Madden NFL 25 Next-Gen Gameplay Trailer and Four More War in the Trenches Videos

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Next-Gen Gameplay Trailer and Four More War in the Trenches Videos

No disrespect but turning the comparison into some sort of elitist "I'm better than you" deal is not the way to say it either. There is football logic in both games. The implementation of the logic can differ greatly but claiming a 2K player has more of a football mind than Madden player is a bit juvenile.

When both game co-existed I liked both and probably played more 2k5 than Madden during those years. I think Madden was just way behind what 2K5 was doing then but now whether anyone wants to accept or acknowledge it Madden is not as bad as people claim and Madden 25 is probably their best version to date. Its nowhere near perfect or even great but Its a serviceable game, its gotten further away from the arcade nonsense (not saying it doesn't exist) and given its all we got the only thing I can do is hope that they keep making positive strides.

I could be wrong, and I should probably let him answer for himself lol, but I don't think that's what he meant. Maybe I shouldn't even say that.

I'll say this. What I take from what he said, wasn't really that 2K players are smarter than Madden players, but that the fan bases are different in what they expect out of the game.

Madden is a renowned tournament game. There are huge Madden tourneys with huge amount's of prize money at stake. The finals of which is played in Times Square on a giant stadium-esque type screen. it also had it's own TV show. It has an internet/tourney following and culture associated with it that NFL 2K doesn't really have. That being the case, it also has a different kind of pressure from a large segment of its fan base that 2K doesn't have.

A lot of people who play Madden expect certain things. They expect total control. They expect to be able to do anything practically, whether it has a foundation in Football principles or not, and they expect it to be viable in the game, as long as they put sufficient hours into practicing what ever it is they want to do. This is just reality.

For many, Madden is Tekken or Street Fighter. If it's in the game, and the game is on the line, then it should be used. If they work 2yrs on learning exactly how many frames of animation every move in the game uses, and know which ones use the least and leave them the least open, then they will use those moves, and only those moves, the entire match. There could be 100 combos or juggles in the game for a given situation, but they will only use the ones that do the most damage and that's it. It's just a different mindset. A tourney mindset.

Nothing wrong with it. It's just not something that 2K had to deal with so it freed them up to design the game a different way.

It's no different than COD, which is another tourney-centric influenced game. Not to say that there are no Battlefield tournaments, but it is not on the same level as COD in that regard, neither are their fan bases the same in that regard, and therefore the philosophies of the game are a little different.

Basically, I just think that the fan bases of Madden and 2K are different. Not that there aren't plenty that enjoy both, as I do (or used to anyway), but when looked at as a whole, I think that even from the somewhat casual segment of Madden players, they still have a more tourney expectation of Madden. The tourney is just against friends and family, as opposed to in Times Square, but the expectation is still the same. Madden is an anything goes head to head game.

That thinking is what leads to the nano-blitzes, and money plays, and goal line or dime defense all game, that you see, the same way that that mentality leads to infinite combos in an MVC or Street Fighter game. Just win, baby.

It is also what leads to the game being developed where those things are more prevalent. They know exactly who their fan base is.

Not dumber than the 2K fan base. Just a large segment of it has different expectations of what they want from a Football Videogame.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Next-Gen Gameplay Trailer and Four More War in the Trenches Videos

I could be wrong, and I should probably let him answer for himself lol, but I don't think that's what he meant. Maybe I shouldn't even say that.

I'll say this. What I take from what he said, wasn't really that 2K players are smarter than Madden players, but that the fan bases are different in what they expect out of the game.

Madden is a renowned tournament game. There are huge Madden tourneys with huge amount's of prize money at stake. The finals of which is played in Times Square on a giant stadium-esque type screen. it also had it's own TV show. It has an internet/tourney following and culture associated with it that NFL 2K doesn't really have. That being the case, it also has a different kind of pressure from a large segment of its fan base that 2K doesn't have.

A lot of people who play Madden expect certain things. They expect total control. They expect to be able to do anything practically, whether it has a foundation in Football principles or not, and they expect it to be viable in the game, as long as they put sufficient hours into practicing what ever it is they want to do. This is just reality.

