Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

[Hooe]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

Stronger no, even if they bench press the same it still would be much easier for the guard to move the 200lb CB than it would be to move the 300lb DT. Weight does mean something (in real life).

If their strength is the same, why wouldn't it mean the same thing? What would be the point of having the STR rating at all?

What you describe is also already captured by ratings, with the blocker's STR + RBS + RBF + IBL ratings against the defender's STR + BSH ratings. From Clint Oldenburg's blogs last year we know that STR affects the engagement duration of a block, RBS affects the blocker's ability to "lock up" a defender, RBF affects the blocker's ability to move a defender, and IBL affects the ability of the blocker to "pancake" a defender. These are checked against the defender's STR and BSH ratings to determine the success / fail of a block, the engagement time, and whether the defender gets flattened.

It would strike me that making weight an influencing factor in the ratings could potentially cause a whole lot of unnecessary confusion, and further the "ratings don't matter" conversation. If weight should be a factor, how much of a factor is it? How much does weight override ratings?

[24]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

So disheartening that HT/WT don't matter.


Sent from my iPhone 5

Very Disappointing to say the least. You would Hope that a 6'5 Receiver with 90 catching would have more of a redzone impact than a 5'11 Receiver with 90 catching.

[RogueHominid]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

It would strike me that making weight an influencing factor in the ratings could potentially cause a whole lot of unnecessary confusion, and further the "ratings don't matter" conversation. If weight should be a factor, how much of a factor is it? How much does weight override ratings?

To my mind, weight cannot and should not be a factor in Madden at present because taking weight into account would imply that the game is physics-based when in fact it is not.

I'm not bemoaning that fact, just observing that factoring in height and weight would be utterly inconsistent with the present philosophy of the game and would likely create more problems than solutions.

If Madden were to decide in the future to go with a physics-based approach, then height, weight, momentum, leverage, etc., all would be good things to consider, but as it stands they aren't relevant considerations.

[charter04]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

If their strength is the same, why wouldn't it mean the same thing? What would be the point of having the STR rating at all?



What you describe is also already captured by ratings, with the blocker's STR + RBS + RBF + IBL ratings against the defender's STR + BSH ratings. From Clint Oldenburg's blogs last year we know that STR affects the engagement duration of a block, RBS affects the blocker's ability to "lock up" a defender, RBF affects the blocker's ability to move a defender, and IBL affects the ability of the blocker to "pancake" a defender. These are checked against the defender's STR and BSH ratings to determine the success / fail of a block, the engagement time, and whether the defender gets flattened.



It would strike me that making weight an influencing factor in the ratings could potentially cause a whole lot of unnecessary confusion, and further the "ratings don't matter" conversation. If weight should be a factor, how much of a factor is it? How much does weight override ratings?

Clint said not that long ago that the run/pass strength and footwork don't do anything in played games.

[Robrain]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

I thought this was already pretty well known, that the ratings drive everything and that height / weight are purely cosmetic. I suppose not...?

Which to me makes some sense. Why should a 300-lb player with 99 STR be stronger than a 200-lb player with 99 STR? They both have 99 STR, that should mean the same thing across all players. If the 300-lb player should be stronger, how much stronger? It just strikes me as a unwieldy game balancing can of worms best left closed.

Running a 210 lb HB into a 300 lb mountain of man is still hitting a 300 lb mountain of man, regardless if that man is made of steel or jello.

We end up with scenarios where 5'9" / 203 lbs DuJuan Harris can stiff-arm a 350-lb nose tackle to the ground while running up the middle.

Or just play Superman:

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/PGd1tI6btUA?rel=0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

[Robrain]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

If their strength is the same, why wouldn't it mean the same thing? What would be the point of having the STR rating at all?

What you describe is also already captured by ratings, with the blocker's STR + RBS + RBF + IBL ratings against the defender's STR + BSH ratings. From Clint Oldenburg's blogs last year we know that STR affects the engagement duration of a block, RBS affects the blocker's ability to "lock up" a defender, RBF affects the blocker's ability to move a defender, and IBL affects the ability of the blocker to "pancake" a defender. These are checked against the defender's STR and BSH ratings to determine the success / fail of a block, the engagement time, and whether the defender gets flattened.

It would strike me that making weight an influencing factor in the ratings could potentially cause a whole lot of unnecessary confusion, and further the "ratings don't matter" conversation. If weight should be a factor, how much of a factor is it? How much does weight override ratings?

