Has anyone noticed the pre-play fidgets now?

[jmurphy31]

Re: Has anyone noticed the pre-play fidgets now?

Lol I don't make stuff up, it comes from Rex and the other dev team members in various podcasts and interviews. If you guys really want to get a pulse for this stuff and the direction this team is going long term, it takes time, but listen to the podcasts with Rex and Cam. Victor Lugo also talked about this subject but he left to work on a fighting game I believe, which is his true passion and where he came from with MMA.

Sim has said that everything we are wanting to see is coming and that also means the signature animations and momentum. Madden 15 is the first next gen title and I think we all understand that 25 was a port now. I expect an even bigger jump or as big from 15-16 as we are seeing with 15 from 25. Last year people compared what they were doing to what MLB the show did where the first game wasn't that impressive on ps3 and then the next one was a real next gen title. Madden is doing the same thing and will just keep building from here. Also keep in mind the 3 pillars of the Ignite engine, player sense, true player motion, and living worlds, each year those areas will be built on and improved and as other EA sports titles develop new tech like FIFA's emotion system, they can share that tech and add it to Madden too. That's one of the best parts about Ignite, it can be shared across titles allowing for quick implementation and as a result, a better game, faster than it would take without this shared tech.

I think they are heading in the right direction as well, but I don't think we will see the kind of jump we saw this year from 25. As you said, Madden 25 was basically a port, (Which was basically a bait and switch , if you ask me--after what they showed and said that it wasn't just a port) so that means the development team had basically 2 plus years to develop Madden 15. It will be a lot shorter cycle for 16.

[jpdavis82]

Re: Has anyone noticed the pre-play fidgets now?

I think they are heading in the right direction as well, but I don't think we will see the kind of jump we saw this year from 25. As you said, Madden 25 was basically a port, (Which was basically a bait and switch , if you ask me--after what they showed and said that it wasn't just a port) so that means the development team had basically 2 plus years to develop Madden 15. It will be a lot shorter cycle for 16.

Fwiw in the podcasts they said they will have more development time with 16 because 25 was released in November last year and so they were working with a shorter cycle. I think the reason we saw so much improvement quickly in 15 is because everyone was focused on primarily next gen Madden, not NCAA, gen 3 and next gen, like they were last year. Last year gen 3 Madden still had all the marketing and hype, this year it's all about gen 4 but I think gen 3 is going to have most of what gen 4 is getting this year except for the contextual awareness ai, graphics, and new animations of course.

[BezO]

Re: Has anyone noticed the pre-play fidgets now?

I think they are heading in the right direction as well, but I don't think we will see the kind of jump we saw this year from 25. As you said, Madden 25 was basically a port, (Which was basically a bait and switch , if you ask me--after what they showed and said that it wasn't just a port) so that means the development team had basically 2 plus years to develop Madden 15. It will be a lot shorter cycle for 16.

This is one of my problems with EA. Last gen, building the game from scratch (still not buying they rebuilt the game) was a problem. This generation, porting was a problem. They didn't capitalize on the advantages of either decision.

There's always a reason they're behind. Once, I'd like to hear about them taking advantage of something like being able to add so much to '15 because they ported 25.

And then they market the hell out of the game, of course, only to bash it themselves the next year.

I feel like no matter how good madden gets, it will always be years behind the other major sports, and thus, behind expectations of many.

I wish they would get back to direct interaction with the community. I remember Ian posting vids of upcoming improvements. It was nice knowing what was coming, when, and being able to give feedback. I can't knock them having a select group to interact with as I got to enjoy that for a couple of years, but that group can't speak for everyone.

[Jr.]

Re: Has anyone noticed the pre-play fidgets now?

Lol I don't make stuff up, it comes from Rex and the other dev team members in various podcasts and interviews. If you guys really want to get a pulse for this stuff and the direction this team is going long term, it takes time, but listen to the podcasts with Rex and Cam. Victor Lugo also talked about this subject but he left to work on a fighting game I believe, which is his true passion and where he came from with MMA.

Sim has said that everything we are wanting to see is coming and that also means the signature animations and momentum. Madden 15 is the first next gen title and I think we all understand that 25 was a port now. I expect an even bigger jump or as big from 15-16 as we are seeing with 15 from 25. Last year people compared what they were doing to what MLB the show did where the first game wasn't that impressive on ps3 and then the next one was a real next gen title. Madden is doing the same thing and will just keep building from here. Also keep in mind the 3 pillars of the Ignite engine, player sense, true player motion, and living worlds, each year those areas will be built on and improved and as other EA sports titles develop new tech like FIFA's emotion system, they can share that tech and add it to Madden too. That's one of the best parts about Ignite, it can be shared across titles allowing for quick implementation and as a result, a better game, faster than it would take without this shared tech.

