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  • 2_headedmonster
    MVP
    • Oct 2011
    • 2262

    #61
    Re: NBA Live 14 Video - Quick Glimpse of BounceTek Demo

    My problem with the whole "live ball" thing in a video game is that if done right it can be amazing and provide numerous satisfying moments, but it takes SO MUCH for it to be done right and be believable.

    There has to be some factor of strength to determine the effort required to knock the ball loose otherwise you have instances of elbow blocks and hips knocking the ball free for turnovers. Then there has to be animations to show that even though the ball wasnt knocked loose, there was indeed contact.

    There has to be a multitude of contextual animations to simulate the ball handler protecting the ball all of which need to be tied to awareness. But then you have the crowd that doesn’t want to be altered involuntarily by the defensive steal attempts so either you have to make the animations very minimal or have to include a manual protect button that would have to be used constantly throughout the game.

    Also in the real world it’s a challenge a getting into position to make a play on the ball, it’s a skill combined with instinct, timing and footwork developed after years of practice. In a video game all it takes is a flick of the stick and you are in position, so something major would have to be done to footwork to makes sure that “real” limitations are placed on movement to minimize the exploitation of the “live ball”.

    I just feel like it’s a really tall task, especially by a company that has proven to struggle to capture the game of basketball and is just jumping back into the market; on a new system might I add.
    Last edited by 2_headedmonster; 07-03-2013, 03:16 AM.

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    • Boilerbuzz
      D* B**rs!
      • Jul 2002
      • 5155

      #62
      First, if you think this "live ball" talk from EA will extend uninhibited to all of gameplay, you're fooling yourself. Secondly, isn't there a discussion about the horrors of "live ball" in a video game?

      Comment

      • quehouston
        Cheeseproof.com
        • Nov 2008
        • 724

        #63
        Re: NBA Live 14 Video - Quick Glimpse of BounceTek Demo

        Originally posted by Boilerbuzz
        First, if you think this "live ball" talk from EA will extend uninhibited to all of gameplay, you're fooling yourself. Secondly, isn't there a discussion about the horrors of "live ball" in a video game?
        Fifa has had live ball for years, and it is arguably the best sports game on the market, so it is possible. However, of course that is soccer. This is basketball.

        I feel like if this is implemented correctly, this would be the ultimate feature of a basketball simulation. In real life, you cant just dribble all willy nilly and not expect consequences. If you are up against a great defender and you are showing them the ball all game, then of course they are gonna take it from you. You have to protect the ball. That brings up the point made by 2 Headed Monster a couple posts earlier. If they are gonna have live ball, then we have to have some kind of protect button to put bodies between the man and the ball. Plus this brings up the possibility of inadvertent loose balls, but doesnt that happen in 2k now, even with the coded ball?

        I just feel bounceTek is gonna open up ample opportunities on the offensive side as well as the defensive side of the ball. I feel like taking care of the the ball is gonna be challenging, as it is in real life. If you watch an NBA game, you dont see players constantly doing crossovers all game, trying to beat their man. You have to pick your spots, which is a sign of simulation to me. The intangibility of the ball in 2k is extremely frustrating, especially when you time your steal perfectly.

        But of course, some people love just being able to unload an insane amount of dribble moves without consequence. For those people, there will always be 2k (Unless they are doing something different, but I wouldn't bank on it). If Live actually gets this and the physics right, it could be the future of basketball games.
        Sixers/Panthers/Tarheels
        Cheeseproof.com: Sim Sports gaming blog, featuring podcasts, guides, and articles on your favorite sports titles from 2k to FIFA.
        Commish of USGL 2k16, featured by Da_Czar on the Sim Hangout.
        @_quehouston and @cheeseproof

        Comment

        • I Djm
          MVP
          • Feb 2011
          • 1297

          #64
          Re: NBA Live 14 Video - Quick Glimpse of BounceTek Demo

          Originally posted by JerzeyReign
          I hate to continue the comparison but 2k has done the live ball thing and the community went nuts. Remember blocks by elbows and balls bouncing off player's heels on the break? All live ball failures. If we learned anything about EA Sports gaming over this generation is that the idea sounds great but implementing it is normally sub par.

