EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

Coogrfan! You are a hero - well done with this research work!

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk

[SageInfinite]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

Confident or desperate? Again according to VGChartz:


NFL 2k3 (North America) PS2 1.06 million units + XB .38 million units = 1.44 million units


ESPN NFL Football (aka NFL 2k4) PS2 .27 million units + XB .27 million total = .54 million


That's a 50% drop in sales from 2002 to 2003. Under those circumstances I can certainly understand why Sega felt they needed to roll the dice.

Do you think that dip in sales had anything to do with them trying to sort of "rebrand" the game by having "ESPN NFL Football" mostly on the cover instead letting people know it was an "NFL 2k" game?I could see how that could confusing to some people.

Also probably had to do with Madden 2004 being a huge hit.

[dkp23]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

When a 10/7 year old game is more fundamentally sound, authentic, and true to the sport than a game that is supposed to come out in 2014, then I think saying "it's subject to opinion" is a bit of a cop out. When it comes to football, there is a plethora of things that 1 game has, that the more recent game does not. That's not an opinion, that's a fact of the lack of football aspect from a recent NFL game, compared to a decade old game. When people can literally go back and point out all the things that 1 game has, that the other game does not, it being an "opinion" is out the door. It's as black and white as it gets. 1 game is as authentic as we ever had, and the other seems to be struggling to get there. I't been quite evident over the years.

I mean you can say you like not having pass interference called 95% of the time. That doesn't mean your preference is true to the game of football. You can say you like no double team tackling. That doesn't mean your preference is true to the game of football. There is a laundry list of things not done in Madden, that have been done 10 years ago in another game. There is a laundry list of things Madden has, but hasn't done right, that the other game has done right 10 years ago. With those things, I don't see how it can be subject to opinion, when the bottom line is NFL Football, and what happens on Sunday. The problem is that people have been trained to play Madden, not football. You can enjoy it for what it is, but it dam sure isn't an authentic representation of football. If it were, people like me wouldn't need to go back and play the "other" game.

Good post, also on the flip side of things. People focus on madden not being sim for what they dont have, but dont actually see the other side of why madden is not sim for things they DO have.

We all know madden lacks organic tackling and physics, lack of actually one of one battles that play out organically player vs player, inability for AI to break out of their zones when they dont need to stay in the zone, etc etc.

So what makes madden not a true simulation for things they do have?

People may not like this list because i believe people want full control

• The ability to hot route anyone at anytime and it will be 100% correct, in real life, there is always miscommunication, do you think a bad receiver will be able to get the hot route signal correct 100% of the time? no way, wrs run wrong routes all the time, but in madden they always run the right one. Assuming a qb could actually call five individual hot routes? come on, that is just dumb.
• on the other side, defensive hot routing, i find it stupid i can circle around my defensive players and start hot routing them to anything i want like how people circle around and put their DEs in purpose zones or yellow zones, not very realistic to me
• using the left stick to zig zag instead of actually using that true step or juke button. I thin most people would rather use the left stick because the left stick essentially allows a player to move without impacting the speed or momentum.
• the interception attempts by DBs in this game, the amount of interception animation triggering is not very realistic. Many situations, the dbs should be playing and knocking the ball, but in this game, they come from odd angles and jump like 5 feet in the air with the interception animation. The over the shoulder pick while battling a receiver is annoying as well, that type of int rarely happens in real games. If anything, the animation of knocking the ball down should trigger more instead of the catch animation. This would cut down on the unrealistic interception.

Many would find these bad to remove, but if you want a simulation football, the game shouldnt have the above because those things i mentioned make the game more arcadey.

