Madden: What to Look for Out of the NFL Offseason

[SVCbearcat10]

Re: Madden: What to Look for Out of the NFL Offseason

The five best games I played last generation were Portal (less than 650 MB on XBOX 360), Portal 2 (4.5 GB on XBOX 360), Rock Band 2 (4.6 GB on XBOX 360), NBA 2K11 (6.7 GB on XBOX 360) and Minecraft (113 MB on XBOX 360). As you can see the disc footprints of those games are all over the board, yet all are great games. Game mechanics are a far greater piece of the puzzle, and that's just code which has a trivial disc footprint.

If Madden doubled its disc footprint, the only immediate results you'd see are higher-res textures, higher-poly-count geometry, and a larger sound bank to draw from for commentary (note that this is completely separate from the commentary being any smarter, that is all code-side).

Again, file size absolutely has no bearing on how fun a game is.

I understand your point and agree to a certain extent. However, let's look at sports games specifically, since the goal is real life simulation. I still play my NES from time to time and love Tecmo Super Bowl. I probably enjoy it more than any recent copy of Madden. However, times have changed for sports games. Having 4 offensive and 4 defensive plays is now unacceptable. Expectations out of sports game back then weren't that high and all were arcade like, because that's all the technology would allow.

I guess I'm arguing that footprint may matter more in sports game. Having accurate faces for all players is important, realistic stadiums and cities are important, details in the gear is important. While, like you said, those don't make the game better per say, it goes hand in hand with recreating what you see on TV (which is part of the goal and what makes the games fun). The technology is there to produce a life-like product. When they don't put in the extra content for realistic sidelines, player models, variety of player models; then, bugs in gameplay are focused on even more. That in turn makes the game worse because you are less likely to overlook these flaws.

In short, yes I agree with you because I find some older games (like NES) just as fun as PS4 games. However in sports, the attention to detail is every bit as important as the gameplay itself. That's what takes the game from being good to great and that's the direction Madden needs to take.

[Hooe]

Re: Madden: What to Look for Out of the NFL Offseason

In short, yes I agree with you because I find some older games (like NES) just as fun as PS4 games. However in sports, the attention to detail is every bit as important as the gameplay itself. That's what takes the game from being good to great and that's the direction Madden needs to take.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, particularly with respect to Madden which lags behind its simulation sports game counterparts with respect to attention to detail. That doesn't make it a not-fun or not-good game for me - I've spent quite a lot of time playing Madden over the years, so I obviously enjoy it - but it certainly doesn't capture the little nuances of the NFL the way NBA 2K captures the minutiae of the sport it strives to represent.

[elgreazy1]

The problem is management and suits who have absolutely nothing to do with the creation and development with the games. I've seen far too many times creative teams (across design, advertising, gaming, etc) having to crumble or submit to half-thought marketing campaigns that turn into "features" instead of add-ons. It's a complete waste of the creators' time and resources and it doesn't allow the creators any time to polish or improve the final product.

[MossMan84]

Lets face it... We are all doomed when it comes to a great NFL football sim! The Golden Age of NFL football video games has come and gone sadly. What I dont understand is why the foundation of the game was never properly built in the 1st place but like others said why fix something when it sells like hot cakes. Madden 25 for ps4 was some what better than the 360 version I had but the appeal didnt last for very long as I am back to simming seasons on my ps2 with 05. And as far as cut scenes go its just to cover up glaring issues they are having with the game!

[Bruce LeRoy]

Re: Madden: What to Look for Out of the NFL Offseason

The problem is management and suits who have absolutely nothing to do with the creation and development with the games. I've seen far too many times creative teams (across design, advertising, gaming, etc) having to crumble or submit to half-thought marketing campaigns that turn into "features" instead of add-ons. It's a complete waste of the creators' time and resources and it doesn't allow the creators any time to polish or improve the final product.

Hate to bring 2K up again, but it seems as if 2K Sports devs have way more lead way than Madden devs. This is the problem with exclusive license, a game goes from being creative and innovative as possible to being only a money making machine. Management is afraid to take chances with Madden because they just want to make their exclusive license money back plus more.

[FreAk47]

Well, if the NFL can just keep doing away with things involving kicking, the broken wind meter might just eventually correct itself...but I digress.

What do I expect from next gen Madden? Nothing. It's just as dumb to hope that this game will change as it is to hope the exclusive license is gone. This game just absolutely lacks any "Wow" factor...it never does anything creative or innovative. You would think one of the top selling sports games of all time would be on the cutting edge of every thing...but it's not. Games before it have done better, games representing other sports do better, and what does Madden do? Nothing...just bobbing along riding that exclusive license.