          If they have figured out, great. But if they did they would post a vid, we all know they have something.
          i think the most important thing with live ball is it has to work the same across all difficultly levels 2k12 was pain to play on HoF when it worked fine for you but the cpu could do anything and not be punished
          Hand Down,Man Down

          Comment

          • stillfeelme
            MVP
            • Aug 2010
            • 2411

            #65
            Re: NBA Live 14 Video - Quick Glimpse of BounceTek Demo

            Originally posted by I Djm
            i think the most important thing with live ball is it has to work the same across all difficultly levels 2k12 was pain to play on HoF when it worked fine for you but the cpu could do anything and not be punished

            After listening to that Scott O'Gallagher video I think I have formed my opinion that BounceTek is normal dribbling add in advance moves plus signature dribbling plus physics of the ball, dribbler and defender. I think the ball will be live. Meaning you choose the wrong move at the wrong time you will set yourself up for a turnover or deflection. The physics part is the real key. Most think of physics as in contact but I think they are trying to get a hold of momentum, acceleration and foot planting which is also physics but more in line with how elite ball handlers break down a defender. The one on one dribbler to defense interaction has not been represented well in any game yet. We will see come this fall/winter on next gen how successful they are but I must admit it sounds good.

            Comment

            • 2_headedmonster
              MVP
              • Oct 2011
              • 2262

              #66
              Re: NBA Live 14 Video - Quick Glimpse of BounceTek Demo

              Originally posted by quehouston
              If you watch an NBA game, you dont see players constantly doing crossovers all game, trying to beat their man. You have to pick your spots, which is a sign of simulation to me. The intangibility of the ball in 2k is extremely frustrating, especially when you time your steal perfectly.

              But of course, some people love just being able to unload an insane amount of dribble moves without consequence. For those people, there will always be 2k (Unless they are doing something different, but I wouldn't bank on it). If Live actually gets this and the physics right, it could be the future of basketball games.

              Well to be honest, on 2k if you boost the steal success to 60 and the steal success to 55 then the ball basically becomes "live". For steal attempts anyway. But for it to be completely "live" or independent, i think it would be a much larger undertaking.

              Just thinking about all the measures i take to protect the ball when i actually play vs the number of contextual animations it would require to convey that just seems like a massive task. Not to mention that these animations have to be smooth, realistic, concise and evenly transition into other crossover and footwork animations.... yikes

              Comment

              • quehouston
                Cheeseproof.com
                • Nov 2008
                • 724

                #67
                Re: NBA Live 14 Video - Quick Glimpse of BounceTek Demo

                Originally posted by 2_headedmonster
                Well to be honest, on 2k if you boost the steal success to 60 and the steal success to 55 then the ball basically becomes "live". For steal attempts anyway. But for it to be completely "live" or independent, i think it would be a much larger undertaking.

                Just thinking about all the measures i take to protect the ball when i actually play vs the number of contextual animations it would require to convey that just seems like a massive task. Not to mention that these animations have to be smooth, realistic, concise and evenly transition into other crossover and footwork animations.... yikes
                I feel like there's a possibility that it could be built into the Ignite Engine.

                I watched the Ignite trailers, and they are saying that players are aware of each other on the court. They brace themselves for interaction before it happens. So could this mean that players would automatically protect the ball, due to the engine?
                Sixers/Panthers/Tarheels
                Cheeseproof.com: Sim Sports gaming blog, featuring podcasts, guides, and articles on your favorite sports titles from 2k to FIFA.
                Commish of USGL 2k16, featured by Da_Czar on the Sim Hangout.
                @_quehouston and @cheeseproof

                Comment

                • 2_headedmonster
                  MVP
                  • Oct 2011
                  • 2262

                  #68
                  Re: NBA Live 14 Video - Quick Glimpse of BounceTek Demo

                  Originally posted by quehouston
                  I feel like there's a possibility that it could be built into the Ignite Engine.

                  I watched the Ignite trailers, and they are saying that players are aware of each other on the court. They brace themselves for interaction before it happens. So could this mean that players would automatically protect the ball, due to the engine?
                  At this point, at least for me, its just a tagline tied to a prerendered video. I need to see it in live action to see what it actually does and if it can apply.

