Madden NFL 25 Gameplay Roundtable (UTC)

[Hooe]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Gameplay Roundtable (UTC)

Not sure why you said "predictably", but maybe there is some background to this that I'm not aware of.

In any case, not sure how anyone can look at PS2/XBOX Madden and say that it animated well, let alone animated better than that of it's NFL 2K counterpart, so I guess all I can say is, ok lol.

As for the point that past generations can't be judged because they were too primitive? I don't get that. 8bit graphics are terrible in retrospect, but that doesn't mean that there aren't 8bit games that look better than others.

Graphics and animations can be, and should be, up for comparisons to games from that same era, regardless of when they were made. I can't see any circumstance where this would not be the case.

To be clear, I said "predictably" because I have a tendency to go against what appears to be popular opinion on these boards. No slight on you.

On 8-bit and 16-bit football video games - my recollection is that the concept of a wrap tackle didn't exist. All tackles were defenders diving at the ball carrier with one eight-angle sprite animation to choose from. To that end making a comparison isn't particularly useful. Either way, bringing up sprite-based games isn't relevant to the quality of the current game, as 2D and 3D are two entirely different animals.

As to Madden on Gen-6 and Gen-7 consoles being animated poorly, you're going to have to give specific examples because I simply don't see poor quality animations, any glaring issues with the inverse kinematics or in blending animations together, or what have you. There is player warping on occasion, and I allow that this has historically been a point of frustration in Madden, but all animation-driven sports games have warping to some extent. I think there are also issues where certain situations do not have proper animations placed into the game - OL/DL battles come to mind - but the animations present in the game and how they trigger and execute by and large all fit a football context as well.

I'm not going to entertain specific comparisons to other games because that is a no-no in the Madden forum.

In any case, I invite you to be more specific to your point that Madden animates poorly. I could be missing something.

[CT Pitbull]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Gameplay Roundtable (UTC)

Either way i think we can all agree that EA football, in general, is at a critical tipping point with their customers. Or should i say their hardcore customers. I have a funny feeling that if they cant nail this thing down in the next year or two, someone else may be willing to take a a crack at it. Even if its NOT a licensed product. At this point guys like us are soo "quality football game starved" that we dont care if the game has the real logos and players or not. I for one could care less at this point i just wanna play a great game of football before im 50 years old. Like someone in this thread said if the guys at BB accually had a clue about american football that game might have been the start of something special. Who's to say another gaming group doesnt come together with a similar, more advanced, effort with their finger on the pulse of what guys like us are looking for? Maybe its just wishful thinking. Or maybe EA will get there act together sooner than later.

[BlackRome]

The running game has never been the biggest problem in the next generation of Madden Games. It's been the people who never throw a pass further than 5 yards and can stay in a game. If you play someone who really knows how to play Madden. Far as reading passing windows and not looking to throw a screen or a crossing route all game. It's a great game.

The problem is that you can actually be successful at the game never having to throw further than 5 yards.

That's the BS that ruins the game online. If you can't read a passing window you shouldn't be allowed to be able to move the ball. That's the NFL.

Imagine Jimmy Clausen being successful in the NFL. Well you can basically do the only thing he can do and be in a game in Madden.

I have played people that only throw crossing routes and screen passes. . That's what makes the game suck. I would love for them to bring the passing window back but since most Madden players online have no idea how to maneuver safeties and only are looking to throw 5 yard passes. They would stop buying the game.

[BlackRome]

I see people online trying to defend me. They are playing the MLB looking constantly for the crossing route. When I learned how to call a game from the Ernie Zampese tree. I look down the field then look for shorter routes. I read the safeties to let me know what defense your in. That's how I have always played Madden.