[TheBuddyHobbs]

Re: Madden: What to Look for Out of the NFL Offseason

Madden by far has the ugliest animations of any sports game on next-gen and it's not even close. The picture in the OP is an example of that. Nobody looks like that catching the ball... lol...

[TheBuddyHobbs]

Re: Madden: What to Look for Out of the NFL Offseason

Maybe past 2k NBA games, but I traded mine in after 2 months. The push of VC and online connectivity was bothersome.

Good article. Time will tell what happens.

VC was a terrible idea and should be killed. I'm not an online player as far as sports games go. So I can't really comment on it as far as that. I do know one thing though. The gameplay, animations, presentation, and graphics were great in NBA. Those are the most important areas of a sports game and those are the areas Madden always lacks in. I think that's why it's much a better game than Madden.

[TheBuddyHobbs]

Re: Madden: What to Look for Out of the NFL Offseason

The five best games I played last generation were Portal (less than 650 MB on XBOX 360), Portal 2 (4.5 GB on XBOX 360), Rock Band 2 (4.6 GB on XBOX 360), NBA 2K11 (6.7 GB on XBOX 360) and Minecraft (113 MB on XBOX 360). As you can see the disc footprints of those games are all over the board, yet all are great games. Game mechanics are a far greater piece of the puzzle, and that's just code which has a trivial disc footprint.

If Madden doubled its disc footprint, the only immediate results you'd see are higher-res textures, higher-poly-count geometry, and a larger sound bank to draw from for commentary (note that this is completely separate from the commentary being any smarter, that is all code-side).

Again, file size absolutely has no bearing on how fun a game is.

I don't think the disc space argument with last-gen products is a good route to go. This is a new and much bigger generation of games.

[roadman]

Re: Madden: What to Look for Out of the NFL Offseason

VC was a terrible idea and should be killed. I'm not an online player as far as sports games go. So I can't really comment on it as far as that. I do know one thing though. The gameplay, animations, presentation, and graphics were great in NBA. Those are the most important areas of a sports game and those are the areas Madden always lacks in. I think that's why it's much a better game than Madden.

I would agree with you, but after two months of an unplayable game on my end, I lost all patience.

I couldn't enjoy what you mentioned above.

No doubt Madden lacks in those areas.

[Hooe]

Re: Madden: What to Look for Out of the NFL Offseason

I don't think the disc space argument with last-gen products is a good route to go. This is a new and much bigger generation of games.

Minecraft is scheduled to release on PS4 and XBOX One this year, and when it drops it's still going to be a great game, and it's still going to have a disc footprint less than half a gigabyte.

On XBOX One, FIFA 14 is the highest-rated game by Metacritic score, and its install size is 8.7 GB.

On PS4, the two highest rated games by Metacritic score are Flower, coming in at 1.8 GB, and Rayman Legends, weighing in at 9 GB (it will most assuredly get a high score on XBOX One as well, and it's only 4.3 GB on that platform for reasons unbeknownst to me).

Point once again being that you don't need a massive amount of content to make a great game, even in this generation of consoles. There's absolutely no correlation. Game design and game mechanics matter foremost.

[TheBuddyHobbs]

Re: Madden: What to Look for Out of the NFL Offseason

Minecraft is scheduled to release on PS4 and XBOX One this year, and when it drops it's still going to be a great game, and it's still going to have a disc footprint less than half a gigabyte.

On XBOX One, FIFA 14 is the highest-rated game by Metacritic score, and its install size is 8.7 GB.

On PS4, the two highest rated games by Metacritic score are Flower, coming in at 1.8 GB, and Rayman Legends, weighing in at 9 GB (it will most assuredly get a high score on XBOX One as well, and it's only 4.3 GB on that platform for reasons unbeknownst to me).

Point once again being that you don't need a massive amount of content to make a great game, even in this generation of consoles. There's absolutely no correlation. Game design and game mechanics matter foremost.

But we are talking sports games here. You can't really compare games of completely different genres to sports. It just doesn't make sense. The difference between Fifa, Madden, and NBA are the consensuses is that Fifa and NBA are good games. Madden well is Madden. Of the sports games with low disc usage the only highly regarded one is Fifa. Does disc space mean better game? That will be personal opinions.