That's good to hear. I've read and listened to most of the stuff that's been posted and never heard them say they were working on a new animation system, so I must have just missed it.

[wordtobigbird]

Re: Has anyone noticed the pre-play fidgets now?

Just look at the other EA Sports titles or just look at FIFA.

IMO, if FIFA can do it so can Madden and FIFA is making great strides but it seems like they are just a year or two ahead of Madden. When FIFA gets a feature Madden gets it the next year. When I see the living worlds in FIFA it makes me excited about how they translate to Madden.

One thing FIFA does great is procedural awareness and organic animations. For example if a CPU player is just standing there and I move my player into him he will put his arms out to shield me. Both players start hand fighting and shoving and all I've done is move my left stick into another player. This is what Madden needs with WRs/DBs. And it's obviously possible because FIFA Is already doing it.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Has anyone noticed the pre-play fidgets now?

There's always a reason they're behind. Once, I'd like to hear about them taking advantage of something like being able to add so much to '15 because they ported 25.

And then they market the hell out of the game, of course, only to bash it themselves the next year.

I feel like no matter how good madden gets, it will always be years behind the other major sports, and thus, behind expectations of many.

As hard as I can be on the developers of this title, this is actually not entirely their fault either. The concept of leaving things out is done on purpose just as much as it is a struggle for the dev team to implement it. This is what the EA marketing machine sees as the only way to get people to buy the NEXT game. When you are short sighted and lack creativity this is a sound practice. However, in a game like this, you will NEVER run out of things you can do to enhance it enough to make it compelling on a yearly basis - I don't care how much you do in a single year. This, of course, is not how they see it.

Take, for example, crimson's post from a couple of years back. He explained how the Tiburon crew had a meeting to discuss MLB the Show. The meeting resulted in the idea that The Show was actually TOO GOOD. Yes, you read that right... and thus it resulted in a lack of desire to buy the next iteration of the game since the current one was so compelling. One thing I will give Tiburon, when they are wrong about stuff, they don't half *** that. They go all the way, . Personally, I believe this line of thinking borders on complete insanity and is very, very sad - but that's just me.

In any event, this is the way of things, and it is never going to change. Madden will be the only NFL game for as long as EA exists. You either have to accept it and be willing to play a game that you feel is lacking, or you play nothing at all (with respect to NFL football games). For every seasoned gamer that has given up on Madden, 10 more younger gamers who don't know any better will slide in to take their place. If you are expecting any of this to change, you will be in for a lifetime of disappointment. 2004 changed the football gaming landscape forever. As long as EA is in business and Tiburon is developing the game, this will be the way it is. All you can do is hope for the best. It's not worth getting frustrated or angry over anymore because, quite frankly, it's not going to change anything.

[BezO]

Re: Has anyone noticed the pre-play fidgets now?

Take, for example, crimson's post from a couple of years back. He explained how the Tiburon crew had a meeting to discuss MLB the Show. The meeting resulted in the idea that The Show was actually TOO GOOD. Yes, you read that right... and thus it resulted in a lack of desire to buy the next iteration of the game since the current one was so compelling. One thing I will give Tiburon, when they are wrong about stuff, they don't half *** that. They go all the way, . Personally, I believe this line of thinking borders on complete insanity and is very, very sad - but that's just me.

Wow! I don't remember that. Wow!

I wonder if there's ANY validity to that. Did they at least see a decline in sales, or a lack of growth?

Wow!

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Has anyone noticed the pre-play fidgets now?

Wow! I don't remember that. Wow!

I wonder if there's ANY validity to that. Did they at least see a decline in sales, or a lack of growth?

Wow!

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...3&postcount=99

I urge you to go back and read some of his other posts. They are very insightful.

[johnnyg713]

Re: Has anyone noticed the pre-play fidgets now?

Just look at the other EA Sports titles or just look at FIFA.

IMO, if FIFA can do it so can Madden and FIFA is making great strides but it seems like they are just a year or two ahead of Madden. When FIFA gets a feature Madden gets it the next year. When I see the living worlds in FIFA it makes me excited about how they translate to Madden.

One thing FIFA does great is procedural awareness and organic animations. For example if a CPU player is just standing there and I move my player into him he will put his arms out to shield me. Both players start hand fighting and shoving and all I've done is move my left stick into another player. This is what Madden needs with WRs/DBs. And it's obviously possible because FIFA Is already doing it.

