25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

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  • thagrandson
    Rookie
    • Aug 2012
    • 8

    #91
    I liked the cone, but it was a lot to deal with..

    Comment

    • bwright25
      Rookie
      • Jul 2009
      • 69

      #92
      Originally posted by KBLover
      I didn't like the vision cone because it doesn't really represent the difference in QBs. I.e. Brady doesn't "see more of the field" than Boller or Jamarcus Russell. Brady isn't better at throwing without looking, nor can he throw without looking to more of the field, etc. To me, it's not more realistic; it's just a different kind of unrealism.

      It's reading coverages and making adjustments on the fly that's different. It's switching reads and looking around the field (not ability to see the field) that's different. Guys like Brady know where to look for their targets and are mentally quick in doing it and thinking on the fly as well as staying composed when the play breaks down.

      That could be represented by doing away with the button-throwing and going back to the old Tecmo Bowl select-and-throw. Then make AWR how fast the QB changes targets. Or use tap once to "look" then again to throw (so to throw to my "Circle WR" it's tap circle, then using circle to throw the pass. If I wanted to instead throw to X, then I'd tap Circle, then tap X (looking off from Circle), and then quickly X to throw before the defense adjusts. AWR would still be the speed the QB switches targets so doing all of that sort of stuff would be easier with P. Manning because of his sky high AWR and a chore (and requiring a better OL) with someone like Tyrod Taylor.

      AWR could also be a modifier to accuracy when switching targets. It wouldn't "override" or whatever other game term S/M/DAC, but accuracy when standing and throwing to one target without changing focus and doing it after looking around and seeing the new position of the target (since everyone is in motion most of the time as they run their routes and exploit what the DBs are trying to do) is different. So instead of yet another rating, use AWR as a modifier as well as the distance between targets. High enough would be small "penalty" low would make it inconsistent. Lower AWR could look from sideline to nearside numbers better than sideline to far numbers or the other sideline, etc.

      Then, you could get the actual "half-field" QBs, guys who need to make only a half field read because they don't handle looking from one sideline to the other quickly and accurately enough.

      The composure and such is/can be/should be handled by DPP. Sense Pressure, Tuck and Run, and Force Passes.

      Vision cone didn't handle that. It made one QB see 2/3 of the field and another see a tiny slice. That's just not realistic and it doesn't add the split the field in half sort of reads because anyone could "swivel" to the other sideline without issue on top of the fact the bad QBs got more out of looking off because of defenders honing in on the cone. A wide cone meant not one really "got fooled" because they're all in the cone.
      You obviously never played QB in real Life. Being able to see the field is probably second most important ability next to being able to actually throw the ball.

      Comment

      • jagsrock95
        Rookie
        • Jun 2009
        • 191

        #93
        Anyone remember "read and Lead" from nfl fever. I thought that was probably the best implementation of this type of feature. It took a little getting used to but it was less intrusive and more accurate.

        <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/eALSNYDha4U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
        Last edited by jagsrock95; 08-07-2013, 03:10 PM.

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        • The JareBear
          Be Good To One Another
          • Jul 2010
          • 11560

          #94
          Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

          Originally posted by infemous
          THANK YOU.

          All we need is a meter, or a gauge, that can be toggled on and off with set standards and trajectories for every minute element on the gauge. The ratings affect each end result and it is up to the user to adapt and make very accurate throws... DEPENDING on the rating.

          With regards the vision cone, I never played 06 (was happy with 03 until 2010) and therefore can't comment but its such an eye sore... if it was implemented with a hiding of the buttons for the receivers downfield until you manually looked at them, or clicked onto them, and came with the QB actually moving his head, I'd embrace it.
          Yeah, I agree one thousand percent.

          Again, it just needs one of the other. Throwing meter, vision cone, something that accurately reflects how a QB operates. Of course, make it an option so people can disable it, but it's the only way to be "sim"
          "Successful people do not celebrate in the adversity or misfortune of others."

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          Comment

          • The JareBear
            Be Good To One Another
            • Jul 2010
            • 11560

            #95
            Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

            Originally posted by jagsrock95
            Anyone remember "read and Lead" from nfl fever. I thought that was probably the best implementation of this type of feature. It took a little getting used to but it was less intrusive and more accurate.

