25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

[GiantBlue76]

Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

As a Titans fan who played a lot of Madden 06, Madden 07 and Madden 08 on the PC:

Vince Young with the vision cone = awful
Vince Young without vision cone = best QB in the game after Vick and McNabb

That right there is all you need to know about why the vision cone should still be in the game, at the very least, as an option you can toggle on/off.

The vision cone helped bring bad QBs back down to reality instead of the way Madden is now where any QB can be an all-pro in the hands of a skilled player.

You make fair points sir, but I have to disagree. The Vision cone is simply medicine designed to treat a symptom rather than addressing the real problem. In fact, that is the mantra that has plagued Madden for a long time. The developers constantly search for a solution to issues and implement the wrong solution. They kill the headache by cutting off the head. Nothing about the vision cone was realistic in any way, shape or form. The real issue is the engine which handles how the ball interacts with the players and the need for nearly every throw to go to a player (offensive or defensive). That same problem exists even today. I hate to do this, but it applies here... The 2k developers had a separate physics engine just for the ball. Yes - in 2004 they had this. Because the ball is separated from the players on the field, it allows them to adjust accuracy realistically based on who is throwing it, what kind of arm strength they've got, etc. etc. In Madden, the ball is connected to it's target. Sure, you can make overthrows or errant passes once in a while, but only if you use the lead passing mechanism. Also, the context of the bad throws is wrong. You will see a QB get hit as he throws, yet the ball will shoot out of his arm and go 50 yards in under 2 seconds.

This is part of my biggest issue with Tiburon over the years. They just can't ever get to that level of vision and ability to implement things like this that work smoothly and realistically together. Sure, Cam Weber is a good guy, smart and says the right things, but he's not writing the code. If the programmers don't know how to properly build these systems, you get the disjointed mess that you have now.

[Iceman87GT]

Loved this thing, It required you to read the defense before the play and determine your checkdowns. You had to know who you were going to try and go to and you made your progressions. It also made Awareness a relevant stat for player controlled QBs. I loved selecting a receiver before the play with the intention of then shifting it to my real intended target, you could actually look off the receivers.

It was so cool to be forced to change how I approach the passing game after Brett Favre retired, Rodgers hadn't progressed very much in that first year (Couldn't get Favre to last past the 1 season, despite the fact that he played 2 more seasons for the Packers in real life), but I saw a gem of a QB in the draft class and traded up to get him. His awareness was garbage but he had improvising speed (like Big Ben), and his Throw Power and Accuracy were in the 90s (one was 91 the other was in the upper 90s I forget which was which, its been awhile).

In terms of my QBs arm things didn't change much, but the new QB could really only focus on 1 player at a time, where as Favre could focus on about half the field at a time. It required me to be even more deliberate with my planning, I had to be quicker with my decisions, and had to be more aware of my surroundings.

Flashforward to Madden 08 on the PSP, I'm playing it during the pregame (or maybe it was halftime) at a Super Bowl party, I'm training Jared Zabranski (Boise State QB in that Fiesta Bowl comeback), and I ask a friend who knows his football if I should spend any points on awareness and he asks me "is there a vision cone?" I reply no, and he says don't worry about it then. Because when you are controlling a player Awareness is a non-factor, you should only work on your QB's awareness if you plan on simming games.

I didn't mind the fact that it messed with the presentation aspect, because the mechanic added more realism to the game than the presentation (even sans cone) did.

I would love to see them re-introduce this as an option, don't make it the default, but allow us to use it if we want in the various modes.

[brettmickey]

Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

I was only 12 when the Vision Cone was implemented and of course I turned it off after a game or 2 and never went back to it. Now, I would LOVE the challenge/ability to control where my quarterback is looking in order to draw the defense into certain areas of the field and look them off. I didn't understand progressions at that age so it didn't register to me how much it added to the realism (and I was using JP Losman who didn't exactly have the biggest cone so I became frustrated with it). Now I wish they had the option to turn it on or off so everyone could choose to use it or not.

[A_New_Classic]

Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

I liked the cone, it should at least be an optional feature...doesn't seem like it would be that hard to add in either so there really isn't a reason not to have it.