One thing we can look at are the bigger games different than last gen versions? Yes there's much more content. Are the smaller games much different than their last gen versions? Not really. That's the difference. I think fans want to see effort. They see the size differences and play both versions and just don't feel a lot different.

[piffbernd]

Madden needs to be torn apart and rebuilt for next gen. However, I doubt they will do much more than in the past due to everyone will still be buying it. If you look at install sizes: NBA2k 41.8 GB, BF4 33.9 GB, AC4 21.2 GB, Killzone 38.5 GB... then there's the EA games with Madden at 13.1 GB and FIFA at 9 GB. You can't tell me they were trying their hardest or pushed last gen's hardware to the max when they, on average, had a game size less than half of everyone else this time around. All they care about, and rightfully so, is maximizing shareholder profits. Until the bottom line is hit, I wouldn't expect the game for the next few years to look much different than today or for them to pay attention to the details like NBA2K has or MLB The Show has.

Wow nba 2k has 41.8 G. Soon your xbox one or playstation 4 will be full with only 500 G. I don' t understand EA they have so many feature they could put in without removing and later selling as new feature. There is many things the could use what nhl or fifa has.

[Hooe]

Re: Madden: What to Look for Out of the NFL Offseason

But we are talking sports games here. You can't really compare games of completely different genres to sports. It just doesn't make sense.

The original assertion from the first reply in this thread was that quality games, regardless of genre, were ones with larger install sizes. That's what I have been responding to. That's absolutely not true and I've provided a large number of counterexamples to that end. There's simply no correlation.

Madden absolutely would not be a better game, for example, if the game was 10 GB and then EA Tiburon added 40 GB of NFL Films footage accessible via some hypothetical digital recreation of the Pro Football Hall of Fame, accessible only after you achieve a certain Legacy score with a player in Connected Franchise mode. This hypothetical version of Madden would still be a 50 GB game, but it'd play no better than last year's version.

To repeat myself from earlier, the thing that changes by adding more content with specific regard to a sports game is atmosphere and presentation. More content adds more player faces, more player-specific animations, more stadiums, more lines of commentary, etc. These things are nice and can make a good game great, but they cannot make a bad game good. A good game must stand up foremost solely on the gameplay itself. With respect to Madden, the offensive line play, WR-DB interaction, defensive play calling AI, defensive run fits, and what not don't magically improve because the game has a bigger disc footprint. Seeing those gameplay mechanics addressed are the things that everyone in the simulation sports community wants, and those things are almost entirely code implementation and refactoring (admittedly with some supporting animation additions will be needed, yes, but that's a difference on a scale of megabytes, not gigabytes).

[Ovie832]

Re: Madden: What to Look for Out of the NFL Offseason

The original assertion from the first reply in this thread was that quality games, regardless of genre, were ones with larger install sizes. That's what I have been responding to. That's absolutely not true and I've provided a large number of counterexamples to that end. There's simply no correlation.

Madden absolutely would not be a better game, for example, if the game was 10 GB and then EA Tiburon added 40 GB of NFL Films footage accessible via some hypothetical digital recreation of the Pro Football Hall of Fame, accessible only after you achieve a certain Legacy score with a player in Connected Franchise mode. This hypothetical version of Madden would still be a 50 GB game, but it'd play no better than last year's version.

To repeat myself from earlier, the thing that changes by adding more content with specific regard to a sports game is atmosphere and presentation. More content adds more player faces, more player-specific animations, more stadiums, more lines of commentary, etc. These things are nice and can make a good game great, but they cannot make a bad game good. A good game must stand up foremost solely on the gameplay itself. With respect to Madden, the offensive line play, WR-DB interaction, defensive play calling AI, defensive run fits, and what not don't magically improve because the game has a bigger disc footprint. Seeing those gameplay mechanics addressed are the things that everyone in the simulation sports community wants, and those things are almost entirely code implementation and refactoring (admittedly with some supporting animation additions will be needed, yes, but that's a difference on a scale of megabytes, not gigabytes).

I understand what you are saying.. but would not adding more animations add to the disk size? take wr-db interaction for example... say they have 3 jamming animations at the line of scrimmage for each pairing of players (idk if they even have that much)... if they extended that animation to 15 or 20.. would data not go up? .... now imagine if each player and position was added animations by 10-20..etc. I am pretty sure disk size would increase.

I guess it just frustrates people to see 50 gb in one game.. but under 10 for an ea sports game. What would make madden a more quality game is more animations and fluidity. They can no longer use disk space as a crutch.