Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)

[LBzrule]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)

One thing I'm curious about BezO. Are you saying you want to make these changes at the line (and during hurry up) and essentially be able to audible to every formation/play regardless of personnel? Or are you saying you just want it to be easier to make these alterations before coming out to the line?

Chase I'm not sure what Bezo is saying but I'll just chime in. I don't think there is anything wrong with coming out in a 4WR look with a FB and TE and a HB and then audibling to an I formation. Nor do I think there is anything wrong with doing that same thing from a Gun Empty TE formation. You know why? I've seen it done. Take a look at these two diagrams. One has the Ravens in a Gun empty formation, but the personnel is Pro personnel. The other is 4WR but the personnel is Pro. And they have shifted to I formation out of this sparingly.

I suppose the issue is giving a person in Madden that kind of freedom they don't do it sparingly. They do it every play until it is dealt with but a person basically has to bend over backwards to deal with it.

[LBzrule]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)

Just to spell out what is going on in those screens.

In the top one,

FB Leach is in the slot at the bottom and HB Pierce is in the slot at the top. Boldin is at the top and Smith is at the bottom of the screen with Dickson lined up at TE.

In the second diagram

Dickson is in the slot at the bottom of the screen with Leach on the perimeter at the bottom of the screen. Smith and Boldin line up Twins at the top of the screen. Why would anyone have a problem shifting to a basic I twins from the bottom look or shifting to a basic I formation from the top look? If people were regulated to shifting once like some other game did in 2k8 I don't see why this would be a problem. Anyways... just my thoughts on it.

[BezO]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)

I completely understand the fundamental issue with limiting formation sub personnel but I don't see what that has to do with audibles into players "out of position". Meaning in the NFL why would a team ever audible from 5WR to a goal line formation?

I know that's extreme example but that's the kind of stuff that happens in Madden. Again, I get that you are saying that's not against the NFL rules, which it actually probably is technically with certain restrictions on shifts, players being lined up correctly, etc, but for the sake of this discussion we will say it's not. Anyway, the game would have to account for the real world risk/reward to doing something like that, which it currently doesn't.

They do it to see what the defense will do. If my TEs are great route runners & pass catchers and your LBs are terrible in coverage, I might want to see how you'll line up against 3 wide TEs.

I know you remember the 80s Skins. THAT'S shifting.

Nothing is illegal about shifting unless you don't set for a full second or don't have the correct number of men on the LOS.

I guess there's some risk. Illegal formation, offsides...

I guess there is no need to go any further into that because we disagree on what to do until that's the case. I would agree with you that if audibles are going to be in the game, then they need to be realistic but I disagree that until that happens to leave them as is. My stance is pretty clear that until x can be done right, it should be limited appropriately to prevent exploitation.

That's where you and others lose me because what you basically seem to be saying is leave it broken and unlimited, if it can't be fixed and unlimited.

No, I don't want it left as is. I want it fixed with no time wasted on band-aids. I think what we really disagree on is why the game is the way it is now. Us at OS, Madden survey takers... Nearly everyone is asking for band-aids. EA gave us band-aids.

Supposedly there's a team ready to make a realistic game, but they have to spend time actually fixing what's been covered by band-aids all these years. But instead of asking for real fixes, we're still asking for band-aids.

Real fixes go further and can be built on. Fix something like blocking interaction and address pass rushing, the pocket, containing running QBs, CBs that tackle better than they should, defenders disengaging too easily, blockers engaging too long, and a host of micro issues that folks have wanted band-aids for.

How many micro issues would proper foot planting address? How many would tiered defensive play calling address?

[BezO]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)

One thing I'm curious about BezO. Are you saying you want to make these changes at the line (and during hurry up) and essentially be able to audible to every formation/play regardless of personnel? Or are you saying you just want it to be easier to make these alterations before coming out to the line?

A picture can say 1,000 words.

Thank you LB! I've been trying to say that for several pages.

Now let's aim for that instead of basing our suggestions around what a cheeser does. No matter what they do, the game is just 1s & 0s. It can always be cheated.

[californ14]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)

Chase I'm not sure what Bezo is saying but I'll just chime in. I don't think there is anything wrong with coming out in a 4WR look with a FB and TE and a HB and then audibling to an I formation. Nor do I think there is anything wrong with doing that same thing from a Gun Empty TE formation. You know why? I've seen it done. Take a look at these two diagrams. One has the Ravens in a Gun empty formation, but the personnel is Pro personnel. The other is 4WR but the personnel is Pro. And they have shifted to I formation out of this sparingly.

