Madden NFL 25 Video - Playbook: Run Free with Trey Wingo and Doug Martin

[SageInfinite]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Video - Playbook: Run Free with Trey Wingo and Doug Martin

Yeah that's the one of the biggest problems with Madden's blocking, there's no flow. Blockers and defenders can't guide and drive to impact plays. There's either guys get beat or they get thrown to the ground. The engagement might as well be non-existent.

[TreFacTor]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Video - Playbook: Run Free with Trey Wingo and Doug Martin

I just noticed in this, the defender has a good angle on the runner but when the runner spins, the defender (#94) magically warps behind him for the missed tackle. The animation seemed to cancel out the defenders positioning.

If that's any indication, then positioning and momentum doesn't matter.

There's no way they can talk about the defense being improved if it's going to be handicapped like that.

I think that what's worse, and even more telling, is that Murray is on one leg when he collides with #94...that in and of itself let's me know there will be animations that aren't interruptable. #94 has the option of laying Murray out with a big hit up top or taking out a knee and simply gets shrugged off of Murray...not realistic at all.

Edit:
Now that I think about it, the notion that these early looks are with the game on rookie and certain players ratings boosted makes IE look even worse if it's true...the attributes of the players should never override the physics. This in particular is a perfect example of weight, balance and force not being taken into consideration or simply being nullified by an animation or string of animations. I would have been fooled had Murray had a stumble animation and then been tackled by the nearest defender but we see he continues on so...

[beauforsure]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Video - Playbook: Run Free with Trey Wingo and Doug Martin

Well, that looked a million times better than the trailer. As long as the moves aren't too effective I think it will be a good feature.

this game looks like an arcade . its the NBA Jam of football Madden 25

[BezO]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Video - Playbook: Run Free with Trey Wingo and Doug Martin

There will be a blog and I think trailer coming out soon about the blocking, we'll see if it shows something different than past Madden's regarding blocking.

Jon Robinson touched on it briefly in his impressions article.

“As everyone knows, interaction between the offensive and defensive lines has been a sore spot, a weak spot for the franchise for years,” said Dickson. “So to handle this, we went out and hired a former NFL offensive lineman named Clint Oldenburg. He played for the Redskins, Jets and Patriots, and he came to us with a wealth of knowledge about what real-world run blocking and pass blocking looks like. He broke down for us how real-world offensive and defensive line interaction really works. This year, we really focused heavily on the running game, so you’ll see these new interactions and variations like pull block steps, reach blocks, zone steps … a lot of new stuff going on with our blocking game. Every single running play in the entire game has been completely redone.”

Not sure if it was from a previewer, Game Changer or dev, but my understanding is that most if not all work went into the assignments. They specifically mention pull, reach & zone blocks in what you quote.

If they did work on the actual interaction, it's not apparent in these vids. But they released vids last year with IE not on/in, so let's hope. Maybe it will be one of the big reveals this year. Maybe part of a defensive blog/vid.

[jpdavis82]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Video - Playbook: Run Free with Trey Wingo and Doug Martin

Not sure if it was from a previewer, Game Changer or dev, but my understanding is that most if not all work went into the assignments. They specifically mention pull, reach & zone blocks in what you quote.

If they did work on the actual interaction, it's not apparent in these vids. But they released vids last year with IE not on/in, so let's hope. Maybe it will be one of the big reveals this year. Maybe part of a defensive blog/vid.

Definitely a possibility, if you have been following the blogs of the different GC's they all mention certain elements of gameplay that weren't in the builds in February that they played and later on they were.

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Video - Playbook: Run Free with Trey Wingo and Doug Martin

I think people have next gen expectations right now, you should know by now that a complete overhaul in player movement won't happen until then. You're only fooling yourself if you thought otherwise.

Weren't you the one who last year was guaranteeing that this year we would see OL/DL interaction overhaul, and a complete rewrite of player movement based on physics, and now WE are the ones who are expecting the impossible and should wait for next gen?

I could go and get your quotes if it's absolutely necessary...

[jpdavis82]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Video - Playbook: Run Free with Trey Wingo and Doug Martin

Weren't you the one who last year was guaranteeing that this year we would see OL/DL interaction overhaul, and a complete rewrite of player movement based on physics, and now WE are the ones who are expecting the impossible and should wait for next gen?

I could go and get your quotes if it's absolutely necessary...

I was until I learned we were this close to next gen and saw what the Playbook features were. If people who are posting their expectations without seeing the Playbooks for Madden 25 then I can understand their disappointment. At the same time, knowing that a next gen console will be out and most likely a next gen Madden three months after M25 on 360/PS3, I think we all can wait 3 more months to hold onto those next gen expectations.

[The_Rick_14]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Video - Playbook: Run Free with Trey Wingo and Doug Martin

For instance watch this guy in the video. Runningback is 10 to 15 yards down field past him yet he is still in block animation WTF!!!!!!!!!!

Don't exaggerate your points like this. It just makes you instantly lose credibility in my eyes.