How much of a factor? Enough of a factor where the obvious scenarios simply don't play out. A small guy should not be able to run over a significantly larger guy. It should pass the eye test, it doesn't have to be overly complicated.

If I ran into Dontari Poe full speed in real life, I'd expect that 99.99% of the time, I'd fall flat on my back afterwards. Unless he was sleepwalking. Then I might have a 0.01% chance.

Because, you know, physics and other magical stuff.

[Hooe]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

Clint said not that long ago that the run/pass strength and footwork don't do anything in played games.

That's literally the exact opposite of what the released blogs said last year and also the exact opposite of what Ian Cummings posted on this forum in 2008. (if the URL doesn't work, copy-paste this:

http://www.operationsports.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2038462682&postcount=18

) Do you have a source for that?

If anything I would believe that the RBK / PBK ratings do nothing in played games, those being the legacy ratings.

More links: here here

EDIT: seems like there was never an OL blog released, I misremembered that. To that end the most recent info I have is that forum post by Ian Cummings.

[bcruise]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

That's literally the exact opposite of what the released blogs said last year and also the exact opposite of what Ian Cummings posted on this forum in 2008. (if the URL doesn't work, copy-paste this:

http://www.operationsports.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2038462682&postcount=18

) Do you have a source for that?

If anything I would believe that the RBK / PBK ratings do nothing in played games, those being the legacy ratings.

More links: here here

EDIT: seems like there was never an OL blog released, I misremembered that. To that end the most recent info I have is that forum post by Ian Cummings.

Back then when Ian was in charge, it probably did. But those ratings don't show up in the frontend anymore - they're more or less dummied out of everything except play now games. They definitely don't show up in CFM as they're untrainable. They're legacy, like you said.

[charter04]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

That's literally the exact opposite of what the released blogs said last year and also the exact opposite of what Ian Cummings posted on this forum in 2008. (if the URL doesn't work, copy-paste this:

http://www.operationsports.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2038462682&postcount=18

) Do you have a source for that?

If anything I would believe that the RBK / PBK ratings do nothing in played games, those being the legacy ratings.

More links: here here

EDIT: seems like there was never an OL blog released, I misremembered that. To that end the most recent info I have is that forum post by Ian Cummings.

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

@Trojan Man

I am of the same mind but while we are here on the topic of height and weight I will say a few things.

A 99STR OG who is 300+ pounds should roll over a light weight DT who is primarily a finesse rusher.

99STR vs 99STR shoud not matter until it becomes a battle of strength and so when and if mass were considered: the playee below weight would need to build up his force and get into a positiom that can leverage a bull rush.

Aaron Donald should get bowled over by heavier guards when he is unable to wuicjly slip by them. Donald is like Sapp. He will rely on his quickness and dip and his low center of gravity will make it challelnging for blockers to engage him effectively.

Effectivess is a key to utilizing your full strength potential and like the 40time it is not often a player will be engaged in a situation that can leverage his full strength capacity.

Weight of the object (player) vs strength of other player should consider positioning for leverage. A heavy set player who is off balance on one foot can more easily be bowled over by even a DB as he loses mass on one foot.

In the present state I can use guys like Mario Williams, Cam Wake, James Harrison and Brian Orakpo as 3-4DEs and they perform way better than the elite players that are built for this position within the scheme.

Those four guys still demand double teams and can usually just rip through a gaurd w finesse moves when put at DT in a Nickle of Dime package.

I do not support STR being a duration for Olinemen and something else for Dlinemen - it should not even be a duration timer for anyone as that o considered holding lol which it literally translates to: a lineman can stand straight up w no leverage on the edge and no driving of feet and just pose as an immovable oak tree as he posts up on the outside defender lol.

It will be good to see impact matter more than suctioning so we can see players stumble and lose balance off initial impact: it peeves me to see a weak, small HB stand up to charging rushers who have him outmatched in strength, power and size and although that same rusher just made the lineman look sily w his power move: he is now struggling to knock down / knock aside an inferior HB who has poor positioining and no momentum to withstand his force.

Anyhow, we play by the rules and either bend them to our will or bend our will to them.

Remember that a prototypical nose tackle can draw up to 3 blockers in real life and slice through dbl teams: all these blockers are strong on their own in the gym but in a condition like a Football trench: strength now fits a new context. You can grip a bar in the gym: you cannot grip a defenders jersey - a new acquired / learned technical strength is now required.