I suppose the issue is giving a person in Madden that kind of freedom they don't do it sparingly. They do it every play until it is dealt with but a person basically has to bend over backwards to deal with it.

The problem is coming out in a 4 or 5 WR set, with 4 or 5 actual WR's and then going into a base formation with WR's taking over TE and RB positions...

Madden attributes are useless and may never be addressed; even if they are addressed it could take years, especially since Madden has been around since ~1989 with this same setup, I assume, has always been present, I see no changes in the future...Thus limiting formations by personnel is the answer EA can give as they have no other option outside of rewriting the whole game...I doubt EA will rewrite the whole game, even for next-gen, but if they do I would guess that is still years down the road....In fact, EA won't even comment about their useless attributes...

I feel sorry, almost, for the employee that has to sit and update and create all the attributes to continue the deception....

[LBzrule]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)

The problem is coming out in a 4 or 5 WR set, with 4 or 5 actual WR's and then going into a base formation with WR's taking over TE and RB positions...

Madden attributes are useless and may never be addressed; even if they are addressed it could take years, especially since Madden has been around since ~1989 with this same setup, I assume, has always been present, I see no changes in the future...Thus limiting formations by personnel is the answer EA can give as they have no other option outside of rewriting the whole game...I doubt EA will rewrite the whole game, even for next-gen, but if they do I would guess that is still years down the road....In fact, EA won't even comment about their useless attributes...

I feel sorry, almost, for the employee that has to sit and update and create all the attributes to continue the deception....

I know that problem. But that means what I wrote was not read carefully enough. There is nothing wrong with lining up in 4WR formation with Pro personnel. As long as I'm audibling to formations based on Pro Personnel what is the problem? I never said anything lining up with 4 WR's (spread personnel) and then audibling to formation that does not use 4WR spread as personnel, namely Pro.

[TombSong]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)

There is another issue that needs dealing with in relation to this thread and it ties in with other issues with the game. There is a set of Madden players who do not wish to have to think for themselves or have to deal with any real strategic aspect of playing a football game.

When faced with a offensive/defensive attack they have never seen before. Their first response to it is to cry cheese. Since they don't know how to counter whats happening, it MUST be something wrong with the game, or the way the opponent is playing.

There are elements of the game that are in fact exploits and can reduce the game down to you having to have "Madden Knowledge" or doing really silly stuff to counter it. However I think people need to be more specific at describing what they think is wrong with the game so the community can identify if its in fact cheese, or "WHINE."

Me and LBZrule have played a guy that does some stuff you would not believe, and if he played in most leagues on this board would probably be up 42-7 against 90% of us by half time(in a 4 minute quarter game at that)
I can only imagine the crying that would come about here as a result of having played him. ( I sure cried a lot after several azz whompins from him)

I think Bezo makes some good points. We gotta stop asking for band aids and start addressing the real problems with the game or nothing will ever get resolved. Proof of this is the last 8 years of football games.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)

A picture can say 1,000 words.

Thank you LB! I've been trying to say that for several pages.

Now let's aim for that instead of basing our suggestions around what a cheeser does. No matter what they do, the game is just 1s & 0s. It can always be cheated.

Bezo, we both know what currently happens in M13 is not representing formation shifts, that's some other stuff entirely, lol. That said you are claiming or seem to be, that if Tiburon didn't have us asking for band-aids they would have actually fixed the underline issues with audibles in M25 but no. The underline issues are too vast, much like you and LBz know all too well with regard to the OL/DL being connected and the ball being tethered to receivers. To put it frankly, Madden on the current consoles is a lost cause, in regards to fundamental football representation, because the foundation is FUBAR. You know this better than me, so what people are asking for is the best that Tiburon can do with the mess right now, UNTIL they can start over and do it right.

Every reasonable person would prefer a fundamental fix over a band-aid, I was just harping on the same thing the other day in a thread about AI but we ain't getting that this gen. Heck, "we" shouldn't be expected to tell football game devs how to make realistic football games anyway and hopefully next-gen, we won't be.

[infemous]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)

I think one thing that'd be most helpful is seeing a list of the personnel coming onto the field. If I see Tavon Austin coming out alongside Lance Kendricks, Jared Cook, Brian Quick and Chris Givens, I would know that it could be a 5 wide set, or it could be an offset I.

