Madden NFL 25 - Looking at Five Major Areas in the Running Game (MyMaddenPad)

[hanzsomehanz]

Returning to your point, KB, could you elaborate on your allusion to the governance of ratings?

Im starting to grasp the validity in acceleration but I am def clear on stamina and more so on speed. I would like to hear your insight on Accel though.

If I dont accelerate the player I can still drive him with the left stick which means he is already in motion. Im starting to understand the key to your point.

Is there a neutral point you are hinting at? In a driving game, I cannot initiate forward or reverse progress until I put my foot to the pedal.

In this event the drive pedal is Left Stick. I think you are saying the auto-sprint may be gone but auto-accelerate still exists and should be next to be removed? My only claim to that Is that players are set in motion at the set of the whistle.

I really want to see the truth between that grey area and I think you got it in your crosshairs that efforts are being duplicated. This is why I use the vehicles for comparisons and figures for speech.

If we did rerwrite the right trigger assignment, what could its new function be? But more interestingly, is that what some are suggesting? I see it as a way for us to command when to accelerate or sprint and the ratings determine the potential - it could become pressure sensitive *shoulder shrug*

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[Trick13]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Looking at Five Major Areas in the Running Game (MyMaddenPad)

I think what I don't understand is why isn't this just captured in the SPD/ACC/STA ratings?

Why do we need a "speed burst" if the player is already accelerating to his ability? Why do we need a way to a make player accelerate beyond his ability or even at the max of his ability? If I don't want my guy to go full speed - shouldn't that already be dictated by how I use the stick to move him?

The "need" for "speed burst" is still there. The sticks on both the PS3 and 360 are not nearly advanced enough to allow for differences in speed - I have tried this over and over and over in practice mode - offense only - and the sticks are not "resistant" enough, nor are they sensitive enough.

NFL football is not always played at 80/100, especially RBs vary speeds behind the LOS to "set-up" blocks or "wait" for the play to develop. That's why you hear football analysts say "So n So showed great patience on that play..." or "he saw a lane and then man he hit another gear".

Now if we had controls (L stick in particular) that featured far more tension - think "Hard Driving" at the arcade - then the ratings and sticks would be enough. And I would be all for the removal of "sprint" as a button. As is, according to some accounts, M25 will be the first Madden to have CPU players hit full speed. Well, that took forever and now we are talking about them trying to program CPU players to use variable speeds appropriately???

I hope we eventually get where you are talking/dreaming about, but I don't see it being accomplished any time soon.

[hanzsomehanz]

The way I understand it is if you hold down the LT your player will run at 80% if you hold down LT and I think RS he will run at full speed. There's a detailed breakdown on Espn http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/b...96&src=desktop

I undetstand LT to be brake/deaccelerate ans can be used in unison with Right Stick to modify jukes.

KB seems to be appealing the validity in a speed burst addition or at least the decision of its use.

Right now we can move around off the Left Stick alone which implies acceleration and drive is being designated to the Left Stick and Right Trigger which is why the RT suggests nitro in my mind.

It does seem to be overdone and there is also a gap implied in this system. If our players could truly come to a rest (break) we should be forced to only use RT to initiate drive - LS should only control movements and pivots.

I would take it further and suggest a true gear system like a car so we can mimick different horsepower capacities. It is known not any given player can hit top speed every game and this was captured in an interview with kenyan barner for an NCAA 14 sizzle.

If LT functioned as a full modifier it could modify speed shifts as well as moves on offense and defense. I would love to feel the gradient effect of shifts in speed. I would never or hardly expect to hit top speed with the hogs in any given game but to witness this we need speed and accel to be more accurately implemented and utilized.

In a tru to life progression scale, I should greatly reduce my chances of hitting top speed on any given play each time I am forced to stop or slow down.

As it stands now, I can hit top speed universally with any given player and there is no pause or break in that progression towards peak performance that simulates the graduated effect of going from 0 to 40yrds in 4.6 versus in 5.7 nor in a player only having one gear: very slow versus a player capable of a fourth gear: very fast; everyone runs almost synchronously at the same monotone rate.

Imagine though, having to dbl tap RT to change gears for any player (universally) and not every player has the same top speed gear - meaning CJ has four gears but guys like Casey Hampton only have one gear and that is SLOW meaning - no shifts. Teo would have two out of four gears, just enough to hold up in close quarters as a slow LB but will lose the race in a chase down sprint.

Sweet sexy, I must go relieve myself now.

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[UMhester04]

I undetstand LT to be brake/deaccelerate ans can be used in unison with Right Stick to modify jukes.

KB seems to be appealing the validity in a speed burst addition or at least the decision of its use.