[JerzeyReign]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Video - Playbook: Run Free with Trey Wingo and Doug Martin

Don't exaggerate your points like this. It just makes you instantly lose credibility in my eyes.

If you watch that part in the video you will see that the blocking animation is held while he is 10-15 yards down field.

He isn't exaggerating.

[jpdavis82]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Video - Playbook: Run Free with Trey Wingo and Doug Martin

Don't exaggerate your points like this. It just makes you instantly lose credibility in my eyes.

I'm asking the GC's about this right now to see if it was like this when they played. Looks like everyone else is running upfield properly, but yeah those two in the background are still engaged in blocks 12 yards behind Charles.

[UMhester04]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Video - Playbook: Run Free with Trey Wingo and Doug Martin

Different definitions?

There are defenders stuck to blockers in the middle of the field while the ball is being run to the outside. There are defenders stuck to blockers in the middle with their back's to the ball while the ball is 15 yards down field.

I'll call it Tecmo blocking instead. 2 players engage and the only outcomes are pancake & break block. Engaged players have no mobility. Blockers should not be stopping defenders from moving laterally nor backwards without holding.

Phobia points out what I'm talking about below.

It's also the defenders further in the background. This throws the timing & spacing of the game way off. Too much room on the outside. Those engaged players should be flowing towards the play, defending their gap. How does a defender contain if he can't move once engaged? How does EA balance this? Easier for defenders to disengage than real life? DBs better tacklers than real life? Something has to be manipulated to keep rushing in control.

If you could see what that defender is doing when the RB does get 15 yards up the field, he'd be doing the same thing those defenders in the background have no business doing. Playing patty cake. Dancing. Whatever you want to call it.

This is my number one problem with EA football. I play my friends sometimes and what's the number one thing they do when they get the handoff? Run to the outside.

Why? because the line gets sucked into each other and there is always ALWAYS open field to the outside; it's a guaranteed ten yard gain every time.

I dream of the day where big plays in Madden and NCAA come from having a shifty runner that you can knife through holes with. That is impossible in these games because the defense always turns right with you and tackles you anyways, there is no momentum for them that you can play with (sell that you're running in one direction and cut back against their momentum).

Example of what a real pitch play is supposed to look like:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/mfFFPgmtBeY?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


The defenders need to ride with their blockers, in Madden they just break away. It's impossible to break a nice run up the middle because there is always someone that comes free, calling the perfect play and having the defense out of position doesn't matter.


EDIT: When I said my friends all run the the outside, it doesn't come on pitch plays, it comes mostly from inside handoffs that they turn into long gains from going to the outside. I was just trying to demonstrate what the line play should look like in the video.

[SageInfinite]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Video - Playbook: Run Free with Trey Wingo and Doug Martin

I just hope we're able to duplicate moves and runs like this.

Spoiler

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Video - Playbook: Run Free with Trey Wingo and Doug Martin

I just hope we're able to duplicate moves and runs like this.

Spoiler

Now that's just below the belt man lol.

[BezO]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Video - Playbook: Run Free with Trey Wingo and Doug Martin

I'm asking the GC's about this right now to see if it was like this when they played. Looks like everyone else is running upfield properly, but yeah those two in the background are still engaged in blocks 12 yards behind Charles.

Be sure to ask about mobility of engaged blocks, not just defenders disengaging to pursue.

2 things wrong with the pic you quoted. Charles is 15 yards up field and a defender looks like he's still fighting to get to the QB. But prior to Charles getting that far up field... engaged defenders should be flowing towards the outside as soon as the play begins to develop.

Check the Chris Johnson highlights in this spoiler. I pick him because he is/was one of the fastest RBs in the league & takes the corner more than most.

Spoiler

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/wbo-UY1UlKg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

1st hightlight - he takes the corner by first influencing defenders inside then bouncing outside. Even though he breaks contain, notice all but one defender outside the hash.

0:42 - Great defense except for backside contain. Defenders do their job without disengaging. Blockers do their job by riding defenders beyond the play. Good defense, good blocking, cut back because 1 defender didn't do his job.

0:58 - Counter action influences the defense enough to get Johnson the corner, but like the 1st highlight, notice all defenders outside the hash. Nothing like Madden where you have almost from the hash to the sidelines to work.

I won't go through the whole vid. As you watch, you'll see this same thing happening over & over. And these are highlights. Way more often defenders do a better job of containing, pursuing & filling, not allowing big plays.

Also note the down field blocking. Players don't stop moving when they're engaged & can still make a play. In Madden, a blocker engaging you pretty much takes you out of the play.

None of this is possible in Madden until they implement engaged player mobility.

Edit: Damn! Could've let UMHester handle this.

[jpdavis82]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Video - Playbook: Run Free with Trey Wingo and Doug Martin

Shopmaster just wrote a small article about this himself after playing the game this week and didn't say much but he did say that practice to pull off all these moves is going to be necessary. I know some people were concerned that "Run Free" would turn every hb into Barry Sanders or Earl Campbell, but that doesn't seem to be the case. He plans to have a more detailed impressions article on this later this weekend.