[FBall Life]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

The basis for my opinion: I care about franchise mode more than anything else. A lack of double-team tackling doesn't bother me as much as AI teams drafting only quarterbacks, running backs, left tackles, and defensive ends in the first round, thus allowing me the user to "game" the draft because of predictable and poor programming. A lack of textbook proper run fills doesn't bother me as much as completely opaque player progression logic with zero feedback, thus inhibiting and/or completely stopping my ability to meaningfully develop talent on my roster. A lack of foot planting for all 22 players on the field doesn't bother me as much as a complete absence of franchise mode from a game altogether.

I'm less bothered by what the other games are doing that Madden isn't because there are things those old games do poorly / don't do at all which Madden does do. Madden plays well enough on the field for my personal tastes, warts and all, because its career mode options are in my opinion superior to anything else that is currently offered.

Finally, maybe I don't care about playing a 100% authentic simulation on the field. What's wrong with my opinion? It's a video game. I play video games to escape from reality and enjoy myself. If I want a simulation, I'll go outside and play pitch-and-catch with my brother.

That's like saying instead of playing a simulation shooter, join the military. Wanna play a simulation racing game? Go join NASCAR instead.

See how that sounds slightly unreasonable...

And if you're not wanting a simulation football game, fine. EA could make settings to accommodate you. Have casual and simulation settings so everyone wins. As for you being fine with an arcadey football game, in this community here at OS, you are undeniably in the minority.

[BezO]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

To much trying to understand EA's business for my taste. Consumers don't lack power, they just don't exercise it. Company's respond to stock holders because they speak with their wallet. They don't respect consumers because they don't speak with their wallet. They complain.

I don't know how many "sim" gamers their are, unhappy with Madden, but I'd bet they make up a larger portion of those sales than we care to believe. Look at the drastic reaction by EA when their sales were threatened the last time. They can't play that card any more. If folks spoke with their pockets instead of their fingers, maybe we'd have the game we want. Maybe those 2K programmers would be EA programmers. Who knows?

While that constituency might not be concerned, obviously EA is or else they wouldn't be doing interviews with online communities; they wouldn't get their feelings hurt by comments from online folks; they wouldn't invite people from online communities to come play their game early, so on and so forth. So yeah while that group doesn't care, it seems to me that people at tiburon care alot what internet communities think.

Cheap labor.

And of course they care. Where else would they get feedback?

Meeh. The problem I have with this argument is that it takes for granted that the NFL did not know the situation in the NFL football gaming market. That is, it takes for granted that the NFL did not know about the competition between the two development houses and how one house was the big name in the market and the other one needed to do something drastic to get market share.

Second, the Thomas' were quite clear that this would be the only time that the game would be priced this way, indicating that they were giving people a "superior product" to get market share.

Third, it points to the NFL not even looking at 2k5 the game itself and recognizing it as a great product.

So in the end, the argument seems to say, the NFL never even looked at the game, they just looked at the 20 tag and said our product has been "cheapened." I think the NFL knew it had a competitive gaming market. I think they knew this would be the only time 2k had the price this way.

Lastly, if something sells for a cheap price does that mean a product has been "cheapened" in the sense that it seems to be used here, namely, to degrade?

Ehhh one more point, why would the NFL care how much anyone sold the game for when they had already gotten paid? I'd venture to say EA cared more than the NFL did because they had to lower their price and lose money and it pissed them off to no end.

I think the big idea for the NFL and EA is that hey, let's cut this off.
NFL: If you guys pay us more than we can get from all of these other guys paying us to develop a game, we can make it exclusive.
EA: Our development house just got their a$$ beat and those a$$holes over there made us lower the price on our game to compete. We lost money on that. They must be destroyed at all cost.

And that last sentence is not far from verbatim. Six to seven months prior to the exclusive license being signed EA's Jeremy Strauser publicly stated, "We are going to destroy the competition." No one knew what he was talking about at that point.

Good car companies do this all the time, and for more than 1 year. Remember Hyundai being a "cheap" car. Their prices are now inline with Honda & Toyota. And they offer one of the best warranties to my knowledge.

[Hooe]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

That's like saying instead of paying a simulation shooter, join the military. Wanna play a simulation racing game? Go join NASCAR instead.

