OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummings

[Steve_OS]

It’s another special episode of the Press Row Podcast, as we talk about Madden NFL 25 – and, by extension, life as a gaming father and working professional - with two of our favorite people. First up is ESPN’s Gus Ramsey, best known for his appearances on Bill Simmons’ BS Report to talk about his experiences with the game so far and how video games play a part in his family life as the Dad of three sons. Next up is Zynga’s Ian Cummings, a longtime designer of Madden who’s been away from the franchise for a few years. In a wide-ranging discussion, he reveals some fascinating insights into Madden 25 specifically and the franchise as a whole in the past, today, and moving into the next generation. It’s a must-listen for everyone that has ever loved Madden.

Joining us this week:

• Gus Ramsey, ESPN (@gusramsey)
• Ian Cummings, Zynga(@iantcummings)
• And your host, Richard Grisham, GamesRadar (@richgrisham)

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Enjoy the show!

Run Time: 1 Hour, 45 Minutes

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[roadman]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

Interesting listening to Ian.

External factors heard more than a few times, ie, wait for it, marketing dept.

If you get a chance, listen to the interview with Ian.

[BrianU]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

That was a great listen. Richard and Ian have a great rapport I could listen to them every week. I felt a lot more compassion towards the dev team after hearing how Ian described his work ethic in the early days and how he stayed up till 4 am working on QB releases lol. We definitely forget these devs are hard working professionals when we bitch about all the things that we see flawed.

I liked his point of the difference between Madden and FIFA being that FIFA has built upon the last game release after release and not taken away features. I hope they take the next generation of Madden and follow that philosophy. I believe CCM was a great first step towards that goal and I too am optimistic, we aren't there yet but in a few years we will be. We may have felt like that 5 years ago but I feel now there is ample evidence in the last two years of Madden along with the current group of devs to secure that endorsement.

There is still things that make me scratch my head and wonder why they exist. The wind meter being backwards, the state of penalties, the replay camera angles, horrible blocking shown in the Kotaku review, the end of game highlight being an awful play by the losing team, the assisted tackles not being fixed entirely, broken auto-subs, the sim stats, CPU zone pass D, a punter being selected in the first round of the draft, run/pass ratio of cpu playcalling being unrealistic and not able to be tuned, not being able to assign custom playbooks with CPU teams, lack of formation subs that was in previous games, schedules in franchise being wacky after year 1, backwards or non-working sliders, nano blitzes.. It's all of these little things that add up and create lots of frustration. I know it is not fair to place myself in another person's shoes but these all seem like relatively small fixes that you could implement in roughly little time and once they are fixed they are fixed forever. If Madden was my baby, MY game I worked my *** off on I would want it to be close to flawless as possible. I could never allow these issues to remain in the game. But of course I don't know the pressure or time limits they are dealing with.

If they went to a subscription based model with monthly patches and maybe like 3 month major updates I would gladly fork over $10-20 a month for that. Here's to the hope that M25 next gen is a solid foundation for them to build up on, we see the small things fixed, and we see no more features stripped but instead continuous improvements with no subtractions.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

I also enjoyed the interview with Ian.

It was interesting that he seemed to regard Madden 10 as his favorite one. He seemed disappointed with 11, that he caved to external pressures and took the game away from what he had started with 10. I agree with that assessment.

He alluded to the game still caving to those external pressures and basically said that the precision modifier seemed to be one of those times. I like how he expects it to be ripped out in the next couple of games, and that not building on what Madden has done already has really hurt the game. Again I agree.

He prefers Backbreaker/Euphoria physics to IE. Again, I agree. Backbreaker wasn't good overall, but the physics/ player interaction were a better model.

Lastly, I found it interesting that he felt Madden was ripe for some competition. He mentioned that Apple can make I phone/ Ipad NFL games and then have them connect to a tv. He sees a real market for a "owner mode" game or a simple cheap, fun game (I picture a Tecmo style game) coming in and getting some of Madden's football market.

Overall, it was worth listening to.

[roadman]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

I always liked Ian, plus I was able to get a few suggestions into the game from him.

It's the one or two death threats he received here that lead him away.(and some argued he needed tougher skin. I don't know how much tougher it could get with death threats)

Anyway, Ian is looking at the game as a consumer, now, and he understands the frustrations. He constantly referred to NBA2k and The Show and said those games are beyond Madden.

Staight to the heart interview.

[GiantBlue76]

Wow - he basically discloses how much of a mess the madden development team is. This game is a lost cause. This tells me that it will never be fixed. I must say, I do appreciate him finally being able to be candid about it, and simply confirm everything we have always feared.

[Brandwin]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

If they went to a subscription based model with monthly patches and maybe like 3 month major updates I would gladly fork over $10-20 a month for that. Here's to the hope that M25 next gen is a solid foundation for them to build up on, we see the small things fixed, and we see no more features stripped but instead continuous improvements with no subtractions.

I didn't listen to the interview so I may be taking this out of context, but I would hate to have to pay extra for patches. I already pay $60 for them to get the game right, I shouldn't have pay more for them to fix things wrong with the game.

[therizing02]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

Great interview with Ian...again. Ian confirmed the life long belief of this board that there are a lot of external factors and input into the design of the game. He also confirmed my belief that one of the biggest problems with Madden is the constant turnover on the Dev team. I thought it was hilarious when he basically said that the Precision Modifier will be ripped out within 2 years and that it sounded like a marketing idea for a back of the box feature.

