OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummings

[roadman]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

Big, I know you are not riffing on me, just I don't see it that way.

I'm in the employment field and you don't bad mouth your present employer to co-workers, much less the media. Also, you defend your current employer in the media as well. ALso, you mention some of his anti-sim post, but he also had some sim posts here as well. Historically, I used to bring this up, but after Madden 10 came out, he posted a list of 25 things that OS posters wanted in the game and he stated that 90% of our suggestions were in the game. I do give him some credit from turning 10 into a more sim than the past, but then, 11 was not a good game and he explains why.

Once you are no longer a employee, and you are clear of any legal ramifications, the gloves can come off at your discreation and you feel more able to voice your opinion.

I expect there to be a difference of Ian the employee vs Ian the consumer.

Not trying to change your opinion on the matter.

Just stating there wasn't much different between the statements of AJ and Ian, when it all boils down to it.

Also, to note, Ian was the one that hired AJ.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

Big, I know you are not riffing on me, just I don't see it that way.

I'm in the employment field and you don't bad mouth your present employer to co-workers, much less the media. Also, you defend your current employer in the media as well. Once you are no longer a employee, and you are clear of any legal ramifications, the gloves can come off at your discreation and you feel more able to voice your opinion.

I expect there to be a difference of Ian the employee vs Ian the consumer.

Not trying to change your opinion on the matter.

Just stating there wasn't much different between the statements of AJ and Ian, when it all boils down to it.

Also, to note, Ian was the one that hired AJ.

But Road in much of that interview the things Ian is being critical of now, he was responsible for and in control of then. That's like me house sitting for a friend on vacation, doing a poor job of watering the plants, caring for their pets, lawn and keeping the house clean, then being critical of their housekeeping of the same home years later.

[MissionMaximus]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

No suit or marketing department, that I'm aware of, forced Ian to post on OS in his free time, among other places, things like, paraphrasing "NBA2k, that game is sim to the inth degree, Madden shouldn't go that far", "realistic penalties would make a Madden game too long", "the longer animations in 2k are the most fluid and realistic looking but we think the User control of shorter quicker branching animations is better", "AI for players on a User controlled team should NOT be the same as the AI for players on a CPU team", "Madden shouldn't try to be any other game it should just be the best Madden it can be", etc, on and on. Ian wasn't just carrying Tiburon's water back then, he was filling the buckets, was a shot caller, an integral part in why the game continued to be what it is under his tenure.

That's Madden to a tee. It's all about Head to Head and stick skills. Madden Nation doesn't want control taking away from their stick skills. Meaning nano blitzes, money plays, 5 minute quarters and no penalties. They don't want better animations dictating play they want stick skills with super-duper combos where you can break out of 5 men gang tackles with stick skills. The AI should be dumb as hell so that stick skills are all that matter. Hell with strategy it's about stick skills son. Let's make all players play the same regardless who it is or what their ratings are it's about...stick skills.
NBA2K and the Show.....NAWWW that's too realistic

[BrianU]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

That's Madden to a tee. It's all about Head to Head and stick skills. Madden Nation doesn't want control taking away from their stick skills. Meaning nano blitzes, money plays, 5 minute quarters and no penalties. They don't want better animations dictating play they want stick skills with super-duper combos where you can break out of 5 men gang tackles with stick skills. The AI should be dumb as hell so that stick skills are all that matter. Hell with strategy it's about stick skills son. Let's make all players play the same regardless who it is or what their ratings are it's about...stick skills.
NBA2K and the Show.....NAWWW that's too realistic

See I believe you are correct. The game is designed from the ground up to cater to that play style of online quick ranked games. The thing is don't understand why they can't create a separate mode called Simulation for our crowd with working penalties, better blocking, etc.. It would only create more profit for them.. I would invest a **** ton of money in MUT if I could play in 'simulation' mode. Same with ranked games. I don't go near either modes because the gameplay is so arcadey. It's pretty obvious that compromising and trying to mix sim and arcade is not ideal, let the arcade guys play that style and let us play our style keep the rankings and only modes independent we have the technology to build it!

[roadman]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

But Road in much of that interview the things Ian is being critical of now, he was responsible for and in control of then. That's like me house sitting for a friend on vacation, doing a poor job of watering the plants, caring for their pets, lawn and keeping the house clean, then being critical of their housekeeping of the same home years later.