            <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/eALSNYDha4U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
            That is actually pretty cool
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            Comment

            • jyoung
              Hall Of Fame
              • Dec 2006
              • 11132

              #96
              Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

              Originally posted by KBLover
              Or use tap once to "look" then again to throw (so to throw to my "Circle WR" it's tap circle, then using circle to throw the pass. If I wanted to instead throw to X, then I'd tap Circle, then tap X (looking off from Circle), and then quickly X to throw before the defense adjusts.
              That's exactly how the vision cone worked in Madden if you used the triggers and face buttons to control it instead of the right joystick.

              Sadly, many people never played with the feature long enough to realize that the alternate control method existed.

              Comment

              • Cubfan
                World Series Champions!!
                • Feb 2004
                • 3929

                #97
                Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

                I remember trying it for a few games and not liking it. I turned it off and I'm glad it has not been brought back.
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                Comment

                • infemous
                  MVP
                  • Nov 2009
                  • 1568

                  #98
                  Originally posted by The JareBear
                  Yeah, I agree one thousand percent.

                  Again, it just needs one of the other. Throwing meter, vision cone, something that accurately reflects how a QB operates. Of course, make it an option so people can disable it, but it's the only way to be "sim"
                  Thank you.

                  I look at it as right now, it's not necessarily broken, but it sure as hell isn't good.

                  I wanna firstly untether the ball from the WR. When that is done, passing can finally open up. We can finally see throws fly into the dirt, sail out of bounds or actually REALISTICALLY lead a WR to a specific spot. The difference is that the WR will need to be able to see th ball to make a play on it. It will also mean that the pass will need to be thrown in such a way that the WR will be able to do so. You can't always bullet pass because it may fly beyond your target. Using touch and placement will be the key. Which now throws up the real issue of how the ball actually comes out of the QBs hands.

                  Just pressing a button, either hard or tapping it does not offer any realistic representation of passing.

                  A gauge, like the passing gauges in FIFA can be used to help determine what sort of pass comes out. As I mentioned in the original post, it is dependent on the route, the QBs rating and a small amount of the human Player's skill.

                  Once these mechanics are established I think that something akin to the cone, such as a hidden cone that requires you to cycle through your targets before you 'pull the trigger' which the speed of the cycling between targets is determined by the players' awareness rating, will be more successful and less of a contentious issue.

                  I think the disagreements we have over the cone stem from just how fundamentally easy it is to pass once you have determined where the ball is going. It doesn't matter if you use the cone or not, because if you can throw the ball accurately with every QB, ad there is no differentiation between each QB in this regard, we will still know that the passing system in Madden sucks.

                  The QB cone is the painkiller for the migraine caused by a concussion (or something - excuse the analogy lol). A holistic approach is required, putting things that appear sim over a fundamentally unsim passing mechanic will still frustrate sim heads while additionally frustrating the pick up and play crowds, which as we all know is something EA refuse to allow to happen.
                  Blood in my mouth beats blood on the ground.

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                  Comment

                  • ghettogeeksta
                    Banned
                    • Sep 2011
                    • 2632

                    #99
                    Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

                    Originally posted by carnalnirvana
                    i think the cone showed EA that going for realism or adding a learning curve to the game was not going to be insanely profitable or well received.

                    it turned off the casuals and imo from that point they took madden in a different direction.
                    With no competition it was a easy decision.

                    Comment

                    • burter
                      Rookie
                      • Jun 2007
                      • 456

                      #100
                      Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

                      Originally posted by jagsrock95
                      Anyone remember "read and Lead" from nfl fever. I thought that was probably the best implementation of this type of feature. It took a little getting used to but it was less intrusive and more accurate.

                      <iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/eALSNYDha4U" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>
                      That is freaking awesome! Wow. Like imagine if that was worked on from than till now.
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                      Comment

                      • KBLover
                        Hall Of Fame
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 12172

                        #101
                        Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

                        Originally posted by bwright25
                        You obviously never played QB in real Life. Being able to see the field is probably second most important ability next to being able to actually throw the ball.
                        How does one QB see more of the field than the other?

                        How does the vision cone represent this ability?

                        It's not literal vision (no QB sees only such a sliver of the field). It's knowing where the receivers are at any point in time.

                        The vision cone didn't represent that. It just made the bad QBs blind. That's not realistic.
                        "Some people call it butterflies, but to him, it probably feels like pterodactyls in his stomach." --Plesac in MLB18

                        Comment

                        • Lukin4
                          Rookie
                          • Oct 2009
                          • 175

                          #102
                          It wasn't ever meant to represent how much of the field each QB saw, but how much of what they saw that they were able to process and react to... Jamarcus Russell could see that WR streaking up the sideline but not much else, so would throw it to him... Peyton Manning not only sees the WR, but also the CB underneath and the safety coming across from centre field for the pick, so won't throw it...

