Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

[StefJoeHalt]

Re: Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

After watching this again..in the stream he is talking about the placement of the linebacker at the 9 tech..which has nothing to do with the "wide nine tech"..what we have is misunderstanding..Rex is speaking of the most "outside" player playing the outside shoulder which is an assignment..where is ur title references "the wide nine tech" concept..or at least that is what I believed.. He should have said the outside linebacker's assignment was to hold the edge..the reference to wide nine is either misspoken or he misunderstands what wide nine means..again we are talking two different things..but again these are things he should know..so I'm assuming he misspoke..but I did hear he reference using "wide nine" to combat outside runs which as I have stated before is extremely concerning..it's very concerning since they plan to "teach" this to effectively stop outside runs..
If anyone sees a team line up in wide nine..the first audible if 1st or 2nd down should be "run" and if they have mobile QB..audible to read option..

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

After watching this again..in the stream he is talking about the placement of the linebacker at the 9 tech..which has nothing to do with the "wide nine tech"..what we have is misunderstanding..Rex is speaking of the most "outside" player playing the outside shoulder which is an assignment..where is ur title references "the wide nine tech" concept..or at least that is what I believed.. He should have said the outside linebacker's assignment was to hold the edge..the reference to wide nine is either misspoken or he misunderstands what wide nine means..again we are talking two different things..but again these are things he should know..so I'm assuming he misspoke..but I did hear he reference using "wide nine" to combat outside runs which as I have stated before is extremely concerning..it's very concerning since they plan to "teach" this to effectively stop outside runs..
If anyone sees a team line up in wide nine..the first audible if 1st or 2nd down should be "run" and if they have mobile QB..audible to read option..

I was really hoping this was the case until I asked Clint about it. He told me that teryl austin said it is an outside run defense. I do not agree. Good post and I made a similar one because it's concerning to me if they are striving for authenticity and realism. This would be teaching people the wrong things.

[Wolverines05]

Re: Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

After watching this again..in the stream he is talking about the placement of the linebacker at the 9 tech..which has nothing to do with the "wide nine tech"..what we have is misunderstanding..Rex is speaking of the most "outside" player playing the outside shoulder which is an assignment..where is ur title references "the wide nine tech" concept..or at least that is what I believed.. He should have said the outside linebacker's assignment was to hold the edge..the reference to wide nine is either misspoken or he misunderstands what wide nine means..again we are talking two different things..but again these are things he should know..so I'm assuming he misspoke..but I did hear he reference using "wide nine" to combat outside runs which as I have stated before is extremely concerning..it's very concerning since they plan to "teach" this to effectively stop outside runs..
If anyone sees a team line up in wide nine..the first audible if 1st or 2nd down should be "run" and if they have mobile QB..audible to read option..

thats the problem. i dont think he misspoke. it seemed that madden's idea of wide 9 is much different than the real wide 9. i was under the impression that what i showed in the vid was their implementation of the wide 9. so yeah while the backer was lined up 9 technique, i think that, in madden, hes playing wide 9. of course, he also contains the edge... and doesnt rush upfield immediately. this doesnt exactly bode well for future designs.. but yeah i was just trying to articulate madden's version of wide 9.

[raidertiger]

Re: Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

I understood it as running outside is flawed in the wide 9. As in just sprinting outside the tackles. Looking at the video there's a massive lane in between the tackle and the guard. That to me shows that the wide 9 can be easily run on.

[wordtobigbird]

Re: Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

I understood it as running outside is flawed in the wide 9. As in just sprinting outside the tackles. Looking at the video there's a massive lane in between the tackle and the guard. That to me shows that the wide 9 can be easily run on.

This.

They were showing, like another poster mentioned, how outside defenders set the edge better. If the defenders are closer to the sideliner, wider, it should be harder to get to the sideline from the backfield. But if you take it through the C gap you should have easy money.

[shavane]

Well I have a small problem, or a few with the analysis. As an Eagles fan I saw just how one sided the wide 9 is. It is a Sack driven defensive line up, that has severe repercussions.

