OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummings

[gr18]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

Many thought that while Ian's reign started off well ,it didn't reach the level as expected.In retrospect,he got it pretty darn close and they would've been better off building on '12 and thus would be further along.

You wouldn't have thought that at the time.What has transpired over the last couple of years is a product with promise and great potential that is sloppier,frustratingly shallow for the intended framework and lending more of a pompous,deaf ear to the consumer.

Of course,just about all the reviews will always look at 'innovation' with no regards to stability and are just about as oblivious as a company that releases a product with bugs that should be obvious if you test it.

[ryan36]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

I think maybe the reason Ian was seen as "overly sensitive" was because he agreed with much of what was being said, and maybe he knew he couldn't do anything about it.

That being said, death threats would've clammed me up to. It's just a job. I do remember he said "ragdoll physics would never work," but that's understandable. When I'm working for a company I will make their counterpoint - AND believe it.

Perspective does wonders.

[ghettogeeksta]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

Great interview! Ian is a cool guy he really tried during his tenure as Creative Director at Tiburon but too many things out of his control. Cam Weber seems like a stand up guy that will fight for more control. Hopefully management sees the way they have been doing things with Madden isn't working and trust the team more this time around.

[Brooke2011]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

Great interview , always had a ton of respect for Ian. What I took from that podcast was ,if Ian by himself had no constraints , he could have made Madden a much better game. And that Madden next gen will basically be madden current gen ported over.

Wish you were back on the team Ian . Maybe down the line you can developer a football sim that gives madden a run for its money.

[rootofalleli]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

I didn't listen to the interview so I may be taking this out of context, but I would hate to have to pay extra for patches. I already pay $60 for them to get the game right, I shouldn't have pay more for them to fix things wrong with the game.

Alas, $60 isn't working out so well. So far people are paying EA to get it wrong. No one wants to pay more, but maybe a subscription model would allow the devs to actually do good work. BrianU's first post lists an astonishing number of bugs/broken features. I don't think Madden will ever be good without changes to who makes it or how it's made. That litany of mistakes will grow every year as features are scrapped, rushed, hastily revised, and sloppily patched over because the people who set budgets and goals feel very little pressure to create something that isn't mediocre.

[Clemsonpanther]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

What minute mark does Ian Cummings come on?

[roadman]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

What minute mark does Ian Cummings come on?

Around the 48 minute mark.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

Many thought that while Ian's reign started off well ,it didn't reach the level as expected.In retrospect,he got it pretty darn close and they would've been better off building on '12 and thus would be further along.

You wouldn't have thought that at the time.What has transpired over the last couple of years is a product with promise and great potential that is sloppier,frustratingly shallow for the intended framework and lending more of a pompous,deaf ear to the consumer.

Of course,just about all the reviews will always look at 'innovation' with no regards to stability and are just about as oblivious as a company that releases a product with bugs that should be obvious if you test it.

I don't quite agree. I would say in retrospect madden 10 was under under appreciated for what it started. Madden 11 was when Ian caved to external pressures. The extra point was removed, pro-tak removed, locomotion brought back ice skating players, etc. 12 was the year of franchise, but these guys work on multiyear plans. They knew when they released 12 that CCM was replacing it.

My point is that 12 just happened to be a better game than the others, but the philosophy of bringing stuff in to rip it out the next year was already back at Tiburon.

Bigfndeal made a good point as well. This Ian admits to mistakes and likes backbreaker physics over IE. Creative director Ian was very anti-euphoria and defended protak as superior. Maybe protak could've been improved, we will never know because it only lasted 1 game. IE is a major eyesore at the moment, and more or less a cheap imitation of physics, it's the worst of the three options.

[JohnDoe8865]

Man, I really wish Ian and his vision for "Everything You See on Sunday" was still on the Madden team. Madden NFL 10 was the high point for this generation of Madden, no question in my mind. It seemed like Madden 11 and Madden 12 were side steps at best, and now I think it's clear why. If that team, that created Madden 10, had been able to follow up on their vision and go with a full three year plan starting with Madden 10, I think we'd be in a far better place in console football gaming.