We also factor stamina into strength as a modifier.


Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk

[Hooe]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

Back then when Ian was in charge, it probably did. But those ratings don't show up in the frontend anymore - they're more or less dummied out of everything except play now games. They definitely don't show up in CFM as they're untrainable. They're legacy, like you said.

Yeah I was aware that CFM didn't include the ratings on XBOX 360 and PS4, I wasn't sure if that was also the case on XBOX One and PS4 because I haven't played CFM on the Gen-8 consoles yet.

Again, this gets at the thing I said before about Tiburon just needing to release a comprehensive ratings document which details exactly what each rating in the game does, how it's used, if it's ever ignored, etc. etc. I've done my best to try to gather up information on what the ratings do over the years but clearly that's not enough.

[Robrain]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

If anything I would believe that the RBK / PBK ratings do nothing in played games, those being the legacy ratings.

That wouldn't really make sense because in Madden 25's CFM mode the only stats for O-linemen that you can upgrade with XP points are their RBK, PBK, and IBK. There is no mechanism in place to upgrade their run-block-footwork or run-block-strength, etc. Why those stats are still in the game when they don't even show up on the standard player stats roster screen for CFM mode is far, FAR more confusing than implementing a functional system that takes into account each player's height and weight in the proper scenarios.

[Hooe]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

So by assumption from what this tweet says, the game operates differently in user-user games than user-CPU games? Odd, to say the least.

[bcruise]

Re: Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

Yeah I was aware that CFM didn't include the ratings on XBOX 360 and PS4, I wasn't sure if that was also the case on XBOX One and PS4 because I haven't played CFM on the Gen-8 consoles yet.

Again, this gets at the thing I said before about Tiburon just needing to release a comprehensive ratings document which details exactly what each rating in the game does, how it's used, if it's ever ignored, etc. etc. I've done my best to try to gather up information on what the ratings do over the years but clearly that's not enough.

Agreed - that's why I really enjoyed those blogs they did last year that showed how certain ratings interact with each other. Bookmarked all of them for future reference.

[charter04]

Madden NFL 15: Top Rookies

@Trojan Man

I am of the same mind but while we are here on the topic of height and weight I will say a few things.

A 99STR OG who is 300+ pounds should roll over a light weight DT who is primarily a finesse rusher.

99STR vs 99STR shoud not matter until it becomes a battle of strength and so when and if mass were considered: the playee below weight would need to build up his force and get into a positiom that can leverage a bull rush.

Aaron Donald should get bowled over by heavier guards when he is unable to wuicjly slip by them. Donald is like Sapp. He will rely on his quickness and dip and his low center of gravity will make it challelnging for blockers to engage him effectively.

Effectivess is a key to utilizing your full strength potential and like the 40time it is not often a player will be engaged in a situation that can leverage his full strength capacity.

Weight of the object (player) vs strength of other player should consider positioning for leverage. A heavy set player who is off balance on one foot can more easily be bowled over by even a DB as he loses mass on one foot.

In the present state I can use guys like Mario Williams, Cam Wake, James Harrison and Brian Orakpo as 3-4DEs and they perform way better than the elite players that are built for this position within the scheme.

Those four guys still demand double teams and can usually just rip through a gaurd w finesse moves when put at DT in a Nickle of Dime package.

I do not support STR being a duration for Olinemen and something else for Dlinemen - it should not even be a duration timer for anyone as that o considered holding lol which it literally translates to: a lineman can stand straight up w no leverage on the edge and no driving of feet and just pose as an immovable oak tree as he posts up on the outside defender lol.

It will be good to see impact matter more than suctioning so we can see players stumble and lose balance off initial impact: it peeves me to see a weak, small HB stand up to charging rushers who have him outmatched in strength, power and size and although that same rusher just made the lineman look sily w his power move: he is now struggling to knock down / knock aside an inferior HB who has poor positioining and no momentum to withstand his force.

Anyhow, we play by the rules and either bend them to our will or bend our will to them.

Remember that a prototypical nose tackle can draw up to 3 blockers in real life and slice through dbl teams: all these blockers are strong on their own in the gym but in a condition like a Football trench: strength now fits a new context. You can grip a bar in the gym: you cannot grip a defenders jersey - a new acquired / learned technical strength is now required.

We also factor stamina into strength as a modifier.


Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk

None of that will matter until there is a real physics engine running the game IMO