Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

[KBLover]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

To the OP, regarding foot movement and the forward lean, that's just cosmetic work. It's important, but it should be put on the back burner. Fixing OL/DL interaction is more important than anything regarding blitzing/line play. But I do like the point of getting players closer to the line, especially in long yardage situations. Great stuff by the way. This is the kind of knowledge and thinking that is missing from sports games.

OL/DL interaction includes blitzing and line play considering one job of the OL is the stop penetration and open offensive gaps and DL is trying to do the opposite, so both fight against each other - interaction.

Blitzing and blitz pick up is helped/hurt by this. If the DL in a 3-4 can occupy blockers - who's going to pick up the blitz? Yet, that's an element of OL/DL interaction.

They are not separate things. "OL/DL interaction" includes all of these principles.

And lean/footwork should NOT be just cosmetic. The fact they are is a big part of the problem. Lean should replicate leverage - gaining it, losing it, fighting for it, fighting to keep it. Footwork should be about establishing/keeping a base, powering through a block, driving the defender/blocker, movement on and after the snap, etc.

All of these things should work into the "moves" and their effectiveness. Ratings should emulate the abilities of the players to gain/keep/regain balance, leverage and positioning. There shouldn't be anything cosmetic.

[MaxxBoogieWS]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

The closest I ever got to the pre-snap movement is with the 1-5-5 def formation. Certain blitzes have different ways the LB's and DL move without manually moving or shifting over but the problem with that is the 1-5-5 def is really bad against the run. I couldn't seem to use it right at all trying to play sim style.

Just to be clear, I'm not shake blitzing lol. Some blitzes really require everyone to move in the box. I like what you all are saying with the o-line and d-line enhancement, but the 1-5-5 is the closest to you guy's pre-snap movement suggestion in M13. Try it out for yourselves.

[Trick13]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

...

Just to be clear, I'm not shake blitzing lol. ...

I am hoping that we get to a point where "shake blitz" is a non issue - and for that matter we get back to a place where we can manually move players around and they will stay where we put them...

If EA can, by early reports from community day events, get OL players to "attack the proper threat" in the run game, then they should be able to do the same for the passing game - maybe not for M25, but it should be a focus next year if it has not been addressed for M25...

HC09 had a feature where you could "save" setups for plays, it was limited to "hot routes" or "defensive adjustments". I would love to see this expanded to include player movement...

...like when CBs show off coverage - then as the QB goes into his snap count the CBs creep up into press position, or LBs "threatening" gaps (showing blitz) then pack peddling out, or a blitzer showing outside pressure then shifting in to the a gap

Also I would love to see the "snap/fake snap" ball controls expanded - tapping the button RB for fake snap X/A for actual snap would be a quick "hut/go" style, holding it down would be more like "red 47, red 47, set, down, hut hut" - that way you have control over the snap sequence to off-set the above suggested "pre-snap player movement", quick snap to try to catch the defense out of position - longer snap counts or fake snaps to "preview" the defense and bring into play the audible/counter audible chess game aspect...

[californ14]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

I would love the ability to save plays after making adjustments, on fly in the game and/or in practice....Doesn't seem like this would affect game play negatively or exploit anything, as it is already in the game...What it would do is take the micro management out of playing defense which can be very cumbersome and time consuming, taking away from a fair representation of how defenses can adjust on the fly....

Would also like a more expanded route tree...

[KANE699]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

I am wondering if EA could put in "color coded" defensive assignments on the DL that give a visual cue as to 1-gap or 2-gap assignments. Say dark red for 1-gap, then light orange or yellow for 2-gap.

I am sure that "nanos" are the reason why, but I hate that when I shift my DL left or right - they are still headed to the same gap, or technique that the original play called for - If I wanted them to go to those spots I would not waste my time shifting them over!!!!!!!!

Perhaps with Clint O. in house they could recruit some very "talented" "nano creators" to come in and show him how they attack the blocking logic so that Clint can take that info and devise a way to "counter" the nanos that would be as "realistic as possible" and thus free up some defensive techniques that are missing (my guess because they allow for too many nanos)...

They have some people down there that know how to abuse the game, the problem lies with wether or not they actually want to fix it.

[Trick13]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

They have some people down there that know how to abuse the game, the problem lies with wether or not they actually want to fix it.

Dude you are killing me... I am grateful that you are honest and letting me behind the the curtain, but it is disheartening to hear some of what you know...