For many, Madden is Tekken or Street Fighter. If it's in the game, and the game is on the line, then it should be used. If they work 2yrs on learning exactly how many frames of animation every move in the game uses, and know which ones use the least and leave them the least open, then they will use those moves, and only those moves, the entire match. There could be 100 combos or juggles in the game for a given situation, but they will only use the ones that do the most damage and that's it. It's just a different mindset. A tourney mindset.

Nothing wrong with it. It's just not something that 2K had to deal with so it freed them up to design the game a different way.

It's no different than COD, which is another tourney-centric influenced game. Not to say that there are no Battlefield tournaments, but it is not on the same level as COD in that regard, neither are their fan bases the same in that regard, and therefore the philosophies of the game are a little different.

Basically, I just think that the fan bases of Madden and 2K are different. Not that there aren't plenty that enjoy both, as I do (or used to anyway), but when looked at as a whole, I think that even from the somewhat casual segment of Madden players, they still have a more tourney expectation of Madden. The tourney is just against friends and family, as opposed to in Times Square, but the expectation is still the same. Madden is an anything goes head to head game.

That thinking is what leads to the nano-blitzes, and money plays, and goal line or dime defense all game, that you see, the same way that that mentality leads to infinite combos in an MVC or Street Fighter game. Just win, baby.

It is also what leads to the game being developed where those things are more prevalent. They know exactly who their fan base is.

Not dumber than the 2K fan base. Just a large segment of it has different expectations of what they want from a Football Videogame.

LT - Get out of my head!!!!!!!! LOL.

This post could not be more correct. This is EXACTLY what I meant. If you've ever watched "Madden" players play in a competitive environment, they spend HOURS mastering certain plays that will ALWAYS generate pressure, for example. Or a play that ALWAYS works. If the slightest thing goes wrong, they have a fit. They don't want to see dropped passes, or bad snaps, or players tripping, or any of the realistic elements. They want everything to work all of the time.

There is a guy in one of the leagues I play in who is a madden master. He doesn't even like football in real life and doesn't even follow the NFL. He never played football or studied the game, but he likes playing Madden and right now he's undefeated in a very, very competitive and good league. That tells you all you need to know right there.

When I made the switch to online leagues in 2004, a lot of the guys who came over to 2k5 were all Madden players. They struggled big time in the beginning and were frustrated. You couldn't run around like a chicken with your head cut off with the QB. You couldn't drop back 30 yards and throw perfect bombs to your receiver. You couldn't swerve in and out of the defense, you actually had to follow your blocks and wait for the play to develop. Drives would stall on pass interference penalties or illegal man downfield. You get my point here?

The mentality is different. That was the point I was trying to convey which LT relayed perfectly.

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Next-Gen Gameplay Trailer and Four More War in the Trenches Videos

LT - Get out of my head!!!!!!!! LOL.

This post could not be more correct. This is EXACTLY what I meant. If you've ever watched "Madden" players play in a competitive environment, they spend HOURS mastering certain plays that will ALWAYS generate pressure, for example. Or a play that ALWAYS works. If the slightest thing goes wrong, they have a fit. They don't want to see dropped passes, or bad snaps, or players tripping, or any of the realistic elements. They want everything to work all of the time.

There is a guy in one of the leagues I play in who is a madden master. He doesn't even like football in real life and doesn't even follow the NFL. He never played football or studied the game, but he likes playing Madden and right now he's undefeated in a very, very competitive and good league. That tells you all you need to know right there.

When I made the switch to online leagues in 2004, a lot of the guys who came over to 2k5 were all Madden players. They struggled big time in the beginning and were frustrated. You couldn't run around like a chicken with your head cut off with the QB. You couldn't drop back 30 yards and throw perfect bombs to your receiver. You couldn't swerve in and out of the defense, you actually had to follow your blocks and wait for the play to develop. Drives would stall on pass interference penalties or illegal man downfield. You get my point here?

The mentality is different. That was the point I was trying to convey which LT relayed perfectly.

Lol. I wish I could get into the heads of Tiburon employees, but I digress.

This is something that I do see with Madden, that I don't see as much, and I don't think exists on the same scale, as it does in NFL 2K. I think that there are many people that aren't big Football fans, or who don't watch much Football, if any, that like Madden. They are just competitive people, and see that Madden is a game with tourney cred, and that's enough for them.

