Sports Daily: LeBron's Declaration

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Sports Daily: LeBron's Declaration

Wouldn't waste your typing OJ

[Dice]

Re: Sports Daily: LeBron's Declaration

I see no problem with it. I really don't have to wait for him to retire to validate his greatness. I think he's one of the top 4 players of all-time.

Heck, when Michael Jordan was in his 8th season, there was no question in my mind that he was the greatest basketball player I've seen play. And he only had 2 rings and 3 MVP's at that time. I didn't have to wait for his career to end. I already knew, like everyone else at that time.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Sports Daily: LeBron's Declaration

I don't think Lebron will ever reach the reverance that MJ, Russell, Bird, or Magic have. Those guys meant so much more to the game than there on the floor statistics would indicate. I think Lebron will be grouped in with Wilt, KAJ, Oscar, etc. Great players, probably as good if not better than the players listed above, but they just didn't have the impact that my "Mount Rushmore" has.

I've kinda wondered this for awhile now. Regardless of how good I think LeBron is I've always sorta questioned if he would have the "legacy" guys like Russell, Jordan, Magic, Bird have... Even if he got to the point to where individually he was a better player than any of them (not saying that's the case, just a what if scenario) would he have the legacy to get him in that conversation..

It's like with my personal preference, I can list off a handful of players who I think individually were all around better basketball players than Magic was.. But I rank Magic 3rd on my All-Time list, and it's more-so for his legacy and impact on the league, and various other intangible factors, rather than his numbers or how great he was individually.

It's like with Dr. J.. He's an iconic basketball figure, helped pave the way for the above the rim excitement we see from other guys since him. Basically the ABA's Jordan, and regarded as one of the very best players of all time.. But in reality there are very few aspects of his game that were really at that elite level, he was never at the dominance level that the other guys who's names he's always mentioned with. But he has the "legacy" he's an icon.

[tarek]

Lebron will round out an era of potentially great players with the likes of Durant, Love, Westbrook, Paul, Curry, etc

However, like Rocky mentioned earlier, I don't believe Lebron will hold the reverence he believes should be afforded to him, but it won't be because of his accomplishments. All great players are marred with crossroads that define their careers, these crossroads ingrain long term memories for those who remember the game and history before it.

Lebron will have accomplishments, he will also have a history. I can't predict what will come about with him in the future, but to me there are some red flags every time I consider Lebron. The decision is primary. The consistent playoff meltdowns are another. The arrogance. And my own personal belief that in an era of PEDs, the trajectory of Lebron James' physique and longevity make me seriously question his abilities.

Barry Bonds was an all time great, and everyone marvelled at his complete dominance and power. It is the same dominance through power that defines Lebron. And when I watch elite players such as Rose, Westbrook, Paul and others all succumb to significant injuries, it makes me question how one man can be built and withstand such events considering the physical way in which they play.

For me personally, Lebron will never be one of the greats. He never inspired me. He never made me believe in the grandeur and splendor of sports. He'll have another 5-10 years to shape that, and we'll see what happens.

[BringTheHeat]

Re: Sports Daily: LeBron's Declaration

Lebron will round out an era of potentially great players with the likes of Durant, Love, Westbrook, Paul, Curry, etc

However, like Rocky mentioned earlier, I don't believe Lebron will hold the reverence he believes should be afforded to him, but it won't be because of his accomplishments. All great players are marred with crossroads that define their careers, these crossroads ingrain long term memories for those who remember the game and history before it.

Lebron will have accomplishments, he will also have a history. I can't predict what will come about with him in the future, but to me there are some red flags every time I consider Lebron. The decision is primary. The consistent playoff meltdowns are another. The arrogance. And my own personal belief that in an era of PEDs, the trajectory of Lebron James' physique and longevity make me seriously question his abilities.

Barry Bonds was an all time great, and everyone marvelled at his complete dominance and power. It is the same dominance through power that defines Lebron. And when I watch elite players such as Rose, Westbrook, Paul and others all succumb to significant injuries, it makes me question how one man can be built and withstand such events considering the physical way in which they play.

For me personally, Lebron will never be one of the greats. He never inspired me. He never made me believe in the grandeur and splendor of sports. He'll have another 5-10 years to shape that, and we'll see what happens.

Great opinion. Don't agree with the PED part but I'm sure they'll be an investigation sooner of later so we will see.

As far as arrogance and attitude..can't really blame LeBron. When ESPN is at your door at 14 years old you don't really get the chance to mature and learn to be "humble" or whatever everyone likes. I personally don't have a problem with people who know they're good and will tell you. I never have understood people's complaints about LeBron's attitude.