                          Comment

                          • unfriendlyghst
                            Thread Killer
                            • Aug 2007
                            • 151

                            #103
                            Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

                            Originally posted by KBLover
                            How does one QB see more of the field than the other?

                            How does the vision cone represent this ability?

                            It's not literal vision (no QB sees only such a sliver of the field). It's knowing where the receivers are at any point in time.

                            The vision cone didn't represent that. It just made the bad QBs blind. That's not realistic.
                            Gonna have to disagree there KB. If your saying that Jamarcus Russel and Peyton Manning see the same field, and that the vision cone does NOT represent the discrepancy between the two, then I'm gonna have to say you arte O for 2 my friend.

                            Is it true that both QB's see (are looking at) the same physical field (the green grass)? Yeah , probably, but are they making the same reads? Are they seeing the same recievers get open during the play? Are they making the same pre play adjustments/reads (breaking down man/zone coverage).

                            I would think not.

                            As far as the cone goes against the CPU, I dunno, I'm playing with the Raiders now and if Matt Flynn isn't getting sacked or hit, my guys usually drop the pass.

                            HOWEVER, in the past 2 days I have had 3, 1.5 hr long games against Human oppenents and I can say with out a doubt the cone brings a welcome level of realism.

                            You HAVE to plant your feet.
                            You HAVE to lead your receivers.
                            You HAVE to make a good read (i.e. not across the field left to right or vice-versa)
                            You HAVE to stay in the pocket (it actually forms)
                            OR ELSE you RISK throwing an errant pass, a wounded duck, a grounder, or fumbling.

                            I can understand most people not wanting this level of realism, but it stands as a long lingering issue with Madden games, as it was once AN OPTION for those brave enough to try. And for Sim heads like me. This is a feature I would love to see re enter the series.

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                            Comment

                            • KBLover
                              Hall Of Fame
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 12172

                              #104
                              Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

                              Originally posted by unfriendlyghst
                              Is it true that both QB's see (are looking at) the same physical field (the green grass)? Yeah , probably, but are they making the same reads? Are they seeing the same recievers get open during the play? Are they making the same pre play adjustments/reads (breaking down man/zone coverage).

                              I would think not.
                              How does the vision cone represent any of that?

                              The cone doesn't break down coverages. The cone doesn't make any reads. It just let's one QB see more of the physical field than the other.

                              The vision cone doesn't emulate ability to make reads at all. How does putting the cone on the receiver make the read? It just meant the QB is "looking at" the receiver so his accuracy is higher. The user is making the read and deciding where to put the cone. The cone isn't reading or allowing the QB to read anything.

                              How does it emulate the quickness the QB can adjust? It just adjusted as fast as the user could shift the cone, not based on the QB's abilities. The user is still making the presnap adjustments so the cone is just having the QB look somewhere (seeing the physical field), and the QB's abilities didn't alter that success.

                              Jamarcus Russell and Tom Brady can make the same reads with the vision cone. Russell might just need a faster user - but, assuming the skill is there, he's able to do the same thing as Brady, negating any difference and any realistic separation between the two.
                              "Some people call it butterflies, but to him, it probably feels like pterodactyls in his stomach." --Plesac in MLB18

                              Comment

                              • Gorilla Glass
                                MVP
                                • Aug 2010
                                • 1139

                                #105
                                Re: 25 Days of Madden: The Vision Cone

                                Originally posted by KBLover
                                How does the vision cone represent any of that?

                                The cone doesn't break down coverages. The cone doesn't make any reads. It just let's one QB see more of the physical field than the other.

                                The vision cone doesn't emulate ability to make reads at all. How does putting the cone on the receiver make the read? It just meant the QB is "looking at" the receiver so his accuracy is higher. The user is making the read and deciding where to put the cone. The cone isn't reading or allowing the QB to read anything.

                                How does it emulate the quickness the QB can adjust? It just adjusted as fast as the user could shift the cone, not based on the QB's abilities. The user is still making the presnap adjustments so the cone is just having the QB look somewhere (seeing the physical field), and the QB's abilities didn't alter that success.

                                Jamarcus Russell and Tom Brady can make the same reads with the vision cone. Russell might just need a faster user - but, assuming the skill is there, he's able to do the same thing as Brady, negating any difference and any realistic separation between the two.
                                All of this.

                                The user is the awareness. The user makes all the reads. Why even put a monkey wrench in that process?

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