When the unmatched "dream team" stepped on the field with DL coach Jim Washburn, eagles fans were in store for one of the most prolific defenses they've seen since the late Jim Johnson. Washburn specialized in the Wide Nine, was the creator of the 100M dollar man Albert Haynesworth, and was the reason the Titans were halfway real event on defense. Washburns wide 9 lined up pass rushers outside to isolate Offensive Tackles. He then would use two defensive tackles, to do the same on guards, or the center. The analysis itself is correct, when it comes to the pass rush. However, this breakdown completely whiffed on all other factors of the wide 9.

The wide nine may absolutely be the worst defense you could possibly use against the run. I've watched it over and over as an eagles fan a while back. Teams caught onto this weakness and that's why the dream team became a nightmare. This wide 9 is completely neutered by running draw plays and attacking the middle of the defense. You must have spectacular and sure tackling LBs to make this defense even serviceable. Teams sudden learned, that this was our weakness. They would do a draw, let the DEs run passed the play, and focus downfield on the 2nd level, the linebackers. Once a guard, FB, or even offensive tackle gained that second level iT was all but over. The wide 9 isolates your linebackers, and makes them an easy target. The running lanes allocated by the wide nine, have been described as driving a school bus through them, there is no way around this.

The wide 9 also puts the DTs in harms way, by playing a numbers game,outnumbered by one. 3vs2, that math is never going to go the other way.

The wide 9 was picked apart and there are so many ways to defile it. For example, in shotgun you need a RB and TE. These will both offer chip blocks to slow the pass rush,neutralizing the fear of getting sacked, the DE is no longer gaining the outside shoulder, he's just staring into a double team, with absolutely no other options.

Screen plays absolutely devastated us in philly, those speed rushers would get 5 yards away from the designed run, before they even noticed what was happening. The real wide 9 is all about pass rush, so if the video game is going to implement a true wide 9, these flaws and weaknesses should be portrayed as said above. The DEs pin their ears back, and only focus on the QB. Everything else is a blur to them and they are completely oblivious to their surroundings.

That is my first problem with Maddens wide 9, and that analyst's interpretation of how practical it is.


My second problem is that the comparison of the wide 9 to the Nickel 3-3-5 is nothing short of baffling. A nickel 3-3-5 with rushing LBs is closer to a 5-2 or 5-1-5 than the wide 9. The wide 9 is a 4-3 based system, exclusively. The edge contain in the video, is realistic in a situation where there LB or DEs job is setting the edge, In the wide 9 the DEs job is to gain a clear path to the QB, not set the edge. Hence Washburn's firing. These two schemes have no similarities. The 3-3-5 will give you the 3-4 system that looks to draw double teams on your down linemen(hence the larger or anchorous players in the 3-4 DL) and allows your LBs to have 1on Zero matchup (or 1 on running back) to split into the backfield. The wide 9 however, does the exact opposite. The only matchup it gains, is the one on the edges, the players furthest outside of the middle, are taken advantage of, and puts the rest of the D at a disadvantage.

The wide 9 puts all pressure on your linebackers and safeties to overcompensate, the uselessness of the defensive ends. It makes the LBs play In space against Tight Ends and RBs near the line of scrimmage, advantage offense. You can almost literally play an 11 v 9 game with the ousting of the DE. Which is why the eagles had one of the worst defenses in the NFL in 2012, and why the dream team went crashing.

This scheme is a complete flash in the pan, and that pan should be thrown away. It's a scheme that will hurt itself more than the opposition, a scheme that will be portrayed inaccurately in madden, and a scheme that is easily taken advantage of. Although the analyst says it's their job to be purely pass rushers, he negates his own comparison by saying the LBs and DTs must make up for gap control, but why would the OLB (who is the wide 9 tech in video) contain the outside edge on a run play, if his goal is to reach the QB?

As I said. This video was inaccurate in comparison (3-3-5), true philosophy of the wide 9 (gaining containment), and failed to portray honesty about the wide 9(weaknesses). The wide 9 is nothing short of a 1 on 1 practice drill for DEs that have one responsibility, and gives their teammates an extra 3 burdens.

The Eagles had 50 sacks the first year of the wide 9, it was almost cut in half the year after. They are also ran on, for over 2000 yards that season, which was over 125 yards rushing against per game. My critique is more of the scheme itself obviously, my the reviewer also missed a few key things to discuss, and whiffed on the comparison of the two formations.