As it stands, we got a sloppy mess of a Madden 13 last year, and this year seems like year two of a plan. I'm just not sure if the plan involves the vision that takes Madden where it should be. NBA 2K level of commentary and franchise depth, more options for owner mode, tight gameplay (Ian mentions that you can feel how bad the defensive locomotion is if you go back and play Madden last gen), and NFL worthy authenticity. Madden NFL NEEDS these things to become an elite sports game.

Problem is, the game sells without being anything close to an elite game. Sales are down on current-gen this year, but they'll make that up and then some on next-gen.

[ghettogeeksta]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

I don't quite agree. I would say in retrospect madden 10 was under under appreciated for what it started. Madden 11 was when Ian caved to external pressures. The extra point was removed, pro-tak removed, locomotion brought back ice skating players, etc. 12 was the year of franchise, but these guys work on multiyear plans. They knew when they released 12 that CCM was replacing it.

My point is that 12 just happened to be a better game than the others, but the philosophy of bringing stuff in to rip it out the next year was already back at Tiburon.

Bigfndeal made a good point as well. This Ian admits to mistakes and likes backbreaker physics over IE. Creative director Ian was very anti-euphoria and defended protak as superior. Maybe protak could've been improved, we will never know because it only lasted 1 game. IE is a major eyesore at the moment, and more or less a cheap imitation of physics, it's the worst of the three options.

I respect your opinion but im sorry, Pro-tak was horrible, the guys would just suck of the ball carrier with not kind of force or momentum at all, IE is far superior to Pro-Tak. Hopefully with the power of the next-gen consoles they can do more with it.

[MissionMaximus]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

I believe CCM was a great first step towards that goal and I too am optimistic, we aren't there yet but in a few years we will be. We may have felt like that 5 years ago but I feel now there is ample evidence in the last two years of Madden along with the current group of devs to secure that endorsement.
If they went to a subscription based model with monthly patches and maybe like 3 month major updates I would gladly fork over $10-20 a month for that. Here's to the hope that M25 next gen is a solid foundation for them to build up on, we see the small things fixed, and we see no more features stripped but instead continuous improvements with no subtractions.

How long does it take it's been going on for 9 years now. Without the NFL exclusive license this game would of gone the way of NBA Live. Competition would force EA/Tiburon's hand and that would be to compete against other NFL videogames. Competition drives innovation and quality in one's product/service.
Oh, how I remember here on OS after the exclusive license with the NFL was announced how people talked about how much better the game would be with EA being able to do this and do that with unfeatherd access now with the NFL. How competition didn't necessarily mean a better product, total bullsh*t. The NFL approached EA and forced the exclusive on them it's not their fault. Then EA bought exclusives with ESPN, NCAA, Arena Football, Hall of Famers, etc...
My main example is NBA Live do you honestly believe EA would of pulled Live's piece of crap if not for NBA2k or Xbox 1 do a complete 180 after E3 if not for the PS4.
The answer is NO THEY WOULD NOT, COMPETITION FORCED THEM TO DO IT.
The only way for madden to improve is if they lose the exclusive contract. Plain and simple.

[gr18]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

In regards to Madden 10,I certainly agree that it was the biggest jump for Madden from the year before.It should be regarded by Ian as his biggest triumph and his favorite because I'm sure he was happier with and felt better about the company then.By '12 things were certainly a lot different and the creative restrictions and backlash made for an uneasy time.

I'm not sure though if some people hail '10 for what the game was at that time or look at it as the preferred game to play now.I picked the game up again several months back and while I liked it a lot when it came out,I think '12 is a much better game in comparison.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

How long does it take it's been going on for 9 years now. Without the NFL exclusive license this game would of gone the way of NBA Live. Competition would force EA/Tiburon's hand and that would be to compete against other NFL videogames. Competition drives innovation and quality in one's product/service.
Oh, how I remember here on OS after the exclusive license with the NFL was announced how people talked about how much better the game would be with EA being able to do this and do that with unfeatherd access now with the NFL. How competition didn't necessarily mean a better product, total bullsh*t. The NFL approached EA and forced the exclusive on them it's not their fault. Then EA bought exclusives with ESPN, NCAA, Arena Football, Hall of Famers, etc...
My main example is NBA Live do you honestly believe EA would of pulled Live's piece of crap if not for NBA2k or Xbox 1 do a complete 180 after E3 if not for the PS4.
The answer is NO THEY WOULD NOT, COMPETITION FORCED THEM TO DO IT.
The only way for madden to improve is if they lose the exclusive contract. Plain and simple.

