Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

Ultimately, regardless of who carries/provides or holds the truest statistics on individual players and where and how to get them and implement them; if EA/Tiburon refuses to use them, isn't the whole debate moot?

I miss Madden on PC: #1 reason, there would be a universal ratings editor within a week of release of the game...

[charter04]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

The way I understand it, AWR keeps players in correct positioning to make plays. It keeps a RB from drifting away from the line while pass blocking, allows CPU QB's to make smarter decisions, makes WR's run the correct route (not sure about in madden, but occasionally in previous NCAA games, low AWR WR's would run wrong routes). It keeps a defensive player in his assignment as well. Play a low AWR CB at FS and watch what happens. Occasionally, they will make mental mistakes and get beat deep. Low AWR OL will false start more often, low AWR DL will jump more often hopefully in Madden 15. Remember the passing cone in the past from like 2006 or something? That was all AWR. In NCAA, low AWR QB's on the road would be inconsistent, and pre-play, the controller would shake and you couldn't see play art.

Clint O also said with lower awe a OL player will hold more often and miss more assignments

[Hooe]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

Wtf does awareness actually do? It is even more of an issue when it comes to rookies because as someone pointed out, nerfing awareness is their favorite way to drop a player's overall.

A while back I did a bit of digging through posts in this forum by the Madden devs (when they used to post here) and old EA Sports blog posts to get definitions for all the ratings (along with another OS member, PocketScout; not sure if he still posts here anymore). With that in mind, here's what I've got for AWR:

AWR affects how well the CPU controls a player in the general case, how quickly a CPU player can react to an airborne football, how quickly a CPU player can react to a fumble, the decision of the CPU to fall on the ball vs scoop-and-score, and CPU blockers' identification of the correct defender to block. Since the introduction of the Infinity Engine, it also has some effect on all players - user or CPU controlled - with respect to player balance and footwork.

By-and-large, PRC replaced AWR as the relevant rating for intelligence checks in many defensive situations when it was introduced in Madden 07, such as recognizing a draw play, biting on playaction, biting on pump fakes, and general reaction time to a running play.

Until Tiburon decides to release a full guide for all the ratings in their game - which they absolutely should, there's so much noise with respect to what the ratings and the sliders in the game actually do - take the above for what you will. For what it's worth, I once had a WR on my team in the preseason of a Madden 13 CCM with an AWR of 20, and often times he wouldn't even make an attempt to catch a well-thrown ball as if he never saw it lol.

It's my opinion that at this point in Madden's life AWR is _way_ overvalued in the player's default OVR rating calculation, based on that information I gathered on what it does.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 15 - Top 10 Rookies

1. I know you cited raw grades on this forum before. If I recall you gave Drew Brees' arm strength of 2.4 or something similar. I confess that such a number is meaningless to me unless I know the methodology though. And that is what you cannot reveal. Trust me I get that. I am also aware that many times Donny makes comments that leave us shaking our heads. But there are other times where he cites secrets of the trade. By nature I am not a trusting person. I have no reason to believe you are lying, but nor do I have reason to trust you. So again, my questions revolve more around how the raw data is acquired/determined and I understand why you cannot make that public. But when you constantly bring up "I have data that supports it" I admittedly roll my eyes. I hope you understand my position; it is not meant to be hostile.

Believe what you will. Don't trust me, just look at the data. Do your own research and see what you find. Check your sources. That's what I would do.

2.This relates to the above answer. I have no idea who you are; your faq is vague in this area. Might I suggest citing your educational background or something to that effect on the site? To answer your question, sure I would trust the brain surgeon. I would not trust the guy on the internet who says he is a brain surgeon.

The site isn't supposed to be about me. It is supposed to be about the ratings. How I rate players is strictly confidential for obvious reasons, so being vague is to cover the intellectual property and those who gather and provide the primary source material. I myself am a slave to the game. I have two undergraduate degrees (one in Geography, one in History) and a Masters of Science in Geography. I was also a GA at Texas A&M University from 2008-2010. I specialized in spatial analysis in regards to advanced statistical analysis of geographic metadata. I coached high school football in Wisconsin for 2 years as a varsity WR/DB/OC coach for Eau Claire Regis High School. Under my coaching, I had two players reach the level of All-State Designation (Mike O'Connell and Jake Campbell). I worked for NFLDS as a Big Ten regional scout from 2005-2008 and Big 12 Regional Scout from 2008-2009. Played ball and ran track for two years in D3. Now, I am using my skills in data analysis as a business operations analyst in the DFW area. If you don't know what people like me do, you can look it up. Oh, and I still play football for a semi-pro team in Texas' largest semi-pro league, the TUFL. I was an All-Star in 2012 and 2014 as a Flex-TE/WR.

3. & 4. " I can't tell you if one came in at the very top, but it wouldn't surprise me"
"Based on the data I have, it has never happened"Beyond my confusion with those statements, I fully agree that Madden tends to overrate rookies. They tend to treat an average top 10 pick as a once in a decade talent.