Outstanding analysis! When Jim came over from the Titans his scheme was more effective because he had a contract year motivated Haynesworth commanding a double and triple team at times and also LBers that could fill the huge running lanes to go with a secondary that could come up and support the run. The eagles had Casey Mattews, trying to fill the lanes and a secondary that was afraid to hit anything. It was almost silly watching my eagles give up 20+ yard runs on a consistent basis.

[shavane]

One other thing I noticed about these vids is that when they employ this wide nine coverage and this mush rush to contain the QB it seems a little overpowering. It looks like the DEs are setting the edge unrealistically, they don't always get to set the edge as hard as they do in the vids so I'm hoping it will be dictated more by ratings.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

I would love for Rex to come in here and clarify that they are NOT advocating using the wide 9 as a run defense. I have to believe they aren't because not all team playbooks employ it, and it is obviously NOT a run defense in any way, shape or form.

[Hooe]

Re: Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

Maybe I'm way off base here - and please don't hesitate to tell me if I am - but the way I understood the theory of the Lions' defense the past few years under former head coach Jim Schwartz was to come out the Wide 9 front to encourage the offense to funnel play back inside towards Stephen Tulloch, who's a larger-than-average Mike more than capable of taking on / shedding blocks and making one-on-one tackles. Not to mention Ndamukong Suh and Nick Fairley, who make for a particularly talented pair of interior defensive linemen.

Maybe that's not so much a dedicated "run defense" as much as "dictating to the offense what to do" and attempting to deal with the consequences of that decision with superior personnel making up for the obvious tactical disadvantage between the tackles. To that end the idea of using the Wide 9 as a base defense doesn't strike me as completely insane? I'm not sure it's something I'd ever do personally, though.

[shavane]

@CM Hooe - That's the point I made earlier if you have some beastly disruptive DTs like Suh and Fairley who can command double teams plus LBs that can tackle in space and take on runners than the wide 9 is more effective. If you don't have either of these and your 2 guards can handle the 2 DTs, this leaves your center and FB matched up on your LBer which will create huge running lanes.

I'm hoping that for the sake of this video and demonstration purposes the user controlled runner was taking the ball outside to demonstrate the DE disengaging from the T and making the play. I use the Eagles and if someone wants to run the wide 9 I am definitely cutting up field with McCoy. I pray that if the DE is on the outside shoulder like that he won't be able to magically warp and jump back inside to make the tackle.

[StefJoeHalt]

Re: Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

@CM Hooe - That's the point I made earlier if you have some beastly disruptive DTs like Suh and Fairley who can command double teams plus LBs that can tackle in space and take on runners than the wide 9 is more effective. If you don't have either of these and your 2 guards can handle the 2 DTs, this leaves your center and FB matched up on your LBer which will create huge running lanes.



I'm hoping that for the sake of this video and demonstration purposes the user controlled runner was taking the ball outside to demonstrate the DE disengaging from the T and making the play. I use the Eagles and if someone wants to run the wide 9 I am definitely cutting up field with McCoy. I pray that if the DE is on the outside shoulder like that he won't be able to magically warp and jump back inside to make the tackle.

I would kindly disagree..Lions D has been known to let up big runs over the past two years..issue is pro OC have learn to combat this formation defense..even with two big DT...this front is normally reserved for passing downs..

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

I enjoyed the lab session!

I was receptive to everything he said and this is one of our very own OS'ers - kudos on the spotlight!

I will add that I would like to see imoroved pursuit from bacskide/Will defenders. Instead of just immediately sitting, this defender should be in hot pursuit that way if the RB in this video decided to cut back betwen a center and guard or up between a guard and tackle: the Will would be hot on his tail to make the tackle.

I think too much pressure is put on the Sam and Force in Madden and would like to see exceptional Will dedenders, like Lavonte David, standout in making chase-down plays from the backside flow.

You did mention you will have a lab session on the force - I look forward to that albeit, as stated earler, I would also like to see enhanced logic in the effect of Pro-Playmaker performance demonstrated by the weakside flow defenders.

To be clear, I thought the commentator covered his session well in respect to comparing 15 : 25 and Madden to NFL.

■ Every NFL scenario also showed the Wide-9 employed against a spread look with a Single-back featured in the backfield.

■ If in Madden you have the interior linemen who can draw double teams: you will be closer to being one of the few teams that can also contain the inside run.