                  Comment

                  • thedream2k13
                    MVP
                    • Jan 2013
                    • 1507

                    #69
                    Re: NBA Live 14 Video - Quick Glimpse of BounceTek Demo

                    Originally posted by Boilerbuzz
                    First, if you think this "live ball" talk from EA will extend uninhibited to all of gameplay, you're fooling yourself. Secondly, isn't there a discussion about the horrors of "live ball" in a video game?
                    live ball worked in 2k12 its just people werent ready for it. If a bodypart hits the ball it should react thats why its called " LIVE". People just complained because hey were having to many turnovers.
                    #SIMNATION

                    fighting for truth, justice and SIMULATION gameplay

                    Comment

                    • Boilerbuzz
                      D* B**rs!
                      • Jul 2002
                      • 5155

                      #70
                      Re: NBA Live 14 Video - Quick Glimpse of BounceTek Demo

                      Originally posted by TUSS11
                      The game's on the screen during the interview.
                      Reread my post. There was another demo of the actual tech. Not what was in the video.

                      Comment

                      • Boilerbuzz
                        D* B**rs!
                        • Jul 2002
                        • 5155

                        #71
                        Re: NBA Live 14 Video - Quick Glimpse of BounceTek Demo

                        Originally posted by thedream2k13
                        live ball worked in 2k12 its just people werent ready for it. If a bodypart hits the ball it should react thats why its called " LIVE". People just complained because hey were having to many turnovers.
                        That's exactly my point and I have no reason to believe we - as an audience - is anymore ready for it now. The problem is that Joe User wants to plow his way to the basket. He doesn't get tired and he feels no pain; so if he wants to just go to the hole, why should dribbling the ball off of a teammate's foot be an issue?

                        Comment

                        • Boilerbuzz
                          D* B**rs!
                          • Jul 2002
                          • 5155

                          #72
                          Re: NBA Live 14 Video - Quick Glimpse of BounceTek Demo

                          Originally posted by quehouston
                          Fifa has had live ball for years, and it is arguably the best sports game on the market, so it is possible. However, of course that is soccer. This is basketball.

                          I feel like if this is implemented correctly, this would be the ultimate feature of a basketball simulation. In real life, you cant just dribble all willy nilly and not expect consequences. If you are up against a great defender and you are showing them the ball all game, then of course they are gonna take it from you. You have to protect the ball. That brings up the point made by 2 Headed Monster a couple posts earlier. If they are gonna have live ball, then we have to have some kind of protect button to put bodies between the man and the ball. Plus this brings up the possibility of inadvertent loose balls, but doesnt that happen in 2k now, even with the coded ball?

                          I just feel bounceTek is gonna open up ample opportunities on the offensive side as well as the defensive side of the ball. I feel like taking care of the the ball is gonna be challenging, as it is in real life. If you watch an NBA game, you dont see players constantly doing crossovers all game, trying to beat their man. You have to pick your spots, which is a sign of simulation to me. The intangibility of the ball in 2k is extremely frustrating, especially when you time your steal perfectly.

                          But of course, some people love just being able to unload an insane amount of dribble moves without consequence. For those people, there will always be 2k (Unless they are doing something different, but I wouldn't bank on it). If Live actually gets this and the physics right, it could be the future of basketball games.
                          The fact that 2K12 opened up the "live ball" aspect should be a clue that it is an independent entity. They just pick moments to manipulate the ball to get back to the hand or to ignore collision with feet. Other than that, from what I've seen, NBA 2K can give everything promised in bounceTek. But the point is - do we REALLY want that? Well, sure we WANT it. But are really ready to play the game in a way that is required to respect such a feature. Frankly, I say "no". I don't see a user wanting to control THAT many aspects of dribbling, while at the same time, think about setting up shots and passes on a 8 button, 2-stick controller. That's just my opinion. The interface to a basketball game is quite muddy as it is.

                          The average space between a soccer player with the ball versus another player on EITHER side, is MUCH larger than in basketball. Soccer works because there is less chance of the ball inadvertently hitting someone else. It's not the same game and certainly has nowhere near the same issues seen in a basketball game. Again - 2k12 gave us glimpses of that.