And I really think the question was poorly worded. Mount Rushmore doesn't have the four greatest presidents 1,2,3,4. It has presidents who made an impact, not just are the "best" so I'm saying LeBron will be the number 1 or 2 best player when it's all said and done, but he won't have the "impact" like others have had, and that's not a bad thing. LeBron had an impact on me I know, inspired me and made me love the game even more, but to each their own.

As far as what Mount Rushmore really is about, impact, I'd say it'd be Russell, Wilt, Dr. J, and MJ.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Sports Daily: LeBron's Declaration

LeBron never had "consistent" playoff meltdowns. Every time he played poorly it was just magnified by BSPN and media.. His great moments FAR FAR FAR outweighed any bad moments in the playoffs.. He's one of the better playoff performers of all time, broke numerous records in Miami's first championship run and is still the all time leading scoring average in close-out games and in game 7's..

Not sure how his few mishaps are any worse than Jordan losing 3 straight years to the Pistons, and letting Anderson steal the ball from him in arguably the biggest play of the series they lost to Orlando. Wilt was 2 for 13 in his playoff runs, not sure how many times he lost to Russell and shot him team out of games. Jerry West failed in the finals 8 or 9 times before he finally got it done (with Wilt). Dr. J could never get over the hump until MVP Moses came to lead his team. The list goes on and on man...

As for PEDs that's completely illogical. From the late 60s-early 80s the NBA was a hotbed of drug users, are you really going to suggest all those guys snorting coke, and injecting whatever never used steroids?? Hell look at Wilt, most physically imposing player ever.. The guys he worked out with? Arnold, Andre the Giant, etc.. All them were roid users.. Who's to suggest Wilt didn't as well? Hell I'd bet my own money that he did, not that I care either way... Are we to assume any insane athlete who stayed healthy took drugs??? Might as well add Jordan to the list, who avoided injuries even after retiring and returning out of shape and damn near 40..are we going to assume Duncan, Malone, Kobe, Etc all used PEDs because they stayed healthy?

At least LeBron plays in an era where PED use is actually tested... Not back in time where it didn't matter and was more so frowned upon than illegal..

Smh, doesn't bother me if someone does or doesn't view LeBron as highly as some other greats.. But it's ridiculous to be that double-standard about it.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Sports Daily: LeBron's Declaration

Adding to your double-standard view.. Arrogance?

Please Wilt could very well be the most cocky/arrogant basketball player or athlete who's ever lived.. And Jordan was close to the worse I've seen in my lifetime.. Doesn't bother me any because they backed it up. I actually loved Jordan for it.. But LeBron backs it up too, and really doesn't do anything worse or more "arrogant" than most players in the league..

Again, I don't care if you place LeBron as the greatest ever or outside of your top 30, but just keep the double-standard mess out of your judgements..

Smh, end rant.. Sorry that's my biggest pet peeve.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Sports Daily: LeBron's Declaration

I'd say LeBron being the face of this 'media' era is enough impact in itself. We complain about all this LeBron over exposure on ESPN etc....it's pretty unprecedented...the global exposure he's getting as well...being called "the best in the world" constantly...assuming he doesn't crash and burn in some type of way...he will absolutely be remembered as having an impact on the game...

You have to think big picture....nobody remembers or cares about little petty stuff....(lol @ "arrogance" effecting his legacy). The guys we remember fondly weren't the most stand up guys in the world....we remember how dominant they were and how much we enjoyed watching them....

[ojandpizza]

Re: Sports Daily: LeBron's Declaration

Besides if we were doing this impact only thing it shouldn't be Russell or Wilt coming in as that first iconic guy. George Mikan was the first dominant big man and the leagues first superstar.. He's basically the first to show everyone that basketball, unlike most sports, can be influenced largely by a single player.

And while I don't think anybody would value him as "good of a player" as most of these other guys his impact on the game was just as much. He dominated his own era as much as any other player did. And just as with Wilt, rules were made and changed because of his dominance.