I think the issue is distinguishing when the jostling takes place and who does the jostling. In FIFA the animation happens with every player in any part of the field. My guess is it's tougher to get just WR/DBs to jostle in the situations they should be jostling. Not that I don't think it won't be in next years game. I just think it's harder for them to implement than people think.

[iamgramps]

Re: Has anyone noticed the pre-play fidgets now?

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...3&postcount=99

I urge you to go back and read some of his other posts. They are very insightful.

As much as I like Madden, I find this to be so true. I've always felt things were left out intentionally, just to have it marketed the next year. I do feel the team that makes Madden is talented; however, I do believe there are restrictions placed by those in charge. At the end of the day, it's a business and as long as money is being made, EA is happy.

[RACZILLA]

Re: Has anyone noticed the pre-play fidgets now?

Wow! I don't remember that. Wow!

I wonder if there's ANY validity to that. Did they at least see a decline in sales, or a lack of growth?

Wow!

FWIW, in my time working around sports games I can't think of a single example where someone discussed not implementing a feature to save it for the next year. I don't believe this is a real practice and it's one of those things I'd hear people say that I always found kind of funny.

When you look at whether or not individual titles are successful there are a lot of variables in addition to quality and what features are on the back of pack. Other games shipping in the same window, things that would affect how you put together your marketing budget/plan, etc.

The thing is, the majority of players don't purchase these games every single year no matter what. There are some years where a game goes above and beyond and captures more audience than usual. When that happens it's true it can be tough to get people to go back to the well the following year. But it tends to be tough regardless, so holding stuff back isn't in anyone's best interest.

I'm not disputing the anecdote BTW. Just not sure I buy it as a common marketing strategy for sports games.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Has anyone noticed the pre-play fidgets now?

FWIW, in my time working around sports games I can't think of a single example where someone discussed not implementing a feature to save it for the next year. I don't believe this is a real practice and it's one of those things I'd hear people say that I always found kind of funny.

When you look at whether or not individual titles are successful there are a lot of variables in addition to quality and what features are on the back of pack. Other games shipping in the same window, things that would affect how you put together your marketing budget/plan, etc.

The thing is, the majority of players don't purchase these games every single year no matter what. There are some years where a game goes above and beyond and captures more audience than usual. When that happens it's true it can be tough to get people to go back to the well the following year. But it tends to be tough regardless, so holding stuff back isn't in anyone's best interest.

I'm not disputing the anecdote BTW. Just not sure I buy it as a common marketing strategy for sports games.

Thanks for posting on this Rac. I would certainly hope that this does not happen, but from the outside looking in, it can certainly seem like this is the way of things at times.

The thing is, the majority of players don't purchase these games every single year no matter what

History doesn't seem to agree with your statement here. Madden sales blew up from its inception to 2004. That's 15 years and massive sales number increases year over year, so those stats would not really align with your statement. Most people who buy a yearly sports game will line up in droves to buy the next one if the previous version was really, really good. This is due to assuming that the current version was so well done, I can't wait to see what they do in the NEXT version. People won't buy the NEXT version of the game if they feel the development team will not do much to improve on it that following year.

[RACZILLA]

Re: Has anyone noticed the pre-play fidgets now?

Thanks for posting on this Rac. I would certainly hope that this does not happen, but from the outside looking in, it can certainly seem like this is the way of things at times.



History doesn't seem to agree with your statement here. Madden sales blew up from its inception to 2004. That's 15 years and massive sales number increases year over year, so those stats would not really align with your statement. Most people who buy a yearly sports game will line up in droves to buy the next one if the previous version was really, really good. This is due to assuming that the current version was so well done, I can't wait to see what they do in the NEXT version. People won't buy the NEXT version of the game if they feel the development team will not do much to improve on it that following year.

When it comes to year over year sales, it's true that sometimes there's growth year over year for a certain period of time.

What I'm saying is it's often not the exact same people buying the game each year. You're talking about a large pool of potential buyers and aren't always hitting the same people even when the year over year numbers are fairly consistent. A bit part of that is about what else is in the market at the same time.

It's also worth mentioning that across the course of some of these franchises that the market has changed a lot. It's pretty different from say that period 10 years ago that you mentioned.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Has anyone noticed the pre-play fidgets now?

When it comes to year over year sales, it's true that sometimes there's growth year over year for a certain period of time.