So, I take it that you view his interview with a grain of salt?

He mentioned external factors three or four times during that interview, even though I know you don't like to hear "marketing and suits", but it might be more reality, especially conferring what AJ said.

The point I'm getting at, is if you say he was in control, and he mentions external factors more than a few times, how is that being in control?

Have you ever been in a situation where you took your ideas up the ladder in your place of employemt and have them shot down by higher ups and or other departments?

Happens all the time in business.

Yes, Ian was in charge back then, and it appears others had more say than Ian at times.

IE- Peter Moore

[SageInfinite]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

They just need to build a game totally built upon realism and authenticity of the sport. Then have slider sets in place for different play styles. They always take the shortest easiest route to their goal tho so, that'll never happen. These dudes just don't have the talent or the know how to make it happen. I blame the suits for features, but not how things function and are implemented. You can blame time constraints, but this game didn't just start coming out every year, it's always been that way. These dudes should have it under control by their 25th edition, lol.

[roadman]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

They just need to build a game totally built upon realism and authenticity of the sport. Then have slider sets in place for different play styles. They always take the shortest easiest route to their goal tho so, that'll never happen. These dudes just don't have the talent or the know how to make it happen. I blame the suits for features, but not how things function and are implemented. You can blame time constraints, but this game didn't just start coming out every year, it's always been that way. These dudes should have it under control by their 25th edition, lol.

The game coming out every year doesn't cut it for me. So, does FIFA, NBA2k and The Show. Agree with the implentation and functioning of the game, too.

[rootofalleli]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

i really dont believe the suits are the big problem with madden....the suits may be the problem with the game not taking bigger strides but what is on the disc isn't done right and done with little attention to detail...
this is not the suits fault.....this does not require any further budgeting/ hiring of staff

I agree with some points but upper management can create more problems than you give them credit for. If the budget is small enough and if the priorities are backwards, then it is hard to do a good job. I'm not apologizing for or praising the Madden devs - the people working on the game are probably pretty typical, with some talented, some not, some hard-working, some not, etc. Probably whatever talented people work at EA are giving up and not working their best or not getting their ideas in the game or just moving on to other jobs.

What I think is happening based on what Ian says (and the pircture AJ and other sources paint) is that talent and vision are being ignored in favor of polls and user statistics. Goals and priorities come from market surveys. Changes are reactive, not proactive. Improvements get ignored because that disk space or time could be spent on something that x% of users complained about or thought they wanted. I've worked at places where management had no real vision. When you feel like nothing will get done well or on time, you just try to hang on and save your own *** rather than do a good job. Working 16 hours to make something good sounds crazy when you're working 12 hours to get through all the irrelevant and impossible objectives you were handed.

At the risk of being extra lame, Steve Jobs said, "You can't just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new." He also said, "Simple can be harder than complex: You have to work hard to get your thinking clean to make it simple." Madden doesn't follow this philosophy at all. The game keeps trying to "be a better Madden" by making changes the masses think they want and disregarding everything else. The goals keep shifting as data comes in so nothing looks complete or polished because there's always a bigger fire to put out - they *build* a new fire every year just to be sure.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

So, I take it that you view his interview with a grain of salt?

He mentioned external factors three or four times during that interview, even though I know you don't like to hear "marketing and suits", but it might be more reality, especially conferring what AJ said.

The point I'm getting at, is if you say he was in control, and he mentions external factors more than a few times, how is that being in control?

Have you ever been in a situation where you took your ideas up the ladder in your place of employemt and have them shot down by higher ups and or other departments?

Happens all the time in business.

Yes, Ian was in charge back then, and it appears others had more say than Ian at times.

IE- Peter Moore

Well actually I'm taking his word at face value when he states "we caved", you can't cave if you don't have a choice. Yes I have personally had ideas and suggestions shot down by higher ups, I'm sure anyone who as ever had someone over them has. However I have also had higher ups offer their two cents about what they thought was the best course of action BUT then left the final decision up to me, with the understanding that the end result, good, bad or otherwise, was on me. To me external pressure is just that, outside forces attempting to influence a decision ultimately out of their control and accountability. If marketing and suits were in direct control, then there would be no pressure on Ian because they would be ultimately responsible for what happens, not him.