I didn't realize my leaving the house to toss a football with my brother was such a profound endeavor...? I don't have to join the military to shoot a gun or join a racing league to drive a car fast, either.

And if you're not wanting a simulation football game, fine. EA could make settings to accommodate you. Have casual and simulation settings so everyone wins. As for you being fine with an arcadey football game, in this community here at OS, you are undeniably in the minority.

I don't want Tiburon to change their current approach to a more arcade oriented approach because their current product is one that I enjoy. What exists right now, I am perfectly happy with. I obviously want to have justification to buy the next version, however, thus I want to see improvements year-over-year, particularly in franchise mode. To the extent that Tiburon can make their game more realistic by making improvements, I'm all for it.

Finally, I don't consider Madden an arcade game. It's pretty far removed from NFL Blitz.

[FBall Life]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

I didn't realize my leaving the house to toss a football with my brother was such a profound endeavor...? I don't have to join the military to shoot a gun or join a racing league to drive a car fast, either.



I don't want Tiburon to change their current approach to a more arcade oriented approach because their current product is one that I enjoy. What exists right now, I am perfectly happy with. I obviously want to have justification to buy the next version, however, thus I want to see improvements year-over-year, particularly in franchise mode. To the extent that Tiburon can make their game more realistic by making improvements, I'm all for it.

Finally, I don't consider Madden an arcade game. It's pretty far removed from NFL Blitz.

1) I can't leave the house right now, drive to my nearest pro stadium, walk onto the field and play 11 vs 11 NFL football in front of a crowd of 90,000. You have to compare one to one. Throwing the ball around in the yard with your brother is not an analog for a simulation of football.

2) You don't have to be Blitz to be an arcade football game. Madden has proven this over the last decade.

[Hooe]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

I can't leave the house right now, drive to my nearest pro stadium, walk onto the field and play 11 vs 11 NFL football in front of a crowd of 90,000. You have to compare one to one. Throwing the ball around in the yard with your brother is not an analog for a simulation of football.

True. However, you can play a several video games created with the explicit intent of emulating that experience in video game form, and Madden NFL is one of them. If Madden doesn't meet your quality standards, there are older games which attempted the same task. If those aren't good enough either, I guess you're out of luck? In which case I recommend you find something else to make you happy, given we all know the exclusivity situation.

You don't have to be Blitz to be an arcade football game. Madden has proven this over the last decade.

We'll agree to disagree over the classification of Madden. I will say that your opinion is at odds with the developers at this point as to where they classify the Madden, as well as the vast majority of the video game media and the vast majority of the video game playing demographic, all of whom consider consider Madden a simulation sports game. I personally offer more weight to the opinion which came straight from the horse's mouth, they know what they set out to make better than anyone.

[FBall Life]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

True. However, you can play a several video games created with the explicit intent of emulating that experience in video game form, and Madden NFL is one of them. If Madden doesn't meet your quality standards, there are older games which attempted the same task. If those aren't good enough either, I guess you're out of luck? In which case I recommend you find something else to make you happy, given we all know the exclusivity situation.



We'll agree to disagree over the classification of Madden. I will say that your opinion is at odds with the developers at this point as to where they classify the Madden, as well as the vast majority of the video game media and the vast majority of the video game playing demographic, all of whom consider consider Madden a simulation sports game. I personally offer more weight to the opinion which came straight from the horse's mouth, they know what they set out to make better than anyone.

1) Madden hasn't met the quality standard of this community in a very long time.

2) You said it yourself in your previous post when you said you didn't want Madden to change from it's Arcade approach. Therefore admitting it is an arcade representation of football.

3) Just because EA says Madden is a simulation doesn't make it so.

[Hooe]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

1) Madden hasn't met the quality standard of this community in a very long time.