It is a testament to what Tiburon has created, if you take a step back and think about it. It is a major negative though if you're a fan of sim Football.

The second part I bolded isn't totally fair though. While I do believe (I don't have any raw data to back it up) that there is a larger contingent of the Madden fan base that may not be all that into Football, than say 2K's, I don't think that saying that someone who has no Football knowledge being great at Madden, necessarily means that Madden is flawed.

I'm sure most people that are good at ARMA have never actually been in a war. I know I've never been, yet I'm very good at every shooter I've ever played. It's mostly reflexes, dexterity, learning maps, and learning player tendencies or strategies on a given map. I don't care what shooter you are talking about, if you have those areas down, you will be good at it. In fact you could be great at it if you only had the first two in spades. I'm also equally sure that there are plenty of people who could be great at NFL 2K with little knowledge of the NFL. As great as those games were, and as much as they were more realistic than Madden, they are still games, and with the right amount of genes and practice time, you could still make real world football knowledge irrelevant. Just like any other game.

I agree with the rest though.

[wordtobigbird]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Next-Gen Gameplay Trailer and Four More War in the Trenches Videos

I just want making the correct football decision to be the same as the correct Madden decision. Hard to tell my friends that they should play nickle or dime when I call formations with more WRs if they can run 4-3 all game and it works just fine..

Could create 20 examples of football vs madden decisions.

[wordtobigbird]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Next-Gen Gameplay Trailer and Four More War in the Trenches Videos

I'm sure most people that are good at ARMA have never actually been in a war. I know I've never been, yet I'm very good at every shooter I've ever played. It's mostly reflexes, dexterity, learning maps, and learning player tendencies or strategies on a given map. I don't care what shooter you are talking about, if you have those areas down, you will be good at it. In fact you could be great at it if you only had the first two in spades. I'm also equally sure that there are plenty of people who could be great at NFL 2K with little knowledge of the NFL. As great as those games were, and as much as they were more realistic than Madden, they are still games, and with the right amount of genes and practice time, you could still make real world football knowledge irrelevant. Just like any other game.

As far as this comparison goes.. you can use those same criteria (reflexes, dexterity, learning tendencies) to be good at any game. But my friends who do really well in BF3 do better because they are playing as if they are in war, as if they only have own life. So they ALWAYS check their corners consistently, always make sure they are in cover before taking on someone, know when to attack/retreat based on enemy having a shotgun/sniper etc. Because playing unrealistically (running into the open, heading into a hallway where the enemy has a shotgun, trying to kill someone in a tank with an anti-infantry weapon, etc) doesn't work. So while they may not have the best reflexes, playing with their brain leads to KDs above 2-3. In Madden, playing unrealistic football works just fine and sometimes even better than playing realistically. So you can be great at Madden using completely unrealistic tactics.

So you can definitely be good at any football game without much football knowledge but the game shouldn't reward you for playing unrealistically.

[cody.stevens]

blocking does look good, but all plays were the 4 d-linemen rushing no lb's or defensive backs blitzed. I want to see how the line picks them up.

[dat swag]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Next-Gen Gameplay Trailer and Four More War in the Trenches Videos

blocking does look good, but all plays were the 4 d-linemen rushing no lb's or defensive backs blitzed. I want to see how the line picks them up.

I believe the video with the Panthers showed a DB blitzing. Take a look at that one again

[royounggoku]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Next-Gen Gameplay Trailer and Four More War in the Trenches Videos

I believe the video with the Panthers showed a DB blitzing. Take a look at that one again

Yea and if I remember correctly dude gets trucked

[LBzrule]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Next-Gen Gameplay Trailer and Four More War in the Trenches Videos

I believe the video with the Panthers showed a DB blitzing. Take a look at that one again

It's not an example that I am high on. I would like to see two videos. I would like to see a video where the line successfully picks up a blitz. But then I would like to see a video where the line does not pick up the same blitz. Then they need to tell us from their perspective as they create this game why the line picked it up in the one video and why it did not pick it up in the other. Just based on Oldenburg's words from the Q&A, there are nano blitzes in the game. And it sounds like they are aware of it.