■ I like the LOS demonstration of how the flow side edge defender is engaging /disengaging with a logic closer to that of a Pro which lends authenticity and realism.
■ You did say the ballcarrier (beelined) to the sideline perpindicular to the LOS (refusing to cut-back or up) and paid for it as he continued to pursue the sideline: this is a common Madden gamer practice and it will be welcomed to have a user experience an impetus to his ball carrier vision.

In furtherance to the enhanced AI logic that is present for edge contain on the flow side: I would like to see enhanced interaction logic added to the other box support defenders: Mike, Inside Will in 3-4, and D-linemen who can hold up against a single block w a clean path to the ball, shed that block and then pursuit the ball w intent to tackle or misdirect the flow.

Godspeed to you in your next session, Wolverine, & Madden too in respect to enhancing Pro-logic interactions universally at the LOS and in coverage.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

I spent a significant amount of time researching use of the wide 9 as a run defense. I found nothing. I watched a bit of game film as well and I saw nothing that would insinuate that the wide 9 is strategic against running formations. What I DID find was plenty of documentation verifying the weaknesses of this formation against traps, draws, off tackle and power runs. I believe these weaknesses are obvious even to a football laymen. You can't really use the wide 9 against any savvy opponent either. Once they see that gap they are changing the play. Why run outside into it? The fixes to the defense need to be in assignments and pursuit (as LBz, PSUEagle and a few others have explained much better). I believe some of these fixes have been put into the game, but there are still some issues there. If we are attempting to obtain an authentic gameplay experience (which I believe Rex and his team are attempting to do), then Tiburon should not be advocating use of the wide 9 as a run defense. That being said, if you are a team who wishes to run a wide 9 scheme, that doesn't necessarily mean you should automatically be horrendous at stopping the run. Talent and player ability is a LARGE part of success in the NFL. Even with a scheme like the wide 9, it is my belief that if you DID have the proper personnel, you could still be effective defending the run.

Another thing to note, is that if you DID use a wide 9 formation in Madden, does the game account for the rushing angle of the wide DE and does he actually use that to his advantage assuming he's the proper fit for that position? I would hope it should. Simply having the formation in the game just to say it's there would be an insult to the intelligence of football gamers. If you are going to put it in the game, make sure it works like it should otherwise don't include it until it does.

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

Maybe [Wide-9 is] not so much a dedicated "run defense" as much as "dictating to the offense what to do" and attempting to deal with the consequences of that decision with superior personnel making up for the obvious tactical disadvantage between the tackles.

I am with you here - certain offensive sets will dictate the upperhand; conversely, the D can also dictate and now the Wide-9 will serve as an elevated hand vs Pass sets that offenses like to run outside on and b-line to the sideline without obstruction.

You would be at a great disadvantage to employ this vs wishbone/triple option (dive is money) personnel or vs a two-back backfield formation with the FB and RB or two RBs in splits - you are essentially defeated before the battle starts when matched vs a power run scheme ( Power I, Strong Power, Full House etc; ).

I use the Eagles and if someone wants to run the wide 9 I am definitely cutting up field with McCoy. I pray that if the DE is on the outside shoulder like that he won't be able to magically warp and jump back inside to make the tackle.

It is the Will/Weaksiweakside flow defender who is coming free on these Single-back Spread looks that will and should be a disruption on cutbacks and any change of direction play from outside to inside or east to west - west to east and vice versa.

I see and appreciate the value in this strategy because H2H gamers are slick w spread sets amd run dives or counters all day w/ OP success: this is a viable strategy to employ vs those tough to stop Shotgun Spread sets.

I look at it like the mush rush contains: QB contain already existed but the logic and interaction was futile and ia now enhanced to add efficacy.

Likewise, Wide-9 techniques already exist but do not serve well in respect to blockshedding interactions: the logic is now enhanced to add performance value in this area.

It is still Madden ball and this is a strategy within the game but I will not go as far as saying that they have the teachig all wrong: you, as the user, must still discern the appropriate personell and scheme to use it against and judge if you have the fits for the scheme.

Its a chess move but not one that allows you to cover 3 squares in one move: you will still get pawned in an ill-favored situation.

It is not clear yet but I get the impression that its narrow merits vs the run are being met but not exceeded.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk

[Mechcaniq]

If you look back @ the middle, it's well blocked for at least 5 yards are more. Can't wait!