I think I was referring to not sure if one rookie REALLY ever came in at the top of his game, ready to dominate, in any category (Maybe Bo Jackson???). What I can tell you is that the data I have since 1997, has never shown a rookie to be rated as consistently high as EA rates their rookies. So since 1997, according to the sources I have, it hasn't happened. Before that? Maybe, but if I am playing the odds, I doubt it.

5. I am a bit confused on this one. We are not talking about scouting prospects and the draft. I agree that teams should draft on traits; that is fairly clear cut to me. But it is not the same as rating players in a video game. In Madden we are dealing with known quantities (aside from rookies obviously). The issue to me is about getting those known quantities to add up. Generally speaking you can use production to grade a player in madden categories. PFF ratings for an OT in pass block could translate to PBK. A corner's grades in man coverage could translate to their MCV rating.

Are there problems? Absolutely. I read the series on QBs in focus and saw something striking. I looked at QB's numbers on out routes and sorted by average distance thrown. I don't remember the exact numbers but one number was significantly higher than the rest. My initial thought was wow this guy must have a canon of an arm. Turns out the QB was Russell Wilson. Not to say he has a weak arm, but I was surprised. I suspect that his high number was due to rollouts or bootlegs. Point is, it creates a problem. But generally it is adequate to look at production and tendencies and extrapolate individual traits.

So you are telling me that if a WR averages 20 YPC he should be rated very fast...despite the fact that he may have had that production via breaking tackles instead of outrunning everyone? Using production is like working backwards. Wouldn't it make more sense to quantify each part and THEN build the player and see if he produces? Ugh, I hate the word "production". Production is the result of 22 players with an infinite amount of possibilities and paths finally coming to a conclusion. I would rather quantify the parts of each player, add them all up, and see what the outcome is. This way, you aren't putting the cart before the horse. Besides, Madden uses traits to grade players, not production, via their ratings. Shouldn't we do the same thing for the sake of uniformity if anything?

And that is all I have to say about that.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

To make a case for the OL SPD/ACC ratings. I believe "high" speed/acc matter for the plays where you a have a pulling guard. Idk bout many of you guys, but I wouldn't want to have a 50 spd/40 acc pulling for me. That's just my thinking though.

And yet, when you quantify the data correctly, you will find starting OL who pull with SPD 10 points higher than their ACC.

Interesting....

[NDAlum]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

Clint O also said with lower awe a OL player will hold more often and miss more assignments

I hope it's true but I'm gonna bust out the "I will believe it when I see it!" Right now!


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[michiganfan8620]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

I fully understand that. What I am saying is that BLESTO/Pro Scouting doesn't release their official data until a full week AFTER the combine and it differs very widely from what the NFL produces on-site. Did NFL Network provide to you the "official" split times? Are they all published on NFL.com?

Nope.

The cool thing is that in my business, you know people...people who are willing to give you stuff for free. I get that data the same time the NFL releases it.

Also, it's kinda funny that NFL Network has him "officially" at a 4.43 with NO published split times, yet, I have his best time with all of the split times!

4.39
2.52
1.54

Or am I just making it all up knowing full well that NFLDS has the same numbers and they provide all of the scouting info for CBS Sports? Or did I just rip it off from NFLDS? Wouldn't they be mad at me for using their data? OH WAIT! They actually power and run my website so I don't have to pay for it! What awesome luck! I wonder how THAT happened?

You tell me. If you want more proof, I can prove to you that the NFL, Pro Scouting, and BLESTO have tried for the last 3 years to sue NFLDS for posting this information for FREE! Let me make a phone call and see if I can get a copy of some of that paperwork, as ridiculous as it is. It would be public knowledge, if they took it to court, which they didn't, probably knowing full-well that we had every right to post it even if we may have not paid the full 80k for it like 30 NFL teams do every year.

As for 2 teams not paying for them - I will give you a hint - one of them had a very large grudge with the NFL back in the 80s, and their former owner just recently passed away.

Once again, it comes down to who you know. I know some people who are pros in this business. Do you? Do you know that "The Godfather" himself was known for taking a full tenth off of "reported" 40 times just because a kid went to Texas? It's known in the scouting rings as the "Texas Tenth". Ever heard of it? I doubt it has even been published anywhere, but yet, most scouts have heard of it. Or am I making this stuff up too along with my "official" 40 times and split times?

So, either I am completely full of crap and am making up all this stuff as I am going along, OR I have some credibility that I am presenting to the community via realistic Madden ratings, with players rated the way scouts would rate them. It can't be both.