Oh how I wanted to like your post because the vast majority of it I agree with but then you threw in the bold. I won't rehash that topic but according to certain reports, the bold is inaccurate.

Overall though I think you make good points, even though admittedly by Ian Madden under his tenure could have been much better, even without competition, had they not "caved" to external pressure. I haven't gotten into that statement much because all it would do is frustrate me to think about but that seems clear to me that even with the external pressures Ian and the team were given some form of choice. I picture Tiburon as this echo chamber or "bubble" where somehow bad or at least unconventional design ideas become accepted over essentially common sense, in the guise of innovation. Many people over the years in the software field have posted on various boards that yes there are external pressures that give their two cents but that usually the final decision is up to those that are directly in charge of the product. A take that to mean it's rare that a "suit" or marketing is directly dictating to someone how to do things that individual has to sign their name to and be directly accountable for.

That's what I was getting at about it would have been nice if during his tenure when he was making those decisions Ian had taken time to try to see Madden in a different perspective. I mean think about it, Ian admittedly caved to the external pressure and chose to take Madden in a different direction for M11 than M10, maybe from self doubt due to external influences focus on sales that he mentioned were down or not great for M10, only to quit Tiburon sometime the next year anyway. I think the lesson from this is to have the courage of your conventions and don't worry about the things that are out of your control because.....they're out of your control.

That's where that "bubble" comes into play again, imo because most anyone outside looking in would have deduced that of course M10 sells would be down because so much was left unfinished, namely Online Franchise Mode and Franchise mode as a whole still missing features from last gen Madden, along with being nowhere near as deep as HC09. Yet Tiburon had the audacity to claim that most gamers don't even play career/franchise modes and some posters picked up that talking point claiming that OS Franchise players were a minority. (check out Spliff3000's sig). Yet M13 added CCM that was a buggy mess but the fact that it was fundamentally the same career mode offline or online gave it crazy metrics for Looman to tout that as a success.

Some people seem to be lauding Ian for this interview and I don't begrudge them that but looking back at the past, I have a different opinion on his revelations.

[infemous]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

I find it startling how much I tend to agree with Big F'n Deal.

I always used to find that Ian would be very tetchy, which may have come from over exposing himself to the fanbase, however, there was another point in this thread that I liked, which mentions that he could have been uncomfortable and tetchy as Creative Director because he agreed with what we were saying but was unable to say he did.

I think this is a problem with people in business however. They allow their job to compromise who they are. If you are in a job and are being told to do things you are not comfortable with doing, it is worth leaving that job.

It seems Ian eventually did do that, and for that, I can respect him, however, it is frustrating remembering a lot of his dismissive and condescending responses to our requests.

Mike Young is another one, who I feel probably deep down knows how much rubbish he has to regurgitate, and would do differently if he could, however it manifests into a condescending and mocking tone. 'Control Freaks who want 32 team control' is one thing I kept hearing that I took exception to...

The only person who seems to be blissfully ignorant and totally on board with everything because he is genuinely clueless is Donny Moore. He is basically a tool for marketing and acts as the cheerleader for Madden on twitter and promo vids.

What I read that Ian said that interested me was the gap in the market for a Sim NFL Management game, which I would love to see. Football Manager and Championship Manager before it for football/soccer is an incredibly successful franchise that relied upon text and just very sound concepts and AI to create an immersive and engaging, completely addictive game that sells incredibly well.

I feel that something like this for the NFL would finally give the league something that represents it well and can be a viable alternative for Madden.

It could also provide a template for Madden on how to approach Career mode.

I know that my approach to career modes in games like FIFA and Madden are always based off of my experiences with Football Manager, and it frustrates me no end to see a logical approach to teambuilding, ratings, scouting, progression and morale in a game and not in others.