Right now we can move around off the Left Stick alone which implies acceleration and drive is being designated to the Left Stick and Right Trigger which is why the RT suggests nitro in my mind.

It does seem to be overdone and there is also a gap implied in this system. If our players could truly come to a rest (break) we should be forced to only use RT to initiate drive - LS should only control movements and pivots.

I would take it further and suggest a true gear system like a car so we can mimick different horsepower capacities. It is known not any given player can hit top speed every game and this was captured in an interview with kenyan barner for an NCAA 14 sizzle.

If LT functioned as a full modifier it could modify speed shifts as well as moves on offense and defense. I would love to feel the gradient effect of shifts in speed. I would never or hardly expect to hit top speed with the hogs in any given game but to witness this we need speed and accel to be more accurately implemented and utilized.

In a tru to life progression scale, I should greatly reduce my chances of hitting top speed on any given play each time I am forced to stop or slow down.

Imagine though, having to dbl tap RT to change gears for any player (universally) and not every player has the same top speed gear - meaning CJ has four gears but guys like Casey Hampton only have one gear and that is SLOW meaning - no shifts. Teo would have two out of four gears, just enough to hold up in close quarters as a slow LB but will lose the race in a chase down sprint.

Sweet sexy, I must go relieve myself now.

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I like where you're going but 4 gears is too much. Having to double tap the RT for times in a play is excessive

[CT Pitbull]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Looking at Five Major Areas in the Running Game (MyMaddenPad)

This all reminds me of the NFL preseason a couple years ago. Do yall remember that? if you listened to the magazines and the newspapers and ESPN and NFL Network the Philadelphia Eagles were the next Super Bowl Champions! They were dominant in free agency and the undisputed "paper" champions of the NFL. How'd that all turn out?

Ill wait and see on all of this improvement. Im happy that the guys from the simstandard or involved but ive been told of great changes and improvements in the past from this series and all I/we got is herky jerky quirky gameplay. I hope THIS time around its the "real deal".

[hanzsomehanz]

I like where you're going but 4 gears is too much. Having to double tap the RT for times in a play is excessive

The 4th gear is a rare air.

You may not need to use that fourth gear. It is as a viable option but not a neccessity because everyone else is also trying to accelerate and read/react.

*CJ has gotten many big runs off without hitting top speed but its the threat that makes him a weapon. He can still outrun guys on his 2nd and even 1st gear because of his acceleration and shiftiness,from there he can coast in.

*I never saw Prime Time hit his top speed - he could zig and zag and outrun with ease & fluidity.

This is why the 4th gear is tough to trigger - no different than trying to get a ferrari or horse to hit its top speed except the the difference is in the body of the object.

Thx for the feedback

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[UMhester04]

The 4th gear is a rare air.

You may not need to use that fourth gear. It is as a viable option but not a neccessity because everyone else is also trying to accelerate and read/react.

*CJ has gotten many big runs off without hitting top speed but its the threat that makes him a weapon. He can still outrun guys on his 2nd and even 1st gear because of his acceleration and shiftiness,from there he can coast in.

*I never saw Prime Time hit his top speed - he could zig and zag and outrun with ease & fluidity.

This is why the 4th gear is tough to trigger - no different than trying to get a ferrari or horse to hit its top speed except the the difference is in the body of the object.

Thx for the feedback

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I see what you're sayin. I like the idea, anything that's different than what we have now.

[Trick13]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Looking at Five Major Areas in the Running Game (MyMaddenPad)

I think you guys, and EA, really need to spend some time watching Sports Science and their breakdowns of skill position players they did for the draft.

I get where your heads are at, but these athletes accelerate far faster than any of these ideas would lend themselves to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5LvLPoNWYU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZGW-QxKn30

http://espn.go.com/espn/sportscience/index?topId=9189803

[hanzsomehanz]

@Trick I am not disputing the prowess of top Athletes. In fact, the use of a short and long break toggle via the LT could better express their change of direction and deacceleration / restart abilites.

The type of user control Im in favor of for us is more user definiton over the player but more importantly, more bearing under the player's governing ratings capacity.

I vouch that not every single player runs with the same horsepower but with this current system everyone hits top speed at the same monotone rate.

In reality, some players have the horsepower and top speed potential of big cats while others are like elephants in one spectrum. On the other spectrum you have your hogs and your dogs.

* I would liken an elephant to the Brandon Jacobs prototype.

What Im diffetentiating is the varying ways in which these unique animals accelerate and carry force.

* Elephants cannot accelerate to top speeds like Cheetahs and other big cats but their mass is intimidating esp. when they are gaining momentum.

* The Elephant's change of direction (COD) is no threat and can be its own downfall but it is an immense force against anyone its direct path.

