Sim vs Arcade: Madden Debate

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Sim vs Arcade: Madden Debate

ya sure that be sick.

complete control...give it to me.

Let me ask you this, for all the talk of precision modifiers, foot planting, cuts and momentum in M25, how much, if any, of that is tied to injuries? I know there is now a fatigue meter, which is good but how much of these "moves" and the things a User has control of in general, like jump catches/INTs, tackling, hurdling, sudden change of direction, etc, have some element of injury or body strain to them?

[hanzsomehanz]

I will go as far as saying, simulation is akin to the world of civilization. In contrast to this society with rules and laws and governed practices is another world that is akin to riding the highways with no speed markers.

A game like NFL Blitz still needs markers such as first downs and yardage lines and an out of bounds boundary. In the same fashion, Fifa Street and NBA Ballers all have the neccessary markers for boundaries.

This tells me that a game cannot be pure sim nor pure arcade. There are inherent strands of dna from the other in each concept.

Can you simulate arcade? Can you simulate anarchy? Simulation loosely means to translate.

Cuttingteeth said, judge how games of old have started and evolved. I can vouch that many were clouded with ignorance much like the first of our species has had to evolve to where we are now.

It is easy to take the arcade and erect it into Sim because that is much of how a sport itself evolves in the infancy of its inception. It is also an ever cultivating process to grow from the grassroots.

Fig. 1

This off-season the NFL licensed some new rules and also removed some. It is like those almost every year amd every year their is a review of the product and rules and player safety are as much an integral part of the business model as enterainment and charity are.

What the NFL Board of Governance and NFLPA are watchful for each year is *indicators for success measured against their target outcomes.

My indicators for Sim progression in Madden

*More awareness on rules
*More authentic player DNA
*Popularized playcalling

Q Does Madden capitalize on flagging penalties as they are called in the NFL?

Q Does Madden's penalty system match the penalty statistic averages over the last five years in the NFL?

Q Do Madden household names play true to their real life counterparts?

Q Is the playcalling in Madden up to par with what we see in today's game?

These are a few questions I would brainstorm as a Madden developer on the basis of triggering more simulated NFL outcomes.

* My markers for success would be the congruence between the actual product and the video game product in respect to how animations and statistics are simulated.

On a sidenote, communities with less civilized roads and streets actually have less accidents than their evolved counterparts. In furtherance, the NFL statistically has had fewer severe injuries when they wore fewer safety armor.

This tells me that sometimes the answer to our wishes can contain a tinge of counter intuitive logic that defies our planned reasoning.

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[DeuceDouglas]

Re: Sim vs Arcade: Madden Debate

Just 2 fairly arbitrary labels that are different to almost every single person due to the varying levels of both they actually want in the game.

This.

This is exactly why I never get involved in these debates. My 'sim' is different than your 'sim'. Sure certain things can be seemingly universally one way or the other, but there's even more that could be debated by both sides for days upon years. To each their own. I'm not entitled to tell someone that they're view or opinion is wrong.

[Jr.]

Re: Sim vs Arcade: Madden Debate

I want a simulation game & I want to have the ability to tell my player to do something.

If he can or can't is predicated upon the simulation aspect of the game.

Maybe he can't make the play because of skills etc, but i want the option/tools to be able to have complete control of my teams and players.

if I want to drop all 11 defenders into hooks I want to be able to do that.

make the game as simulation as possible thats what I want.

Has there ever been a defensive play in the NFL where the defense didn't rush 1 single person and had everyone playing a hook zone?

If not (and there hasn't been), what exactly would you be simulating by doing that?

And can't you already do this in Madden with defensive hot routes, if you have enough time?

[howboutdat]

Re: Sim vs Arcade: Madden Debate

no SIM and Arcade cannot "co-exsist" in the same game . Not in a way to make both types of players happy.The Lobby Arcade players love to use any and every exploit the game has to win, its a win at any cost type of mind set. Its why you hardly find a SIM player wanting to play a random lobby game. SIM players expect realism in gameplay. They want it to be like a real football game you watch on tv. There are much higher standards for this. Which is why so many complaints happen with Madden. Year after year they allow glitches to the AI in areas , that after the first couple of months of it being out , there are tons of videos showing peps who to exploit them , and then you have trouble on your hands, if your wanting a real like football game. only way to fix it , is either make two dif games ( which you would think ea would love, more sales!!!) or make an option in the game itself , where when you boot up , you pick which "style" player you consider yourself, and then you get to play either the SIM version , or the Lobby version. thats about the only way it can be on the same disc and be ok .They are just two totally dif mindsets when it comes to a football game.

[hanzsomehanz]

....Auto Racing games seem to continuously strive for realism in how cars handle and interact with their environment....

Glad you pointed this out.

*Continually striving for realism
*How objects handle and interact with their enviornment

These are cornerstones.

In Madden, the continual strive for realism can be furthered in the stock of finances in career modes. It also rears its head in the relevance to get unis down to a T. I cannot fathom a Racing Sim not embracig the specs of their vehicles.