As far as the pressure on the dev team, I don't think there were any eye opening comments. Yes we know they work long hours and get a lot of external pressure from higher ups. BTW, for anyone who has a job, this is par for the course and that isn't an excuse for some of the things that haven't been fixed in years.

[homeycool]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

It may be par for the course in many fields, but software developers are highly sought after and generally are given a lot of leeway from employers because good developers are so hard to find let alone keep. The game industry is one of the worst work environments for software developers and it sounds like EA isn't doing itself any favors by providing that kind of culture for its developers.

[ghettogeeksta]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

Going to listen to the podcast while I am at work here in a bit. Can't wait to here what Ian has to say!

[CarryTheWeight]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

I'll echo the sentiments of most of the replies with Ian's portion of the interview, and I'm glad that he understands and echoes a lot of the criticism and gripes people have around these boards. This criticism doesn't exist in a vacuum if the former lead designer also talks about it candidly.

Also interesting to hear his honest opinion of commentary and living sidelines during his time at EA and how he was interested in implementing them. Makes me wonder how much was left on the cutting room floor during his time.

His comments about stability in the development teams and in the feature set speak volumes. Always respected the guy's ambition and community involvement, but what's done is done. Hopefully someone from the front office hears his criticism and improves the stability inside and outside this franchise.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

Well the part with Ian seemed to illustrate that "bubble" that exists when affiliated with Tiburon because the Ian in that interview would likely have been on Madden Creative Director Ian's OS ignore list, lol. Stating things like "x is a still a mess", "I was breaking down video of y in instant replay", "z is just a back of the box feature which adds nothing to the game", "BackBreaker had the kind of physics I want to see in a football game", etc, boy the forest sure is easy to see without the trees obstructing your view. That interview reminded me of a politician reflecting on their time in office after leaving, too bad it wasn't done periodically while actually in office when it might have mattered.

I won't dig up quotes or bash Ian because to err is human but this is someone that criticized gamers about making YouTube videos showing Madden's issues using instant replay and defended Tiburon's product for years. I'm not naive, I understand one shouldn't bash a company they actually work for but that doesn't mean they have to defend it. The same stuff he is saying now, about then, was just as true then.

Anyway, I ain't mad at you Ian, glad to see you were able to parlay your time at Tiburon into more lucrative endeavors. Can't knock the hustle.

[The_Balm]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

Fantastic interview! I could listen Ian for hours. I hope he's back on the show soon. He has some really great insight on Madden development. I was sad to see him leave the Madden team, I always thought he had a really good vision for Madden, but couldn't go at it 100%, this seems to confirm my thinking. I'm a huge fan of his current wishes (physics like Backbreaker with consistent momentum, a lot better commentary, more little things etc.).

[Kaiser Wilhelm]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

Well the part with Ian seemed to illustrate that "bubble" that exists when affiliated with Tiburon because the Ian in that interview would likely have been on Madden Creative Director Ian's OS ignore list, lol. Stating things like "x is a still a mess", "I was breaking down video of y in instant replay", "z is just a back of the box feature which adds nothing to the game", "BackBreaker had the kind of physics I want to see in a football game", etc, boy the forest sure is easy to see without the trees obstructing your view. That interview reminded me of a politician reflecting on their time in office after leaving, too bad it wasn't done periodically while actually in office when it might have mattered.

I won't dig up quotes or bash Ian because to err is human but this is someone that criticized gamers about making YouTube videos showing Madden's issues using instant replay and defended Tiburon's product for years. I'm not naive, I understand one shouldn't bash a company they actually work for but that doesn't mean they have to defend it. The same stuff he is saying now, about then, was just as true then.

Anyway, I ain't mad at you Ian, glad to see you were able to parlay your time at Tiburon into more lucrative endeavors. Can't knock the hustle.

If Ian were an independent artisan, creating the games as his own boss, then yes he could have. When Ian was a Madden developer, he also had to keep up public relations. He no longer has to maintain any PR for EA Tiburon, thus he can be candid.

With the games that are now coming out on Kickstarter that are the ideas of longtime vets of the business and you here their side of the story, you might finally begin to realize just because somebody has the titles of Creative Designer, doesn't mean they are designing their own creation.

I can't find the link but David Sears had a very decent interview where he talked about "management."

[Big FN Deal]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

If Ian were an independent artisan, creating the games as his own boss, then yes he could have. When Ian was a Madden developer, he also had to keep up public relations. He no longer has to maintain any PR for EA Tiburon, thus he can be candid.

With the games that are now coming out on Kickstarter that are the ideas of longtime vets of the business and you here their side of the story, you might finally begin to realize just because somebody has the titles of Creative Designer, doesn't mean they are designing their own creation.

I can't find the link but David Sears had a very decent interview where he talked about "management."

I respect what you are saying but I think it's different than what I was referring to or at least trying to in my post. I understand that he can be more candid now and in that candor he admits that some of the things he did have creative control over weren't the best decisions, in hindsight. I'm not crucifying him for it, we all can reflect on past mistakes. I'm just highlighting the fact about how different those same decisions, that he defended at the time, now seem when looking at the game in a different context.

That's what many gamers tried to get Ian to do back then and others to do today in relation to EA football, only to be rebuffed by Tiburon speak. I call it that because they often state things that only seem to make sense in relation to the way things work at Tiburon.