That said, to see these differences in horsepower and COD exuded through the various player DNAs would be an exceptional compliment to the advent of Run Free.

I am thoroughly enamoured with the brake/accelerate Run Free functions and would love to see a 2nd advent where EA expands on its (LT/RT) application and usability come the nXGen consoles.

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[Trick13]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Looking at Five Major Areas in the Running Game (MyMaddenPad)

@Trick I am not disputing the prowess of top Athletes. In fact, the use of a short and long break toggle via the LT coule better express their change of direction and deacceleration / restart skills.

The type of user control Im in favor of us more user definiton over the player but more importantly more bearing under the player'a governing ratings capacity.

I vouch that not every single player runs with the same horsepower but with this current system everyone hits top speed at the same monotone rate.

In reality, some players have the horsepower and top speed potential of a cheetah while others are like elephants in one spectrum. On the other spectrum you have your hogs and your dogs. I would liken an elephant to the Brandon Jacobs prototype.

What Im diffetentiating is the varying ways in which these unique animals accelerate and carry force. Elephants cannot accelerate to top speeds like Cheetahs and other big cats but their mass is intimidating esp. when they are gaining momentum.

I am thoroughly enamoured with the brake/accelerate functions and would love to see EA expand on its (LT/RT) application and usability come the nXGen consoles.

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I get where you are coming from - and I am all for "ratings governance" - but watch that third video - it is a 300+ lbs DT prospect - and it very well may make you take a step back and say "my gosh, these "elephants" move more like "cheetahs" than I thought"...

[hanzsomehanz]

I get where you are coming from - and I am all for "ratings governance" - but watch that third video - it is a 300+ lbs DT prospect - and it very well may make you take a step back and say "my gosh, these "elephants" move more like "cheetahs" than I thought"...

"Sly covers 10yards in 2.085s - better than the average for the 2013 combine RB draftees and can accelerate upto 16MpH"

SLY is a Freak!

I hear your advocation and would not label him an elephant but more like a rhino with that kind of charge.

We are humans, unique creatures ourselves and as such some of us have hips like gazelles and size like elephants.

Kearse was a freak and he met his bumps. Suh is a prototype freak amd he has met his limitations too. SLY will not be going against dummy bags in the NFL and that wear and tear will degrade his max.

*If Sylvester Williams deserves a 92+ accel, give it to him but in no way is that the base, more like the bar for DTs.

We know this was one of the weakest RB classes to come out since maybe the year Curtis Ennis got drafted pick 5 RD1 by the Bears in '98.

I would infer further that the acceleration is too overpowering in Madden as it is, universally, and this is why we lack that gradient effect of four different top speed thresholds.

Since it would be more far-fetched to see EA change the rating relativity, I find it more reasonable to encourage a change in relativity for acceleration directly so the rating values carry a new weight.



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[Trick13]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Looking at Five Major Areas in the Running Game (MyMaddenPad)

I am not arguing against more weight on ACC, that is a great idea, and really not arguing against the "removal" of "sprint", more over I would like it, just someone is gonna have to drastically modify the controllers, or make an aftermarket "high tension sticks" controller to get the kind of control where it would make sense...

[KBLover]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Looking at Five Major Areas in the Running Game (MyMaddenPad)

Returning to your point, KB, could you elaborate on your allusion to the governance of ratings?

Im starting to grasp the validity in acceleration but I am def clear on stamina and more so on speed. I would like to hear your insight on Accel though.

If I dont accelerate the player I can still drive him with the left stick which means he is already in motion. Im starting to understand the key to your point.

Is there a neutral point you are hinting at? In a driving game, I cannot initiate forward or reverse progress until I put my foot to the pedal.

In this event the drive pedal is Left Stick. I think you are saying the auto-sprint may be gone but auto-accelerate still exists and should be next to be removed? My only claim to that Is that players are set in motion at the set of the whistle.

The way I see ACC being used is how quickly the player goes from slower speed to higher speed - no matter where higher or lower is. So if I'm going from 30% to 60%, or 20% to 100% - ACC = the rate the player actually gains velocity. So this brings in actual physics. We have his max speed and his rate of acceleration.

In real life, when a player starts running, be it the 40 or an out route or a juke, the player is going from a slower speed to a higher one. How quickly he does that is his acceleration ability.

So on the snap, let's say I'm doing a run play, the QB hands the ball off. The HB is in motion and now the circle is under him, so it's on me.

If I don't touch the stick (and assuming not in a coach mode), he'll come to an eventual stop/very slow speed (which might be useful, too...perhaps to get those chop steps/stutter steps in the mix - letting go of the stick would be the easiest way to do that from a control standpoint). If I do move the stick, he'll go towards a speed based on how hard my stick goes.