[cream6]

Hated it!!!

[Iceman87GT]

I know different people have different opinions but the notion that anything for most of this gen was about realism, is so unfounded. People keep mentioning how "sim", ie realistic Vision Cone was in 2005, when after looking at Tiburon's whole body of next-gen work, it's evident that realism has never been their target for anything, outside of graphics and rhetoric. The list of these type features is long and consistent throughout this exclusive football gen, so I just don't understand why some skew this into something they want to see come back or as sim.

Yes, I repeat yes, the concept of actual "QB Vision" in football is realistic but this feature wasn't and was likely only loosely based on any real life counterpart, if at all. Looking at just that feature alone, it's easy for anyone to mistakenly conclude that the feature had a sim premise but the implementation was off, I did so myself in the past, however looking at all the features this entire gen for context, shows a much different, clear picture. Same thing with "fight for the fumble" and "throw a receiver open", just to name a couple, if isolated they seem sim intended with implementation that went astray but no, they worked as intended, to maximize User control, not football realism.

I don't expect or necessarily want everyone to despise what Tiburon has done with football video games this gen like I do but I do want people to at least call a spade a spade. Tiburon has admittedly consistently prioritized User control over realism this gen yet some people still give them "sim" credit, where none is due. I don't begrudge anyone for their opinion of the QB Vision feature but it's what I perceive as the blatant mischaracterization of the feature and next-gen Madden as a whole, as even a genuine attempt at "sim", that irks me.

The Cone was absolutely added to the game as a way to increase the realism of the game, that's how they billed it when it was released. In contrast to your statement the removal of it (not the implementation) was to increase the amount of user control.

Players wanted to run Vick out of the pocket and throw across the field to the wide open guy, that's why so many hated it and that's why it got removed.

They were very specific when they discussed this mode, they knew that unrealistic play was rampant, players would run backwards and all around and then throw to a spot on the field that no QB would actually throw to after making those kinds of moves (because they would be throwing blind). We get to play the game in "god mode" thanks to the camera angle, that's not realistic, the Cone limited this lack of realism, by forcing you to first set then move the cone to the area before you could throw the ball, or risk an awful pass that would float and likely land nowhere near the area.

[garnettfan]

That crap didn't have a effect on the game I keep the light on my hot read and throw the ball anywhere with accuracy

[carnalnirvana]

i think the cone showed EA that going for realism or adding a learning curve to the game was not going to be insanely profitable or well received.

it turned off the casuals and imo from that point they took madden in a different direction.

[DirkJesusNowitzki]

Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

Loved it. Made the game harder to play but made it more realistic. I loved throwing off good stick guys using it. Mix up the guys you leave the cone on and then pump fake or switch receivers and pump fake to throw them off and then R2 switch the cone to the real target and throw it.

It also provided a much, much more realistic separation between average QB's and the elite guys.

[nosaints26]

Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

The Cone was absolutely added to the game as a way to increase the realism of the game, that's how they billed it when it was released. In contrast to your statement the removal of it (not the implementation) was to increase the amount of user control.

Players wanted to run Vick out of the pocket and throw across the field to the wide open guy, that's why so many hated it and that's why it got removed.

They were very specific when they discussed this mode, they knew that unrealistic play was rampant, players would run backwards and all around and then throw to a spot on the field that no QB would actually throw to after making those kinds of moves (because they would be throwing blind). We get to play the game in "god mode" thanks to the camera angle, that's not realistic, the Cone limited this lack of realism, by forcing you to first set then move the cone to the area before you could throw the ball, or risk an awful pass that would float and likely land nowhere near the area.

This sums up my feelings.

Passing is now and will always be the most dry and boring part of gameplay in Madden for me.

The "improved" directional passing and better trajectories helps, but nothing parallels the effect of the vision cone and the extra depth and richness it added to the game on both sides of the ball.

Logically, people who wanted real, strategic football (win or lose) being replicated in Madden really enjoyed this feature.

People who just wanted to win at all costs and continue their mastery of the mediocre passing gameplay hated it.