[wordtobigbird]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Next-Gen Gameplay Trailer and Four More War in the Trenches Videos

It's not an example that I am high on. I would like to see two videos. I would like to see a video where the line successfully picks up a blitz. But then I would like to see a video where the line does not pick up the same blitz. Then they need to tell us from their perspective as they create this game why the line picked it up in the one video and why it did not pick it up in the other. Just based on Oldenburg's words from the Q&A, there are nano blitzes in the game. And it sounds like they are aware of it.

I hated the way he answered the nano blitz question. It sounded like this to me: yeah they are still there (obviously because the playbooks are probably exactly the same) but the offensive lines are improved to pick up blitzes better and you can get natural pressure so you won't need nanos.

If its there people will abuse it. Period.

[NicVirtue]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Next-Gen Gameplay Trailer and Four More War in the Trenches Videos

In terms of Nano Blitzes, yeah it sucks they exist, but it has been possible to do in damn near every football game, even Backbreaker, and 2k Football games. I don't see how they could fix such a problem without breaking something else on the offensive or defensive side of the ball. Maybe I'm wrong and there is a way to fix the problem, but from the sounds of the answer he gave, it will still be possible in Madden 25 Next Gen

[wordtobigbird]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Next-Gen Gameplay Trailer and Four More War in the Trenches Videos

In terms of Nano Blitzes, yeah it sucks they exist, but it has been possible to do in damn near every football game, even Backbreaker, and 2k Football games. I don't see how they could fix such a problem without breaking something else on the offensive or defensive side of the ball. Maybe I'm wrong and there is a way to fix the problem, but from the sounds of the answer he gave, it will still be possible in Madden 25 Next Gen

Definitely not saying it is a Madden exclusive problem but I've personally never played Backbreaker or APF pass the demos (I need the NFL teams/players) but I think it is definitely fixable.. Nano blitzes pretty much glitch out the AI, so the AI has to be improved to the point where you can't do such a thing. If you can still line up the players just right that the game glitches.. thats not good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov1JNMu1CnI

We should get a definitive "no" when asked if this type of stuff is possible. (Note, I just kind of scanned the video. I don't know how they do this, don't care to know and don't try to learn things like this and money plays. I just know of them and see them when I play online. So I'm no nanoblitzing expert)

[dat swag]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Next-Gen Gameplay Trailer and Four More War in the Trenches Videos

It's not an example that I am high on. I would like to see two videos. I would like to see a video where the line successfully picks up a blitz. But then I would like to see a video where the line does not pick up the same blitz. Then they need to tell us from their perspective as they create this game why the line picked it up in the one video and why it did not pick it up in the other. Just based on Oldenburg's words from the Q&A, there are nano blitzes in the game. And it sounds like they are aware of it.

Given that I'm primarily an online player only I'm thinking that the defensive animations resulting in sacks will be more prevalent since alot of the line shifts and stunts will be the responsibility of the user to deal with. Not saying it won't be seen or prevalent against the CPU just thinking that human error will be greater than CPU error in my quest to see the Defensive sack animations

[LBzrule]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Next-Gen Gameplay Trailer and Four More War in the Trenches Videos

Given that I'm primarily an online player only I'm thinking that the defensive animations resulting in sacks will be more prevalent since alot of the line shifts and stunts will be the responsibility of the user to deal with. Not saying it won't be seen or prevalent against the CPU just thinking that human error will be greater than CPU error in my quest to see the Defensive sack animations

That's all I play too. I'm still in the air as to what we will be dealing with here. I'm hearing the right things:

1) Line play improved
2) DLine is much better forming a pocket and getting pressure
3) Zone coverage improved
4) Man coverage improved

All of that sounds good, but is it for the cpu? Is it for my team and the cpu? Can I count on my teammates to be where they are supposed to so I can do things? Are my teammates going to crouch and not attack the WR or ball carrier getting stuck in that animation making it impossible for me to make a play when I switch over like current gen?

Again I hear a lot of good stuff.

[N51_rob]

Re: Madden NFL 25 Next-Gen Gameplay Trailer and Four More War in the Trenches Videos

Gentlemen I just want to remind everyone this is a Madden thread and we need to limit some of the 2K talk. It can be disruptive and turn this into a 2K vs Madden tread which would = a closed thread so please keep that in mind. Thanks.


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