If my stick is about 50%, he'll go at not quite his full speed, just like in, say, Warriors Orochi 3 where I can make my character walk by pushing up half way, or go full speed by pushing far enough up.

So the PS3 obviously can tell a difference between the levels of the stick. I notice this as well when I use my stick with my PC emulator. It registers between -1 to 1 on both the X and Y axis.

So I'm envisioning using the L stick for this. Basically the L stick sets the "goal speed" of the player. Pushing on the accelerator is you moving the stick forward. Steering left and right would be moving the L stick left and right. Slamming the break is pulling back.

With this, we could do ALL moves of a halfback. A juke would be a quick hard left then full forward-right, having my player wanting to explode back to full speed after stabbing his foot into the ground. A stop-and-go move would be pulling back, then pushing forward again. And so on.

ACC would play into how quickly the player accelerates up to the speed. So a guy with 50 ACC trying a juke would not explode up to his top speed as quickly. He'll get there eventually if given enough space and time, but vs a 99 ACC, the control would feel more "clunky". That might sound like gimping the user, but it causes the user to change running style just like you don't drive a SUV like a Formula 1 car.

AGI could come into play here, too. That's like the "handling" of the car. A SUV has poor agility. That would be like a FB trying to cut like Barry Sanders - probably not happening. At more subtle differences, it creates separation not by "delaying" reaction, but because he can't "corner" as smoothly. He loses time and distance while the nimble athlete whips around almost without breaking stride. Now we have Jerry Rice vs a faster, but less smooth-footed DB. And then it brings in more user skill WITHOUT overriding ability. User skill becomes about melding with the player you're using.

STA of course modifies energy of the player and is like the gas in the tank. As it dwindles, SPD, AGI, ACC all suffer. Top speed wanes, the cuts get a little sloppier, the explosiveness wanes.

That's a lot of how I envision just the player's abilities doing the work without needing a "speed burst" button.

[KBLover]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Looking at Five Major Areas in the Running Game (MyMaddenPad)

I am not arguing against more weight on ACC, that is a great idea, and really not arguing against the "removal" of "sprint", more over I would like it, just someone is gonna have to drastically modify the controllers, or make an aftermarket "high tension sticks" controller to get the kind of control where it would make sense...

I don't know - I think it would just require a learning new "stick skills".

I ordered a $9.99 no-name PC controller to save wear on my PS3 controller (which will need replacing soon, poor thing is like Ed Reed - still can play but trying to hang on and past his prime).

I can get variance of how the stick registers. If some el cheapo controller like that can do it through an emulator - I would think at the very least the PS4 should be able to handle it if it's as powerful as it supposedly is going to be. It's dedicated to gaming and uses USB and if the processor is any good, reading the controller's input shouldn't cost much processor time.

It's more the programmers and us adapting, imo. I think the hardware can do it. Could us gamers do it (or be willing to learn) and could the programmers write efficient code to prevent hitches, frame loss, and lags? I think that's the harder question.

[Trick13]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Looking at Five Major Areas in the Running Game (MyMaddenPad)

I don't know - I think it would just require a learning new "stick skills".

I ordered a $9.99 no-name PC controller to save wear on my PS3 controller (which will need replacing soon, poor thing is like Ed Reed - still can play but trying to hang on and past his prime).

I can get variance of how the stick registers. If some el cheapo controller like that can do it through an emulator - I would think at the very least the PS4 should be able to handle it if it's as powerful as it supposedly is going to be. It's dedicated to gaming and uses USB and if the processor is any good, reading the controller's input shouldn't cost much processor time.

It's more the programmers and us adapting, imo. I think the hardware can do it. Could us gamers do it (or be willing to learn) and could the programmers write efficient code to prevent hitches, frame loss, and lags? I think that's the harder question.

My hesitation comes from playing some games where there is variable speed tied to the left stick - it is there and works well in those environments, but football is more strenuous and requires much more rapid changes in speed than any of those other games I have played.

I do like the idea, I just know EA has trouble implementing things and that is my biggest hesitation - their ability or inability to differentiate the controller input and the "weight" of ratings.

Example; Route running as a rating makes no substantial variances in the game play, I have tested this extensively, 50-99 makes no difference in the routes - so the only thing it might do is serve as a check vs Man Coverage to determine a win-lose scenario - but I would suggest that it should vary the "exactness" or lack of of routes - low RR players may break route off early or late, low RR rated players would be "slower" in and out of cuts on routes than their AGI, ACC would allow if they had 99 RR.

That is just one of many reasons why it gives me pause - not that the idea is bad, it is a great idea, but I feel like the controllers should be "tighter" and EA would have to be much better at implementation than they have ever even dreamed of...