As Ian is now developing for another company, is there any chance he could capitalise on this gap in the market and provide what he and we have always known we need for a worthy NFL title?

[BrianU]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

Oh how I wanted to like your post because the vast majority of it I agree with but then you threw in the bold. I won't rehash that topic but according to certain reports, the bold is inaccurate.

Overall though I think you make good points, even though admittedly by Ian Madden under his tenure could have been much better, even without competition, had they not "caved" to external pressure. I haven't gotten into that statement much because all it would do is frustrate me to think about but that seems clear to me that even with the external pressures Ian and the team were given some form of choice. I picture Tiburon as this echo chamber or "bubble" where somehow bad or at least unconventional design ideas become accepted over essentially common sense, in the guise of innovation. Many people over the years in the software field have posted on various boards that yes there are external pressures that give their two cents but that usually the final decision is up to those that are directly in charge of the product. A take that to mean it's rare that a "suit" or marketing is directly dictating to someone how to do things that individual has to sign their name to and be directly accountable for.

That's what I was getting at about it would have been nice if during his tenure when he was making those decisions Ian had taken time to try to see Madden in a different perspective. I mean think about it, Ian admittedly caved to the external pressure and chose to take Madden in a different direction for M11 than M10, maybe from self doubt due to external influences focus on sales that he mentioned were down or not great for M10, only to quit Tiburon sometime the next year anyway. I think the lesson from this is to have the courage of your conventions and don't worry about the things that are out of your control because.....they're out of your control.

That's where that "bubble" comes into play again, imo because most anyone outside looking in would have deduced that of course M10 sells would be down because so much was left unfinished, namely Online Franchise Mode and Franchise mode as a whole still missing features from last gen Madden, along with being nowhere near as deep as HC09. Yet Tiburon had the audacity to claim that most gamers don't even play career/franchise modes and some posters picked up that talking point claiming that OS Franchise players were a minority. (check out Spliff3000's sig). Yet M13 added CCM that was a buggy mess but the fact that it was fundamentally the same career mode offline or online gave it crazy metrics for Looman to tout that as a success.

Some people seem to be lauding Ian for this interview and I don't begrudge them that but looking back at the past, I have a different opinion on his revelations.

I don't think it takes audacity to state that most people do not play franchise mode online or offline. It is a pretty damn niche mode. Most people do not download custom rosters or use sliders. The entire point of CCM is to stop neglecting those modes and I think it is a revolutionary and exciting concept not because of the current state of it, but for laying a solid foundation. Like was mentioned FIFA 10 to FIFA 13 was a huge improvement that was planned and executed upon. You surely remember the years where they literally added NOTHING to online franchise. Not even different menu graphics. By integrating online and offline franchise as well as superstar mode, they can update one game mode instead of 3 separate ones which means they don't have to divide development time between the 3 or repeat their efforts to add features to each mode. I personally would like to see Play Now and CCM be more integrated and allow us to do things like pick uniforms and custom playbooks for the CPU team that you can't do in CCM but can in Play Now. There is a divide there that should not exist but it is not as huge as the previous 3 I mentioned were.

It is a bold vision and one they are sticking with by the looks of it, that is only a good thing. I felt Ian's interview was optimistic and my own view of Madden is optimistic. I am not a die hard who has played that long but I do love the game of football and I do want a solid football sim which we do not have yet. I just don't understand the negativity towards Ian nor towards Josh. EA Sports is heading in the right direction implementing online career modes attached to offline career modes as well as real time physics and player traits to all their sports franchises. That seems to me to be their unified vision that they are going for. The progress is not as quick as we would like but progress is and has been made.

My only complaint is I wish sports game were more like a sandbox that we had more control over to tune to the gameplay experience towards what we want which could be more arcade or more simulation. I do not like having to rely on the development team to get things right such as CPU playbooks or game speed. I want more ratings, more sliders, more customization. The Show is such a force because they give you 5 ways to hit and 5 ways to pitch and let you tune them how you wish. Every sports game should follow that lead.