I'm not sure since when you speak for the community at-large, but the way I see it OS hosts a few dozen Madden online leagues and the site's editorial staff has never scored the game below a 7/10 (with the exception of Madden NFL 06 on XBOX 360, which I did not purchase because I did not think it warranted such). Is Madden perfect? No. Is Madden an enjoyable and fun sports video game? According to this community, the answer has consistently been "yes".

2) You said it yourself in your previous post when you said you didn't want Madden to change from it's Arcade approach. Therefore admitting it is an arcade representation of football.

You are the one who keeps using the word "arcade". I never said that. I consider Madden to be a football video game which attempts to emulate the real-life NFL. Notice how I didn't use the word "arcade" there.

The context of my quote was that I care about how well franchise mode is executed moreso than seeing what happens on the field mirror real life 1:1. To repeat myself, things like foot planting don't matter to me if said football game with foot planting offers my games no context. I think Madden is plenty realistic right now, and I'd like to see it continue down this direction because I enjoy games with strategic depth. I'm fine where it is right now, however, and prefer Madden NFL to all other options available at this point.

3) Just because EA says Madden is a simulation doesn't make it so.

Ok? Who gets to decide that? You? What are the objective criteria for such a subjective analysis of a sports video game?

[FBall Life]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

I'm not sure since when you speak for the community at-large, but the way I see it OS hosts a few dozen Madden online leagues and the site's editorial staff has never scored the game below a 7/10 (with the exception of Madden NFL 06 on XBOX 360, which I did not purchase because I did not think it warranted such). Is Madden perfect? No. Is Madden an enjoyable and fun sports video game? According to this community, the answer has consistently been "yes".



You are the one who keeps using the word "arcade". I never said that. I consider Madden to be a football video game which attempts to emulate the real-life NFL. Notice how I didn't use the word "arcade" there.

The context of my quote was that I care about how well franchise mode is executed moreso than seeing what happens on the field mirror real life 1:1. To repeat myself, things like foot planting don't matter to me if said football game with foot planting offers my games no context. I think Madden is plenty realistic right now, and I'd like to see it continue down this direction because I enjoy games with strategic depth. I'm fine where it is right now, however, and prefer Madden NFL to all other options available at this point.



Ok? Who gets to decide that? You? What are the objective criteria for such a subjective analysis of a sports video game?

1) The tourney scene does not represent simulation football.

2) Your exact quote used the word arcade. I didn't put that word in your mouth. You did.

I don't want Tiburon to change their current approach to a more arcade oriented approach because their current product is one that I enjoy.

EDIT: I misread your quote, my apologies.

3) What do I base my criteria on? History, my friend. It isn't subjective. A decade old game was a better representation of simulation football than Madden 25.

[bucky60]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

And if you're not wanting a simulation football game, fine. EA could make settings to accommodate you. Have casual and simulation settings so everyone wins.

If Madden doesn't meet your quality standards, there are older games which attempted the same task. If those aren't good enough either, I guess you're out of luck? In which case I recommend you find something else to make you happy, given we all know the exclusivity situation.

things like foot planting don't matter to me if said football game with foot planting offers my games no context. I think Madden is plenty realistic right now

So Fball talks about having options to make everybody happy and you talk about - I'm happy and don't care, too bad for you. What happened to open minded? Or open minded as long as it's something you care about and the other person agrees with you? He talks about "options", and you talk about "I'm happy, too bad". At least, that's how you are coming across.