I only say a little but continually striving for realism covers the spread of what is embellished in a simulation product.

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[sgibs7]

Re: Sim vs Arcade: Madden Debate

Has there ever been a defensive play in the NFL where the defense didn't rush 1 single person and had everyone playing a hook zone?

If not (and there hasn't been), what exactly would you be simulating by doing that?

And can't you already do this in Madden with defensive hot routes, if you have enough time?

is there a rule that says you cant drop all 11 defenders into hooks.

so, theoretically coaches can have their teams do that.

you can currently do this in madden. my point is that I dont want things like that to leave the game. That is the type of control I mean. I'm the coach when I'm playing I make the rules for my team.

[Jr.]

Re: Sim vs Arcade: Madden Debate

is there a rule that says you cant drop all 11 defenders into hooks.

so, theoretically coaches can have their teams do that.

you can currently do this in madden. my point is that I dont want things like that to leave the game. That is the type of control I mean. I'm the coach when I'm playing I make the rules for my team.

So the game gives you what you want currently, right?

[sgibs7]

Re: Sim vs Arcade: Madden Debate

So the game gives you what you want currently, right?

no, it doesn't. There is a lot more I would like to see, but I still love it.

[Only1LT]

Re: Sim vs Arcade: Madden Debate

I want a simulation game & I want to have the ability to tell my player to do something.

If he can or can't is predicated upon the simulation aspect of the game.

Maybe he can't make the play because of skills etc, but i want the option/tools to be able to have complete control of my teams and players.

if I want to drop all 11 defenders into hooks I want to be able to do that.

make the game as simulation as possible thats what I want.

I got you, but I'm not sure if you got me.

I was speaking specifically about the movement of the players and the animations. Having total control over strategy is something I'm fine with.

Many people are against having animations that force them to lose control, however without them you can never simulate deceleration, proper changes of direction, loss of balance, momentum, etc.

Those are things that Tiburon refuses to implement because they fear that the tourney crowd that they cater to will not stand for it. That's why the game moves like it's not of this world.

[howboutdat]

Re: Sim vs Arcade: Madden Debate

no, it doesn't. There is a lot more I would like to see......

i think millions second that motion. like that video we was supposed to see yesterday , just a small example but an example still. on top of hundreds of other things so many would like to see happen. with this title.

[sgibs7]

Re: Sim vs Arcade: Madden Debate

I got you, but I'm not sure if you got me.

I was speaking specifically about the movement of the players and the animations. Having total control over strategy is something I'm fine with.

Many people are against having animations that force them to lose control, however without them you can never simulate deceleration, proper changes of direction, loss of balance, momentum, etc.

Those are things that Tiburon refuses to implement because they fear that the tourney crowd that they cater to will not stand for it. That's why the game moves like it's not of this world.

ya I want total control over the players as well. If everytihng you mentioned is added in (simulation part) than i wouldnt be able to do a lot of things, but I want the option to at least try.

Maybe my guy tears a knee in the process, but give me the option to at least try.

Pretty bold of you to assume. Tourney crowd is small.

[hanzsomehanz]

Has there ever been a defensive play in the NFL where the defense didn't rush 1 single person and had everyone playing a hook zone?

If not (and there hasn't been), what exactly would you be simulating by doing that?

And can't you already do this in Madden with defensive hot routes, if you have enough time?

In fairness - there are men who revolutionized playcalling staples like the motion offense which was once historically a refreshing act but is now a household chore.

Simulation has its boundaries.

NFL draws those boundaries first and Madden can then implement the new and old into their own product.

A Sim enviornment can allow for the user to coach their team however they please so long as the real life risk:reward factors are infered on the possible outcomes that may unfold from user-defined actions and decision making, good or bad.

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[sgibs7]

Re: Sim vs Arcade: Madden Debate

i think millions second that motion. like that video we was supposed to see yesterday , just a small example but an example still. on top of hundreds of other things so many would like to see happen. with this title.

you miss quoted me.


you forgot, but I still love it.

[Only1LT]

Re: Sim vs Arcade: Madden Debate

ya I want total control over the players as well. If everytihng you mentioned is added in (simulation part) than i wouldnt be able to do a lot of things, but I want the option to at least try.

Maybe my guy tears a knee in the process, but give me the option to at least try.

Pretty bold of you to assume. Tourney crowd is small.

Where did I say that the tourney crowd is small. I said that EA/Tiburon caters to the tourney crowd. I would think that the people you cater to wouldn't be a small segment.

You can try, but you will lose control if it's realistic. You can try and cut too quickly, but if you lose your balance, then what? You watch an animation play out where you fall. Or you watch an animation where you grab your knee cause you tore your ACL. Either way, you will need to watch an animation that takes away control in order to play out a realistic set of consequences.

You can not be totally in control and still have a simulation any more than you can take a hairpin turn in Gran Turismo at 250mph and not slam into a wall.