[georgeakathaflyest]

Re: Rethinking Blitzing and Show Blitz in Madden NFL/NCAA Football

First I want to lay out some basic principles of blitzing by Leo Hand and John Rice that I think can be applicable to video games. I chose Hand and Rice because they are explicit in their descriptions. What they say explicitly are implied by others such as Ted Amorisi, Mike McDaniels, Bill Arnsparger. These names are important as they have coached and continue to coach defensive football. Hand has written several books on 101 Stunts for a host of defenses (3-4; 46 Bear; Weak Eagle; Fire Zone ect). Rice also has written several texts on Nickel and Dime defenses (Coaching Nickel and Dime Defenses; Defending the Spread Offense). Second, I want to highlight what I see as problems in Madden/NCAA with respect to blitzing and the use of Show Blitz in relationship to the principles that Hand and Rice outline and what is implied by the other coaches mentioned above. Finally, I want to talk possible solutions. Coffee please!!!

First I want to begin by showcasing some real life blitzes. This will provide a frame of reference for us. Then I look to look at what Leo Hand and John Rice outline in their respective books on Stunts and Nickel and Dime defenses as principles of blitzing and rushing the passer.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/TD9G34e5ufo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Leo Hand on Blitzing Principles

Leo Hand highlights twenty principles for blitzing, all of which I will not elaborate on here. They cannot program the mental side, such as film study on a blocker to discover what techniques he likes to use. There are some things that I think they can program such as the following, all of which are showcased in the above video:

1) Blitzers should be moving, attacking and penetrating the line of scrimmage on the snap of the football. The only exceptions are delayed blitzes. Going back to every slice of footage in the video, you will notice that there was movement prior to and on the snap.

2) Feet must always be moving even when engaged with blockers. This is why I like that animation by the DE's in the NCAA video. It actually looks good. Never stop your feet.

3) Pass Rush moves should be predetermined and a secondary move should also be a part of the plan in the event the rushers primary move is a "failure." This is important right here. In Madden/NCAA there are no secondary moves because once the rusher "loses" that's the end of the interaction. I think the short branching animations may be a problem in this regard. Maybe they would need to branch more win/lose interactions together for the secondary move.

4) If it is a run the blitzer still has to read keys and pressure the blocks. He cannot just run to the B gap just because the blitz is designed there when the run is going the other way. He might start by charging the B gap, but if it is run he has to be able to change course and trail the football.

John Rice on Pass Rushers primarily defensive ends and edge rushers

1) Explode on the snap
2) Maintain a good forward lean. Big problem in most football games as they tend to stand straight up and run after the snap. This forward lean should be maintained until there is contact with a blocker.
3) What technique will be used? Slap and rip? Slap the blockers hands down and then rip underneath. Butt and Bull? Bow the neck/head while simultaneously grabbing the blockers jersey and driving him back into the QB.
4) OL need to be graded as quick set up guys or give ground guys. The former are more susceptible to finesse moves while the latter or more susceptible to power moves.

Ok now that a frame of reference has been established let's look at NCAA 13 and identify some issues with respect to blitzing and the use of Show Blitz.

Let's take a basic zone blitz like Nickel 33, 3 Overload Fire.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/CSdJ5iYoZ3k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

1) Nobody is attacking the line prior to the snap. It's blitz from this spot.
2) There is no noticeable explosion on the snap and no body lean until contact by the defenders.
3) Barring that one animation feet do not move enough.

What I did not show in the video was the use of Show Blitz. All it did was move guys in worse position, especially the MLB. As I ask at the end, why are we having to set up blitzes for them to be effective? Blitzing is about timing and attacking the line at the snap. Why is that backside Offensive Tackle still running to the other side to pick up a blitzer? I will correct myself, overloads CAN work, you just have to move a lot of guys around. Kinda mehhh IMO.

Ultimately, blitzing is missing its primary elements, timing and attacking prior to the snap. Because there is not much movement pre-snap, the rushers casually move out of their stance with no urgency. Defenders are not running with a lean. Just about everything from Hand and Rice is absent here.

Possible solutions:

1) Blitzes need to have built in pre-snap movement that is concerned with attacking and not just lining up in a different spot.

2) Pre-snap movement by all rushers can be placed in the users hand by changing how Show Blitz works. Show blitz would only cause the players that are blitzing to begin to move. So when look at a blitz like 3 Overload Fire I could shift the linebackers to the right and then later show blitz and the only players that should move are the ROLB, MLB and the NB. The NB has to creep off the slot and attack the edge.

In the end, I don't think the user should be setting up blitzes in order for them to be effective. Yeah, it goes against the grain of how competitive guys have been playing Madden for a very long time. I just don't think it is something the user should be doing. At best the user should be responsible for timing and causing the blitzing defenders to move in unison.

What sayeth thee?

LBzrule, you should definitely talk to somebody within the Madden developers & try to request this to be put into the game. This would definitely add to the realism of the game & make things feel as if we're actually playing a defensive chess match