[Jerros]

Not sure if its been already said but, the simple truth of it is Madden will never ever be the game we want it to be. I thought it was amusing when Rex Dickson kept saying they are chasing simulation. Madden will NEVER EVER be a simulaition of football for one reason. It's core audience. There are way too many people who know nothing about football's true fundamentals and football logic. Let's keep something in mind. Madden is not only played by grown men but you have teenagers, pre-teens and kids that play it. It would be stupid business practice to alienate your core audience. Those very same people are the main reason Madden will not and can not change. They want the game to be somewhat arcadey. They want to be able to spam the same money plays over and over. They want the broken A.I. and broken penalty system. This is the sad truth of it. You will NEVER EVER get the Madden game you want. EA is not in the business of losing money. And as much as I hate to say it, we the gamers who are geared more towards simulation are not the majority. 2k was ahead or their time and they were bold to make a game geared more towards real football logic. I applaud them for that but I'm telling you, the core audience for Madden who supports the game as is does NOT want a sim. There are too many variables and risk for EA to suddenly make that leap. That isn't to say they won't add little things here and there that are sim-like. But overall, the game will remain mostly arcadey. Why do you think they gave us defense but added all the arcade button prompts. The Tiger Woods kicking arch? A real sim doesn't need that crap. But, they have to have something to counter balance things whenever they do add something too close to the real thing. It's sad but that is the bottomline, Unless some company is bold enough to make a generic game that can be customized and actually gives EA some competition, the game will NEVER change. We will only see bits and pieces. And whats even worse, the bits and pieces we're getting this year are from older games. Backbreaker camera angle on Defense. The power meter button that was originally used in 2k on offense, and the overall Defense theme that was the same EXACT them in 05 when the Ravens were the SB champs. Been there, done that.

[Hooe]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

A decade old game was a better representation of simulation football than Madden 25.

This is subjective, i.e. "based on personal feelings, tastes, or opinions".

It's your opinion that prior games were better options, and it's fine to hold, but just because and several other very vocal posters hold that view doesn't make the universal truth.

I really don't know how else to put it.

[FaceMask]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

With respect, I believe you're seriously mistaken here. It is my understanding that back when EA and Sega were both in the football game business the NFL/NFLPA did not get paid up front:

If this is correct (and DrJones was in a position to know since he actually worked for EA prior to "the Great Purge") that means that Sega wound up paying the NFL only a $1.99 per unit sold instead of $4.99. The notion that the NFL wouldn't care about this or the precedent it might set vis a vis their other business partners is fanciful at best.

I'm not familiar with DrJones, but him working for EA is a separate matter from what his involvement was--if any--in the drafting, negotiation, signing and keeping of the contract in question. If he wasn't involved in that capacity, then that would make him an outsider on the matter just like the rest of us.

Until we see the contract (and we won't), we can't assume that this per unit thing was ever a thing. Not that per unit deals are uncommon, it's just that there is a lack of proof that this was the deal in this particular matter with the NFL.

Extending onto that, there has never been a single known word from the NFL regarding having a problem with the price of NFL 2K5, so because of that this "NFL was mad about the price of 2K5" concept has to be considered conjecture. There is no proof. Without seeing the contract terms in black and white, there is no proof.

What's not conjecture is that EA had a big problem with the price of NFL 2K5 according to the Pecover documents.

So, no slight against DrJones, but I'm going to stick with what's been proven and what we can see in writing. It's the most logical option.

Again according to VGChartz:


NFL 2k3 (North America) PS2 1.06 million units + XB .38 million units = 1.44 million units


ESPN NFL Football (aka NFL 2k4) PS2 .27 million units + XB .27 million total = .54 million


That's a 62% drop in sales from 2002 to 2003. Under those circumstances I can certainly understand why Sega felt they needed to roll the dice.

Confident or desperate?

Both. Confident in their product, desperate for market share. It's not a new or uncommon circumstance.

Perhaps. The fact that it was an licensed NFL game for a mere $20 and it was released three weeks before Madden (July 20th vs Aug 9th) may have had little something to do with those numbers as well.

Not all 4.26 Million though. I believe they even sold over 1 Million copies past its initial sales period. That doesn't happen when a game is bad. $19.99 attracted more people, the game being a beast reeled in even more. Once enough people (including the media) declare a game hot, it goes viral. That's what happened with NFL 2K5. If the game sucked and that had become the consensus, it wouldn't have mattered what the price was.