Just to show off how great a I am at passing I never throw crossing routes or screens. They were never a staple in his playbook.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Gameplay Roundtable (UTC)

One of the things I didn't really like was in regards to the fatigue bar. I thought it was supposed to be cumulative. That's really disappointing IMO. I thought this would allow you to wear a defense down throughout the game.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Gameplay Roundtable (UTC)

One of the things I didn't really like was in regards to the fatigue bar. I thought it was supposed to be cumulative. That's really disappointing IMO. I thought this would allow you to wear a defense down throughout the game.

I think it is cumulative, at least throughout a game, we don't know about Connected Franchise mode yet for an entire season. I think those in the round table that were concerned about it not being that way, hadn't actually been hands on with it.

CoreySA: It’s a great idea. Stamina has never been used as a type of strategy in the past. This year, it’ll be something users have to think about – which is a huge improvement. Player management is incredibly important in football, and that’s why you see so many teams with dual running backs. I think it’s really going to restore some balance and intelligence to how players use their rosters in Madden NFL 25. While a good start, I think this is something I’d like to be used dynamically through an entire season. If you’re running your starting running back into the ground, you should see him start to break down. Like in FIFA (again), make stamina matter over a multitude of games. Not just one.

And this from the EA blog; Running Out of Gas
With all these new weapons at your disposal, it’s easy to consider abusing them. For that reason, Madden NFL 25 will feature a new visual stamina meter that will drain as you execute moves. Juking, spinning and trucking will get you out of trouble, but they will also makes you tired. Consequently, if you run out of stamina during a play, you’ll see your player slow down. Once you’re out of gas, any additional moves you try will be much less effective.Stamina refills after each play, but there is a cumulative effect over the course of the game. So if you’re running the ball a lot, don’t expect your running back to be as fresh when you're trying to pound the rock in the fourth. In fact, he might be down to half-stamina or less depending on how hard you’ve been pushing him. You see a lot of NFL teams going to a two-back look for this exact reason, so it may be something you want to keep in mind for your Madden NFL team as well… http://www.easports.com/madden-nfl/n...en-25-run-free

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Gameplay Roundtable (UTC)

To be clear, I said "predictably" because I have a tendency to go against what appears to be popular opinion on these boards. No slight on you.

On 8-bit and 16-bit football video games - my recollection is that the concept of a wrap tackle didn't exist. All tackles were defenders diving at the ball carrier with one eight-angle sprite animation to choose from. To that end making a comparison isn't particularly useful. Either way, bringing up sprite-based games isn't relevant to the quality of the current game, as 2D and 3D are two entirely different animals.

As to Madden on Gen-6 and Gen-7 consoles being animated poorly, you're going to have to give specific examples because I simply don't see poor quality animations, any glaring issues with the inverse kinematics or in blending animations together, or what have you. There is player warping on occasion, and I allow that this has historically been a point of frustration in Madden, but all animation-driven sports games have warping to some extent. I think there are also issues where certain situations do not have proper animations placed into the game - OL/DL battles come to mind - but the animations present in the game and how they trigger and execute by and large all fit a football context as well.

I'm not going to entertain specific comparisons to other games because that is a no-no in the Madden forum.

In any case, I invite you to be more specific to your point that Madden animates poorly. I could be missing something.

Don't want to get too far off topic, but I also don't want to come off as trolling, so I'll give examples lol.

On the 8bit thing. I'm with you that the level of sophistication on those games makes it seem like there is no point to even talk about them when you have experienced the renaissance of gaming that we have now, but that doesn't mean that they were all created equally or that I , at least, can't see that there were things that some devs did better using the same tech.

On the PS1, Tiburon said that a polygon based Football game on that hardware wasn't possible. Gameday comes out, and they say... oops. Did 989 have access to a more powerful dev console than Tiburon? Absolutely not. That's just an example of a dev doing more with the same hardware than another, in general, EA/Tiburon in particular. I could cite many more but I'll stop there and get back to 8bit.