[roadman]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

Well actually I'm taking his word at face value when he states "we caved", you can't cave if you don't have a choice. Yes I have personally had ideas and suggestions shot down by higher ups, I'm sure anyone who as ever had someone over them has. However I have also had higher ups offer their two cents about what they thought was the best course of action BUT then left the final decision up to me, with the understanding that the end result, good, bad or otherwise, was on me. To me external pressure is just that, outside forces attempting to influence a decision ultimately out of their control and accountability. If marketing and suits were in direct control, then there would be no pressure on Ian because they would be ultimately responsible for what happens, not him.

That's just it, though, neither of us worked at Tibouron or know exactly the ins and out and the reporting structures of Tibouron. I agree with the poster above you.

Maybe he was in control of some things, but not all things? Again, without knowing the inner workings of Tibouron, how do we know?

If you are told you have X amount of budget, and you go upstairs and tell management you have this great idea of a physics engine, but it's going to put us way over the budget. Higher ups say, no chance, it's not happening, come up with an alternate plan.

A. You say to yourself, to heck with it, we're going over budget and I might lose my job over it.

B. You cave in, get your team together, and everyone come's up with an alternative plan, it's under budget and you work for one more day.

What choices are you left with? Job or no job.

Ultimately, Ian took that matter in his own hands after a few years as Creative Designer.

[SageInfinite]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

Also the higher ups at EA are very impatient. We saw that with NBA Live. They let Mike Wang leave because their wasn't an instant turn around. Brought in a hockey guy and they haven't released a game since, lol. While Mike Wang goes back to 2k to help make the stellar 2k11. These guys clearly get in the way too much, but that does not excuse the awful design decisions, implementation and vision of Tiburon.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

That's just it, though, neither of us worked at Tibouron or know exactly the ins and out and the reporting structures of Tibouron. I agree with the poster above you.

Maybe he was in control of some things, but not all things? Again, without knowing the inner workings of Tibouron, how do we know?

If you are told you have X amount of budget, and you go upstairs and tell management you have this great idea of a physics engine, but it's going to put us way over the budget. Higher ups say, no chance, it's not happening, come up with an alternate plan.

A. You say to yourself, to heck with it, we're going over budget and I might lose my job over it.

B. You cave in, get your team together, and everyone come's up with an alternative plan, it's under budget and you work for one more day.

What choices are you left with? Job or no job.

Ultimately, Ian took that matter in his own hands after a few years as Creative Designer.

We don't know, I'm only going by what Ian said in the interview. Again, Ian is not AJ, Ian was in a leadership role, arguably THE key leadership role for Madden at the time. It's like me and you are listening to two different interviews or at least have a completely different interpretation of what's being said. No biggie though.

[roadman]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

We don't know, I'm only going by what Ian said in the interview. Again, Ian is not AJ, Ian was in a leadership role, arguably THE key leadership role for Madden at the time. It's like me and you are listening to two different interviews or at least have a completely different interpretation of what's being said. No biggie though.

My last say on it is even if the roles were reversed, my whole point was it's interesting that both of them say similar things about the former company they worked for, regardless of roles.

If I recall, Phil Frazier was a step above Ian and I'm sure there were layers between Phil and Ian up to Peter Moore.

Now, be on the ready for a butt-whoppin' at Lambeau next week. lol

[Big FN Deal]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

I meant to ask this in my last post but Road how can Ian get credit for M10 and M12 yet avoid criticism for M11 when he was the Creative Director for all 3?

My last say on it is even if the roles were reversed, my whole point was it's interesting that both of them say similar things about the former company they worked for, regardless of roles.

If I recall, Phil Frazier was a step above Ian and I'm sure there were layers between Phil and Ian up to Peter Moore.

Now, be on the ready for a butt-whoppin' at Lambeau next week. lol

LOL. The Skins still have to handle business Monday Night before we focus on that.

[roadman]

Re: OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummin

I meant to ask this in my last post but Road how can Ian get credit for M10 and M12 yet avoid criticism for M11 when he was the Creative Director for all 3?



LOL. The Skins still have to handle business Monday Night before we focus on that.

Lol, love it.

Two out of 3 ain't bad, lol.

I critized 11 and hated it. I think Ian explained it away that 10 didn't sell, and there were things he wanted to do, but "caved in."

His name is on 11, so, yeah, he should be criticized for it.