                          I'm sure we both agree that if done well, it would be a nice addition to a basketball game. We can also agree that some sort of interface breakthrough would be needed to give users the control needed to manage it as well. Otherwise, there will be a LOT of kicked balls.

                          I'm VERY curious to see how far EA actually takes this IF it's all that they are seem to be implying that it is. Or is that just over-zealous fans reading too much into what they have said. Something that's very common out of some EA fans, that's for sure. It's also very common for EA to over-hype certain features as well too. I'm still waiting for real *game planning* in Madden...

                          Comment

                          • TUSS11
                            MVP
                            • Nov 2007
                            • 1484

                            #73
                            Re: NBA Live 14 Video - Quick Glimpse of BounceTek Demo

                            Originally posted by Boilerbuzz
                            Reread my post. There was another demo of the actual tech. Not what was in the video.
                            What was in that demo?

                            Comment

                            • quehouston
                              Cheeseproof.com
                              • Nov 2008
                              • 724

                              #74
                              Re: NBA Live 14 Video - Quick Glimpse of BounceTek Demo

                              Originally posted by Boilerbuzz
                              The fact that 2K12 opened up the "live ball" aspect should be a clue that it is an independent entity. They just pick moments to manipulate the ball to get back to the hand or to ignore collision with feet. Other than that, from what I've seen, NBA 2K can give everything promised in bounceTek. But the point is - do we REALLY want that? Well, sure we WANT it. But are really ready to play the game in a way that is required to respect such a feature. Frankly, I say "no". I don't see a user wanting to control THAT many aspects of dribbling, while at the same time, think about setting up shots and passes on a 8 button, 2-stick controller. That's just my opinion. The interface to a basketball game is quite muddy as it is.
                              And that was the problem with 2k's take on "live ball". They made the ball live at the wrong times. If you were trying to advance the ball up court, thats when the ball was live. But when you cut off a dribbler to cause a contact animation, the ball was glued to him. It should have been the other way around.

                              But as far as control, DO users want to control that much? Who knows? I wouldn't mind it personally, but I also a firm believer in sim play. And sim players make up a very small fraction of players.

                              This idea always brings me back to FIFA. In FIFA you can change your controls to manual, which gives you total control of the direction/power of your passes/shots. Could there be different level of control schemes in Live? Just brainstorming the possibilities.

                              But yeah, I agree with you. Overall, I dont think people are ready for that much responsibility as far as handling the ball, seeing how people are more prone to gripe and complain about the game being too hard, rather than trying to learn.
                              Sixers/Panthers/Tarheels
                              Cheeseproof.com: Sim Sports gaming blog, featuring podcasts, guides, and articles on your favorite sports titles from 2k to FIFA.
                              Commish of USGL 2k16, featured by Da_Czar on the Sim Hangout.
                              @_quehouston and @cheeseproof

                              Comment

                              • quehouston
                                Cheeseproof.com
                                • Nov 2008
                                • 724

                                #75
                                Re: NBA Live 14 Video - Quick Glimpse of BounceTek Demo

                                Originally posted by thedream2k13
                                live ball worked in 2k12 its just people werent ready for it. If a bodypart hits the ball it should react thats why its called " LIVE". People just complained because hey were having to many turnovers.
                                Can we just call 2k's attempt "Semi-Live ball"?

                                The only time the turnovers really happened in 2k was when players tried to advance the ball where there was no space. It should be common sense to not dribble right through someone, be it a defender or a teammate. But of course we are playing a videogame. Joe User (like Boiler used it) isn't thinking about things like space, he's just trying to plow to the basket. People complained about it instead of changing the way they played.

                                If Live succeeds at this, I think it will force people to change the way they play. You will have to consider things like spacing, when/where/how to make your move. Im in love with the idea, but like Boiler said, are "we" as an audience ready for it? And will EA be able to pull it off?
                                Sixers/Panthers/Tarheels
                                Cheeseproof.com: Sim Sports gaming blog, featuring podcasts, guides, and articles on your favorite sports titles from 2k to FIFA.
                                Commish of USGL 2k16, featured by Da_Czar on the Sim Hangout.
                                @_quehouston and @cheeseproof

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