Though these two games are 8bit, I think that it is still easy to see that one is doing much more than the other. Don't know if you were a big Football VG fan on NES, but if you played Tecmo Bowl, you know that the game was a classic, but pretty limited. Had only 7 or 8 players, can't remember, and the graphics were good at the time, but it was a very flat 2D feeling game. Fast forward to when Play-Action Football came out and I can't see how it isn't readily apparent that this game is doing much more with the same hardware. The graphics were noticeably better, even for 8bit. It had 11 on 11. Had many more than 4 plays. Had better game play, and felt more 3D even though it was a 2D sprite game as well. Those games were not created equal. One pushed the envelope much further on the same hardware. That's the only point I was making. Whether it was graphics, animation, or actual voice over play by play, Madden's counterparts always seemed to push the envelope a little further, regardless of hardware. I just focused on the animation piece because that was what we were talking about. With that I'll get back to PS2 and Madden animations.

Without the benefit of being able to view YouTube at work, to get a video and dissect it and attach it to this post for comment, it is hard to explain what is wrong with the animations, but I'll try.

The animations on PS2 Madden were fairly smooth. They have that going for them. No hitching like current gen. There was no foot planting on PS2 though. There was no realistic body lean for change of direction. You basically just swerved when you made a turn kind of like how you did in Super Mario brothers if you were sprinting but then tried to stop. You would hold the joystick left but you would still be sliding right until you slowed down enough to start going left. It wasn't as exaggerated as it was on Super Mario, but that's the best way I can describe locomotion on PS2. It was sluggish and sliding and not at all realistic. The straight-line running does not look like a human running to me either. It looks better than current gen running, but it doesn't look like a human running either. It looks like a little kid taking choppy little steps at best, but definitely not like a premier athlete running. There is no indication of weight, The feet barely impact the ground and sudden changes in direction would induce a moonwalk. Yeah, I don't get why people are infatuated with those animations.

As far as special moves go it gets much, much worse. The juke was comical. Looks like you jump up from being scared to death and holler "help me Jesus!" The spin is the most absurd thing in the history of gaming. You could spin a distance of close to 10yds (slight exaggeration). How many highlight reels of Madden include kickoff or punt returns with people doing something superhuman with the spin move? Hell pretty much any sweep play or outside run done by a player online BEGINS with the spin move because it immediately spins you past the outside contain!

Now contrast that with 2K. The jukes look infinitely more realistic. Include a head fake like a real juke and can be chained together. The spin on 2K does not go anywhere. It is like how a spin is used in real life. To break out of a tackle or to prevent a defender from getting their hands on you or a good shot on you. No one spins 8yds out of the way and leaves a defender in a cloud of dust. I won't even go into the fact that there is foot planting, leaning, implied player weight, and a much better representation of momentum than the sliding that is/was Madden on last gen.

Really have no idea how anyone can prefer Madden animations to any other Football game (even NFL Fever animated better). The same goes for pretty much any EA Sports game. Live compared to NBA2k is like the Heat vs The Bucks. Top Spin vs Grand Slam Tennis? Again, I'll quit while I'm behind.

Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder, but I don't see much beauty in the way that any Madden game animates, or how their player models are drawn. If others do, then there is nothing I can say that will make them see what their eyes apparently are not.

[Valdarez]

Long article full of much hope and and potential in the round table. Though I quit following Madden designers/devs a couple years back, to this day I still don't know how anyone could sit down and play a game of Madden and not express concern or identify ongoing unaddressed issues related to most of the new features that have been announced for Madden 25. As a minor example, focusing on the running game, without fixing movement/locomotion throughout the game seems to be a focus on hype rather than substance to this gamer. Won't go further, as the forums are full of gamer angst across the board of elements that criss-cross the announced features.

[jpdavis82]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Gameplay Roundtable (UTC)

Long article full of much hope and and potential in the round table. Though I quit following Madden designers/devs a couple years back, to this day I still don't know how anyone could sit down and play a game of Madden and not express concern or identify ongoing unaddressed issues related to most of the new features that have been announced for Madden 25. As a minor example, focusing on the running game, without fixing movement/locomotion throughout the game seems to be a focus on hype rather than substance to this gamer. Won't go further, as the forums are full of gamer angst across the board of elements that criss-cross the announced features.