What I'm saying is it's often not the exact same people buying the game each year. You're talking about a large pool of potential buyers and aren't always hitting the same people even when the year over year numbers are fairly consistent. A bit part of that is about what else is in the market at the same time.

It's also worth mentioning that across the course of some of these franchises that the market has changed a lot. It's pretty different from say that period 10 years ago that you mentioned.

Valid points made, but I don't really agree with what I've bolded. Sports gamers are a very dedicated bunch. I don't have official stats to back this claim up mind you, but I would be willing to bet that a significantly large portion of the gamers who were buying madden/mlb/nba were repeat customers. I've been playing sports games since the dawn of time, and I know for myself, if I played a version of a game that was incredibly good, it would guarantee that I would purchase the NEXT version. Once I hear a developer claim that there isn't much to add to a game I would start steering clear of that developer and their products, because that is simply not close to a true statement. There is always going to be infinite amounts of things to add/enhance in ANY software - especially games.

As a consumer and a sports fanatic, if I play a sports game that I find incredibly good, I can guarantee you that I will be ordering the next year's title as soon as possible. Quality is what sells and creates the recurring revenue customer. With the incredible advancements in game technology this becomes more and more part of the equation. People gravitate to what mimics real life the closest - even young kids these days.

Like I said - once you show the consumer that you are not evolving/advancing your game significantly enough the following year, you will start losing those customers. The new customers come in when "word of mouth" spreads. Once again, quality being the driving force. Person A might know of person B who doesn't play said game. Person A then says, "dude, you HAVE to try this, it's absolutely incredible". I can tell you from first hand experience, this truly works. It also goes the other way, "Hey, did you get the new <said game="">(whatever game)?". "Yeah, it's the same crap, don't waste your money".</said>

[RACZILLA]

Re: Has anyone noticed the pre-play fidgets now?

Valid points made, but I don't really agree with what I've bolded. Sports gamers are a very dedicated bunch. I don't have official stats to back this claim up mind you, but I would be willing to bet that a significantly large portion of the gamers who were buying madden/mlb/nba were repeat customers. I've been playing sports games since the dawn of time, and I know for myself, if I played a version of a game that was incredibly good, it would guarantee that I would purchase the NEXT version. Once I hear a developer claim that there isn't much to add to a game I would start steering clear of that developer and their products, because that is simply not close to a true statement. There is always going to be infinite amounts of things to add/enhance in ANY software - especially games.

As a consumer and a sports fanatic, if I play a sports game that I find incredibly good, I can guarantee you that I will be ordering the next year's title as soon as possible. Quality is what sells and creates the recurring revenue customer. With the incredible advancements in game technology this becomes more and more part of the equation. People gravitate to what mimics real life the closest - even young kids these days.

Like I said - once you show the consumer that you are not evolving/advancing your game significantly enough the following year, you will start losing those customers. The new customers come in when "word of mouth" spreads. Once again, quality being the driving force. Person A might know of person B who doesn't play said game. Person A then says, "dude, you HAVE to try this, it's absolutely incredible". I can tell you from first hand experience, this truly works. It also goes the other way, "Hey, did you get the new <said game="">(whatever game)?". "Yeah, it's the same crap, don't waste your money".</said>

You make some good points. To provide a little more context, what I said about who buys year over year is only what I recall from being exposed to research about the purchasing habits of sports gamers. So my memory isn't perfect and even if it were it would be old data as I haven't worked on sports games in a few years. My best guess is that's still largely how it is.

I completely agree with what you're saying about players and how they influence others. There's gaming specific research that shows that in social groups of friends there are people who affect the decisions of their peers. So when I sometimes see the debates about whether or not the core football community matters to developers, my opinion is that while core fans may not be large as a %, they can have an impact on how a product (or even a brand) is perceived.

As far as what may cause someone to pass on a game there are all sorts of factors. There might be another title that's more attractive at the time. It could be that a game didn't meet expectations as far as how it's improved, as you said. One of the biggest factors IMO is that within social groups of gamers, people tend to play what their friends are playing. The value proposition these days is all about time. How much time am I going to put into a title and is it worth it?

Sports gaming has changed a lot over the last decade. The core audience has gotten older. Games have become more complex. The expectations for realism have been raised. There are also other genres that have snatched up younger gamers making it tougher to compete and bring new players into the fold.

Overall though I still think there's a lot of opportunity in sports gaming. We may not see days where there are 5-7 games for each sport again, but as long as there are players who are passionate and vocal there will also be developers (and even marketers!) out there trying to bring people what they want.