However if I see Brian Quick, Lance Kendricks, Zac Stacy, Chris Givens and Stedman Bailey - I understand that its more likely this will be a 3 wide receiver set with either Kendricks at FB or TE and Stacy at HB.

Knowing who is coming onto the field is more important than knowing 'which position' is coming onto the field. Using the Cobb example... If I see 5 GB WRs coming onto the field but don't see Cobb, I sell out stopping the pass and don't worry about potential run.

I would have to line up my defense accordingly because of the chances all players could line up at WR. I could come out in base D and defend the run but then be caught out or line up in a nickel or dime set.

This is of course considering that the game is based on physics and there is some sort of AI that would establish who lined up on who of course...

I think what is being forgotten is that with the new audible system, we now have the majority of our playbook at our disposal unlike before where we were limited to a handful of plays.

Within this would be a handful of plays that include motion within it. such as splitting the HB out wide and running a route or motioning a FB from out wide in line for a run play.

The same ideas can be used, just in a different way, without opening the game up to absolute cheese which we must endure atm.

Bezo, in principle, I agree with what you say about not being limited and that it should all be fixed but in reality EA will not fix all the requisite things immediately, as much as we ask them to. Considering the likelihood of them taking AT LEAST 2/3 years to have some sort of realistic physic system, adaptive AI and realistic ratings, I'd rather have this audible system for the time being until then.

[LBzrule]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)

Bezo, we both know what currently happens in M13 is not representing formation shifts, that's some other stuff entirely, lol. That said you are claiming or seem to be, that if Tiburon didn't have us asking for band-aids they would have actually fixed the underline issues with audibles in M25 but no. The underline issues are too vast, much like you and LBz know all too well with regard to the OL/DL being connected and the ball being tethered to receivers. To put it frankly, Madden on the current consoles is a lost cause, in regards to fundamental football representation, because the foundation is FUBAR. You know this better than me, so what people are asking for is the best that Tiburon can do with the mess right now, UNTIL they can start over and do it right.

Every reasonable person would prefer a fundamental fix over a band-aid, I was just harping on the same thing the other day in a thread about AI but we ain't getting that this gen. Heck, "we" shouldn't be expected to tell football game devs how to make realistic football games anyway and hopefully next-gen, we won't be.

To the bolded: I have accepted that which is the reason why I don't post much in here anymore.

[californ14]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)

I know that problem. But that means what I wrote was not read carefully enough. There is nothing wrong with lining up in 4WR formation with Pro personnel. As long as I'm audibling to formations based on Pro Personnel what is the problem? I never said anything lining up with 4 WR's (spread personnel) and then audibling to formation that does not use 4WR spread as personnel, namely Pro.

Your comment was read properly, just what you pointed out is not the issue that is being debated or addressed by EA, as a whole....It is about preventing people from lining up in 4 and 5 WR sets and then calling an audible to a base set...The programming does not know teh difference between a TE in the TE spot or a 5th string WR

If someone wants to come out in a base set and then go to a spread offense, I doubt anyone cares....But to call a spread formation with a TE and FB in slots and then going to a base is formation, with the defense having no way to adjust or see the offensive personnel is a problem....

Basically, EA Tiburon also needs to do what is in NCAA football and show the user what players are in the play called in the play call screen, by the offense....

[Haze88]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)

If they restrict audibles by positions, I think there should be alternate positions for players. For example if I use 12 personnel with New England, I should be able to audible to 4 and 5 Wide sets with Gronk and Hernandez in the slots. I like the idea but fear the implementation

[infemous]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)

If they restrict audibles by positions, I think there should be alternate positions for players. For example if I use 12 personnel with New England, I should be able to audible to 4 and 5 Wide sets with Gronk and Hernandez in the slots. I like the idea but fear the implementation

You can motion them to WR tho.

[adriano]

Re: Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)

Instead of limiting audibles, they could have had false starts or penalties
increase. Like offsides etc.. I do not play online anymore, when I did.
I hated guys who used 1% of their playbook and relied on Audibles all
game..

At least they are trying to address making the online game better..

[harlemkiid149]

this is a great move for the offense allowing the play caller to have a more realistic set of audibles and yet it limits users/cheesers who use teams like packers,patriots,saints etc from going into 5 wide sets to 2WR sets and having WR's line up as TE's and just jet pass linebackers which is unrealistic so in the end it levels out for the D and O