This is my opinion on that and I may be completely wrong, but I believe this is what TSS was talking about in regards to the devs are doing what they can with what they have to work with.... I believe this means they are giving us footplanting and improved blocking logic now instead of an overhaul in player movement and interactions because next gen is just around the corner. In order for some of these legacy issues to be fixed, the entire engine would need an overhaul on current gen consoles, next gen is too close for them to do that now. If it was 2009 and we were four years away, then I think you would see a player movement overhaul in Madden 25. I believe they started working on the next gen engine back during Madden 13 development, so they could have two-three years to work on/improve the next gen engine before the game is released(M25 later this year or with next Madden coming fall 2014), so we don't have another Madden 06 disaster on our hands.

It won't take long to know if this is the case or not, but I'm thinking with the next gen consoles we will have a completely different player movement engine which will also give us new ol/dl and wr/db interactions. For next gen I expect to see these improvements, as well as IE 3.0, new sideline models and interactions, and as I mentioned a complete overhaul in player movement, eliminating static movement and hunch back running.

I also believe that on May 21st we will get a teaser of the next gen Madden and at E3 an even bigger one.

[jmaj315]

if fullbacks, guards and tight ends block who i want them to.... i might not have to pass so much. I hate having to throw 60-70% of the time because my power O or I-form don't work as they should.

[jmaj315]

oh and i also forgot to ask if there are going to be chip blocks? Like the blue routes that we have now for TEs and RBs... They should chip the DE or LB before they run their flat or whatever. I believe the RBs just stand in the backfield for a second. I also think the TEs should be able to swim past the guy they are blocking (letting him go) instead of being stuck and not running their route.

[Trick13]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Gameplay Roundtable (UTC)

The running game has never been the biggest problem in the next generation of Madden Games. It's been the people who never throw a pass further than 5 yards and can stay in a game. If you play someone who really knows how to play Madden. Far as reading passing windows and not looking to throw a screen or a crossing route all game. It's a great game.

The problem is that you can actually be successful at the game never having to throw further than 5 yards.

That's the BS that ruins the game online. If you can't read a passing window you shouldn't be allowed to be able to move the ball. That's the NFL.

Imagine Jimmy Clausen being successful in the NFL. Well you can basically do the only thing he can do and be in a game in Madden.

I have played people that only throw crossing routes and screen passes. . That's what makes the game suck. I would love for them to bring the passing window back but since most Madden players online have no idea how to maneuver safeties and only are looking to throw 5 yard passes. They would stop buying the game.

Some of the short passing game effectiveness is directly tied to a really terrible decision that was made by EA when Ian Cummings was lead developer. That was to "water down" adaptive AI. Likely the dumbest move EA made ever in regard to game play.
Well, that and the terrible zone play make the short passing game overtly successful as the defense plays terrible in zone and never adjusts to repeated "strategies".

It feels like EA is making a concerted effort to make amends for these poor choices, but we are still waiting for features from legacy gen and I think it is directly related to those years where EA relied far too heavily on the tourney crowd for feedback. Thus they set the game back years and years - same with "grass graphics junkies" who got what they wanted - I can now pick out individual blades of grass, which adds absolutely zero to the experience. Really, I never notice the dang grass in actual NFL games, so why do I care about seeing "individual blades" in my dang video game.

But hey, thanks for the great graphics - you know I would rather have "signature running styles" and "signature throwing motions/drop backs" but thanks for the great grass it really makes it better when I am watching 22 players who run exactly the same way...

And for the record I want both great graphics and game play, but its a game not a painting and game play should always be first and foremost - if one or the other has to suffer - then graphics be blanked!!!