Last I knew, only 8 teams are involved with BLESTO. And for whatever reason, I feel like NFL.com, the official website of the NFL is correct on their numbers, not some privately ran website that gives information to CBS sports. Then explain this to me, Johnny Manziel is listed on NFL draft scout as running a 4.63. According to NFL.com, he ran a 4.68. According to CBS sports, who apparently gets their data from NFL draft scout, he ran an unofficial 4.63, unofficial 4.56 and official 4.68. What does that say?

[lgxjames]

Re: Madden NFL 15 - Top 10 Rookies

Nice to see Manziel not on there. Ratings are still way too high though.


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exactly, they haven't even played a game yet. I really don't like ratings before pre-season...Infact this is why ratings really don't fit gaming in 2014

But hey...That's just my opinion...

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

Last I knew, only 8 teams are involved with BLESTO. And for whatever reason, I feel like NFL.com, the official website of the NFL is correct on their numbers, not some privately ran website that gives information to CBS sports. Then explain this to me, Johnny Manziel is listed on NFL draft scout as running a 4.63. According to NFL.com, he ran a 4.68. According to CBS sports, who apparently gets their data from NFL draft scout, he ran an unofficial 4.63, unofficial 4.56 and official 4.68. What does that say?

National/Pro Scouting/BLESTO still provide the data! The teams still pay for it!

On NFLDS, Manziel is listed at 4.63.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/members/ratings/profile.php?pyid=119572

On CBS, he is also listed at 4.63.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1824921/johnny-manziel

Only NFL.com has him at 4.68.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/...iel?id=2543462


Yet, both CBS and NFLDS have the splits, which are the most important thing when determining the SPD and ACC ratings. Why doesn't NFL.com have them if they are "official"? Shouldn't they publish that information too considering how important it is???

Give me a break man. Whatever you saw on CBS saying 4.68 is NOT what I have linked on Manziel's full profile on CBS.

[michiganfan8620]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

http://cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfl-draft-scout/24454182/nfl-combine-johnny-manziel-runs-official-468-second-40?v=1&vc=1

This is where I got the manziel 40 on cbs. Now I'm just confused. And I feel like OL acc ratings are overdone just to make sure that pulling animations are done correctly. If Greg Robinson didn't have 87 acc, maybe he wouldn't pull as well as he should. And the ACC rating might have nothing to do with times, but rather involve how quickly a player gets to his specific top speed, and unrelated to players with different speeds. I don't know this, but it sort of makes sense. So a guy with 50 speed but 80 acc reaches the speed of 50 faster than someone with 50 speed and 50 acc, but that doesn't mean he's as good at accelerating as someone with 80 speed and 80 acc if you know what I'm saying.

[shylo3716]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

I would like to know which rating KB got robbed on to have him bug-eyed in the video.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

http://cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfl-d...nd-40?v=1&vc=1
This is where I got the manziel 40 on cbs. Now I'm just confused. And I feel like OL acc ratings are overdone just to make sure that pulling animations are done correctly. If Greg Robinson didn't have 87 acc, maybe he wouldn't pull as well as he should. And the ACC rating might have nothing to do with times, but rather involve how quickly a player gets to his specific top speed, and unrelated to players with different speeds. I don't know this, but it sort of makes sense. So a guy with 50 speed but 80 acc reaches the speed of 50 faster than someone with 50 speed and 50 acc, but that doesn't mean he's as good at accelerating as someone with 80 speed and 80 acc if you know what I'm saying.

That article was written before the official results were released by Pro Scouting/Nation/Blesto on 2/23/2014. Official results were sold to the teams a week afterward. Jeff obviously cited the NFL's times in an effort to publish quickly, hopefully knowing full-well that they would be revised in a week's time. I may have my boss take a look at it.

I can tell you exactly how it works based on my own analysis of the running mechanics (CM Hooe is making some more cutups for me right now, actually). The ACC rating in the game itself directly correlates to the initial velocity of the player, not the average acceleration. The SPD rating directly correlates to the maximum velocity at the 40 yard mark (of which all player models no matter the size, SPD, or ACC reach). Using split times, you can graph these out and determine their values. Then, scale them against the rest of the population.

[michiganfan8620]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

I would like to know which rating KB got robbed on to have him bug-eyed in the video.

If you are talking about Kelvin Benjamin, I'm guessing it is a lot of his ratings. Moore said Benjamin was the most difficult rookie to rate, since his initial grade wasn't that of a 1st rounder. Since size has no effect on OVR, he is probably one of the lowest rated guys in the 1st round. He's such an interesting prospect, not the fastest WR, inconsistent hands up to this point in his career, not a great route runner, but is difficult to stop in the red zone, makes difficult catches, and is tough to bring down in the open field. I'm guessing he has high jump, spectacular catch, and strength ratings, but lower speed, route running, catch, and AWR ratings.

[MajorSupreme]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

I don't wanna derail the conversation too much, but did we ever find out Blake's punt rating?

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[Rams_3]

The player models do look better. As a Rams fan I'm hyped to play with them. We're going to have a beast D-line again this year.