[ghettogeeksta]

Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

Hated it!!!

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[dallain22]

Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

Thought the passing cone was one of the better features Madden came up with. Something to really differentiate the better QBs from the rest. Don't know why they don't keep simple things like this in the game - it could always be turned off for players that don't like it.

[Benz87]

Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

I really enjoyed this feature and was excited to see it implemented, I was just as disappointed when it was removed. One of my gripes I’ve had with Madden for years, just like many others is the lack of impact players ratings have. I felt this feature did an excellent job differentiating between elite, average and below average quarterbacks. It would be nice if they brought it back with a user option.

[KBLover]

Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

I didn't like the vision cone because it doesn't really represent the difference in QBs. I.e. Brady doesn't "see more of the field" than Boller or Jamarcus Russell. Brady isn't better at throwing without looking, nor can he throw without looking to more of the field, etc. To me, it's not more realistic; it's just a different kind of unrealism.

It's reading coverages and making adjustments on the fly that's different. It's switching reads and looking around the field (not ability to see the field) that's different. Guys like Brady know where to look for their targets and are mentally quick in doing it and thinking on the fly as well as staying composed when the play breaks down.

That could be represented by doing away with the button-throwing and going back to the old Tecmo Bowl select-and-throw. Then make AWR how fast the QB changes targets. Or use tap once to "look" then again to throw (so to throw to my "Circle WR" it's tap circle, then using circle to throw the pass. If I wanted to instead throw to X, then I'd tap Circle, then tap X (looking off from Circle), and then quickly X to throw before the defense adjusts. AWR would still be the speed the QB switches targets so doing all of that sort of stuff would be easier with P. Manning because of his sky high AWR and a chore (and requiring a better OL) with someone like Tyrod Taylor.

AWR could also be a modifier to accuracy when switching targets. It wouldn't "override" or whatever other game term S/M/DAC, but accuracy when standing and throwing to one target without changing focus and doing it after looking around and seeing the new position of the target (since everyone is in motion most of the time as they run their routes and exploit what the DBs are trying to do) is different. So instead of yet another rating, use AWR as a modifier as well as the distance between targets. High enough would be small "penalty" low would make it inconsistent. Lower AWR could look from sideline to nearside numbers better than sideline to far numbers or the other sideline, etc.

Then, you could get the actual "half-field" QBs, guys who need to make only a half field read because they don't handle looking from one sideline to the other quickly and accurately enough.

The composure and such is/can be/should be handled by DPP. Sense Pressure, Tuck and Run, and Force Passes.

Vision cone didn't handle that. It made one QB see 2/3 of the field and another see a tiny slice. That's just not realistic and it doesn't add the split the field in half sort of reads because anyone could "swivel" to the other sideline without issue on top of the fact the bad QBs got more out of looking off because of defenders honing in on the cone. A wide cone meant not one really "got fooled" because they're all in the cone.

[KBLover]

Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

Logically, people who wanted real, strategic football (win or lose) being replicated in Madden really enjoyed this feature.

People who just wanted to win at all costs and continue their mastery of the mediocre passing gameplay hated it.

I want more strategy and realism in Madden and thought the feature came up short because it really didn't capture the realistic differences in QBs.

I can see just as much of the field as Brady, yet in the game, I'd have a miniscule cone and Brady can "see the whole field". The difference between us isn't that I'm blind and he isn't, yet that's what the cone portrayed while doing nothing of the real differences such as ability to sight and switch targets and doing so while under pressure.

With the cone, me looking from sideline to sideline is just as fast a Brady. The difference in the cone is that I'd have to look and Brady wouldn't. The real difference is that I wouldn't have the instincts/muscle memory, knowledge of the play to know where to look quickly let alone making the quick read and throw. Brady could do it like it was a simple hand off.

To me, it's not capturing the strategic and realistic differences in QB play.

I don't like the current passing system either. I don't like being able to mutate routes at will and would like to see an actual route-based passing system so I can throw outs and such properly.

The fact I'm all in on the vision cone does not mean I do not want strategy and realism in Madden - that does not follow logically.