced 11 sacks per year average and 13 in his contract year and yet I resigned him for a 5 year deal around 750K base and 500K bonus.

If his PRD weighed more heavily into his OVR calculation - he would have been much more difficult to retain. His sack total would have put him in the top 15 league wide and 9th at DE. Let's say that equated to a 93 PRD for the season and about a 91 PRD for the offseason, for the sake of argument.

If you calculate using 91 PRD, with 95 PHYS, 71 SIZ, 67 INT and 94 DUR you get an "OVR" of 84 (I rounded up).
Now I doubt I could resign that player based on that new OVR as at the time I had nearly maxed out my cap space. (His OVR was 71 when I resigned him).


Side note; for both single player and multiple user there needs to be a waiver wire, and every player released needs to flow through that process.

I like that my idea has inspired others...

[Jr.]

Re: Player progression ideas

I like that my idea has inspired others...

You know what they say about great minds. Your idea is fleshed out better... well done, Trick.

[BV11]

Re: Player progression ideas

"Players don't get better because they play better, they play better because they get better"

AMEN, that could not be said any better.

There should be a Potential and a Work Ethic rating. Work Ethic determines how fast a guy reaches his potential. Potential is the ceiling for the players attributes (every attribute should have a potential, like NFL Head Coach). Potential could be hidden so it didn't ruin the surprise of guys.

The fact that people want stat based progression is only an argument because the game is flawed and guys don't play to their ratings. You shouldn't be able to take a 70 OVR guy and rush for 2000 yards in the, because he is only 70 OVR for a reason.

If a guy was a 70 OVR rookie and you gave him 300 carries, he should only be able to average about 3 yards a carry, because he isn't a good player. Now, over the course of his career say he develops to a 90 OVR because of a high Potential and Work Ethic rating, now that guy is a player and should average around 5 yards a carry. That is how the game SHOULD work, but who knows how far of from that we are...

[DeuceDouglas]

Re: Player progression ideas

"Players don't get better because they play better, they play better because they get better"

AMEN, that could not be said any better.

There should be a Potential and a Work Ethic rating. Work Ethic determines how fast a guy reaches his potential. Potential is the ceiling for the players attributes (every attribute should have a potential, like NFL Head Coach). Potential could be hidden so it didn't ruin the surprise of guys.

The fact that people want stat based progression is only an argument because the game is flawed and guys don't play to their ratings. You shouldn't be able to take a 70 OVR guy and rush for 2000 yards in the, because he is only 70 OVR for a reason.

If a guy was a 70 OVR rookie and you gave him 300 carries, he should only be able to average about 3 yards a carry, because he isn't a good player. Now, over the course of his career say he develops to a 90 OVR because of a high Potential and Work Ethic rating, now that guy is a player and should average around 5 yards a carry. That is how the game SHOULD work, but who knows how far of from that we are...

Mike Shanahan has made a career out taking 70 OVR backs and making them look like 90 OVR's.

I get that players get better before they play better, I just don't find it appealing in terms of building a video game roster. I want him to be better because I made him better, not because the game made him better for me. I don't want to draft a QB that is a 77 and have him not play for three seasons and progress into a 90. And likewise, I don't want to draft a QB that is a 77 and throw 50 interceptions in a season and have him progress because he has good potential or 'work-ethic'.