[tarek]

Seems like some people got put out of place with the term 'arrogant' used to define Lebron. The term is defined as "having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities". Now, if you read that and don't believe Lebron acts in an arrogant fashion, then please explain.
And from my point of view, there is no double standard. You know who else was arrogant? Muhammad Ali. It can also be considered, cockiness, confidence, etc. But it's also arrogance.
In this case, the difference is that in Ali's case, those few moments of his career that came to define his career shaped it in a different way. People often associate Ali with his conversion to Islam, with his incarceration for refusing to fight in Vietnam, and his victory over Foreman. His boxing statistics show that he is one of the greats, along with others, but it's those moments that make him different and consolidate the view of greatness many people (myself included) have of him.
As I said with Lebron, his iconic moments so far have not been the same. He's won two titles, he's got MVPs, he's got accomplishments. But his iconic moments revolve around two major things, his treatment of Cleveland and the decision, and the fact that he helped form a super team in Miami and only then was able to win. I'm not doubting he's a dominant player.
The simple fact that there is such a split between those who think he's top 4 and those who don't even think he's top 10 all time, that's telling. Now as I also said, he's got another 5-10 years to influence the completion of his basketball career, so who knows what will happen.
For what it's worth, I don't consider wilt greater than Russell. I think Mikan is one of the true greats.
And on the question of PEDs, there is a difference between rec drugs and performance drugs. The 1970s NBA was rife with rec drug use, which had negative impact on performance (players were not engaged, not performing, etc). PEDs are far different as they aim to produce a tangible performance benefit over an opponent. I don't accuse Lebron of being a PED user, but it wouldn't surprise me. When I hear the term 'freak of nature' I become skeptical. You look at lebron and he's built like Karl Malone, but Malone was relatively slow and unathletic. A guy like durant hits the weight room hard, and he's still quite gaunt and wiry. When you look at the bulk of a guy like lebron, in addition to the cardio he performs daily (he's not a post player, he runs and moves ALOT every game) how can't it raise questions? Remember people thought the achievements of lance Armstrong were amazing, unprecedented and 'superhuman'. And then what happened? A body like lebrons is either an evolutionary specimen of humanity, or it's had some kind of 'boost'. I frankly don't know which it is, no idea.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Sports Daily: LeBron's Declaration

Karl Malone's game revolved around him being quicker than most other power forwards, he either beat everyone up the court or rolled to the basket quick enough to get open. Was never a slow or unathletic player.

I don't think anybody tried to say LeBron wasn't arrogant? But the thing is nearly every other great player was. It is double standard to hold it against one guy and not another. To suggest guys like Jordan or Wilt weren't just as arrogant if not more is laughable..

Same thing with forming a super team.. Which of these other guys ever won anything without a big 3 or 4??? It's double standard to for some reason hold that against LeBron but not everyone else.

And how do you have any idea how often Kevin Durant lifts weights? lol the dude couldn't bench the one rep max in the combine.. Nothing against him but that doesn't scream "hits the weight room hard".

And again you have no idea who or who didn't use steroids in the 70s and who or who doesn't use PEDs now. I'm guessing you've never saw LeBron in person because his "evolutionary specimen" of a body isn't that huge. I know plenty of guys bigger than him, especially other atheltes.. He's big for a basketball player yes, but it's nothing unimaginable you're acting like he has a superheroes body.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Sports Daily: LeBron's Declaration

Btw, I don't know how Islam or Vietnam, or boxing have any relation to this topic at all.. But Ali is widely considered the GOAT.. Hell his nickname is "The Greatest".

[ehh]

Re: Sports Daily: LeBron's Declaration

Karl Malone's game revolved around him being quicker than most other power forwards, he either beat everyone up the court or rolled to the basket quick enough to get open. Was never a slow or unathletic player.

Yeah, despite the fact that he looked like Tarzan he was definitely a bit of a finesse player, same goes with David Robinson. Both were quick too.

[tarek]

Btw, I don't know how Islam or Vietnam, or boxing have any relation to this topic at all.. But Ali is widely considered the GOAT.. Hell his nickname is "The Greatest".

Every single sport (hell even ever scientific field and academic field) has it's argument of who is the 'greatest', most successful, most influential, etc. So it can be very relevant to this topic, since they all follow a similar process. Or I should say, we as people follow a similar process.
This topic always brings out confirmation bias. I have my own, you have your own. There is no clear cut outcome. I can say that Kobe is better than MJ, I can say MJ is better than Magic, I can say Magic is better than Lebron, etc etc.
That's the thing when it comes to opinion, everyone values something different.

[RedSceptile]

Re: Sports Daily: LeBron's Declaration

LeBron isn't the 1st of his kind. People act like he's some beyond unique specimen. What about a guy like Michael Phelps whose body is pretty much tailored to swimming, it was always stated how creepy his body was almost engineered for swimming. Or Robert Nkemdiche who is freaking 300 lbs with a solid six pack, a freak specimen. Please let's not act like there aren't other guys who are freak athletes.