NBA 2K15 Gameplay Video - Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks (IpodKingCarter)

[The 24th Letter]

Re: NBA 2K15 Gameplay Video - Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks (IpodKingCarter)

I think my idea of physics based gameplay is very different from what other people see it as. I remember watching a video of it in action (I really wish I could find it now, because it had me floored thinking of the possibilities), where the user would generate a figure, whether it be human-shaped, a set of three blocks stacked up, whatever. And that shape would have a set of rules governing its movement, balance, etc.. Then they would show how that figure moved and interacts with other objects in that little world. It wasn't really an animation that caused the figure to walk, but just the way it could based on its shape, appendages, and balance. If they tried to make a figure shaped like Barbie, for example, it would fall straight forward due its tiny feet and frontal weight distribution.



I realize I may not have explained that well lol. But that's what I think of when I think of the potential of physics-based sports games. No real "animations," but rather each player moving independently and dynamically based on a set of rules governing the world.



I really need to find that video. It explains it so much better than me lol.

Sounds interesting, but from how you describe it, it doesn't sound like something fitting for a game trying to simulate a sport...

Unlike the blocks or other objects, if we're attempting to recreate a human walking, there is going to need to be an animation built to reflect a humans movement...and animations inserted for how that human would interact with other humans.

I've heard you reference Backbreaker a lot when speaking on this...and what that game touted was dynamic animations determined by physics....the two go hand in hand in the gaming world...

Let me know if you ever find that video...

[Sundown]

NBA 2K15 Gameplay Video - Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks (IpodKingCarter)

Actually he is right. The best way to assess the AI is to play and AI vs AI game. Why you ask? Humans get in the way. We mess everything up with our constant switching on/off defenders. Being out of place defensively can cause a teammate to overcompensate in certain situations. Which is why I have always said that the best way to PLAY the game is Player Lock.



But he is right/

Not exactly. The AI was DESIGNED to be played primarily against by human defenders. Therefore, the best evaluation of the game is watching a human play against AI at his level.

Sure, ideally, I too would prefer an AI that just inherently and intuitively understands basketball like the best coaches and players do, but unfortunately, that's not the case. It seems to stalemate against itself, because it may not have been designed primarily to defeat itself. So we have to ask ourselves what's more important-- how the game will actually play and respond to us when we actually play-- or us being able to criticize the AI's root implementation academically if it falls short of our platonic ideals?

I'm going to side with the latter 10 out of 10 times, because that will be my actual experience with the game. But I can still hope that the AI approaches holistic, intuitive basketball understanding and IQ. That makes a lot more practical and logical sense to me than evaluating how it would play by setting it on terrible difficulty settings and then... um... not playing.

But dang, that clip was pretty bad. I just hope it's because of Default AI settings.

[turty11]

Re: NBA 2K15 Gameplay Video - Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks (IpodKingCarter)

in simplest of simple...

you CANNOT get an accurate judge of how the AI plays out with a user in the game.

said user is either 1. too good for the difficulty, 2. horrible at 2k, or 3. tryna get his cheese on, which is why all these early gameplay vids with people are terrible looking.

if im watching cpu vs cpu and its stagnant, i know it will still be stagnant when im vs the cpu. if the cpu cant look decent against itself, its going to be like im just playing blacktop when i get in there

[Colts18]

Re: NBA 2K15 Gameplay Video - Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks (IpodKingCarter)

Not exactly. The AI was DESIGNED to be played primarily against by human defenders. Therefore, the best evaluation of the game is watching a human play against AI at his level.

We just have to agree to disagree instead of repeating the same points over and over. Roster makers test their work by watching CPU vs CPU games. That is done for a reason. Humans get in the way. But you got it.

[Sundown]

Re: NBA 2K15 Gameplay Video - Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks (IpodKingCarter)

in simplest of simple...

you CANNOT get an accurate judge of how the AI plays out with a user in the game.

said user is either 1. too good for the difficulty, 2. horrible at 2k, or 3. tryna get his cheese on, which is why all these early gameplay vids with people are terrible looking.

if im watching cpu vs cpu and its stagnant, i know it will still be stagnant when im vs the cpu. if the cpu cant look decent against itself, its going to be like im just playing blacktop when i get in there

You also CANNOT accurately judge how the AI plays against a user WITHOUT a user in the game.

What a predicament. Maybe we should actually just play the thing.

[turty11]

Re: NBA 2K15 Gameplay Video - Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks (IpodKingCarter)

You also CANNOT accurately judge how the AI plays against a user WITHOUT a user in the game.

What a predicament. Maybe we should actually just play the thing.

actually you can. but i agree..just give us some actual dam gameplay 2k

[Sundown]

NBA 2K15 Gameplay Video - Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks (IpodKingCarter)

We just have to agree to disagree instead of repeating the same points over and over. Roster makers test their work by watching CPU vs CPU games. That is done for a reason. Humans get in the way. But you got it.

Oh, I don't disagree getting CPU to play well against the CPU is a good test and would likely translate to better human vs CPU play and that it's a good methodology for roster builders.

I'm just saying it's not the end all and be all of determining how it plays in person if the CPU assumes things that stalemates against itself when a human tends to "grease" things a bit by being more dynamic.

actually you can. but i agree..just give us some actual dam gameplay 2k

All I know is that what I watched is not indicative of my usual experience with the CPU at most playable levels, unless the difficulty is turned too low. I agree it's pretty bad though, and at least some of it will trickle into real gameplay if it's not just a case of Default Derp AI.

[ThaLiveKing]

AI looks horrible.

[JBulls]

Re: NBA 2K15 Gameplay Video - Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks (IpodKingCarter)

Sounds interesting, but from how you describe it, it doesn't sound like something fitting for a game trying to simulate a sport...

Unlike the blocks or other objects, if we're attempting to recreate a human walking, there is going to need to be an animation built to reflect a humans movement...and animations inserted for how that human would interact with other humans.

I've heard you reference Backbreaker a lot when speaking on this...and what that game touted was dynamic animations determined by physics....the two go hand in hand in the gaming world...

Let me know if you ever find that video...

Pretty sure this is what he's talking about

https://www.ted.com/talks/torsten_reil_studies_biology_to_make_animation?language=en#

Note that the year is 2003

Edit: Also note that he said this tech will at first likely be utilized by sports games, lol.

[El_Poopador]

Re: NBA 2K15 Gameplay Video - Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks (IpodKingCarter)

Pretty sure this is what he's talking about

https://www.ted.com/talks/torsten_reil_studies_biology_to_make_animation?language=en#

Note that the year is 2003

That's exactly what I was referring to lol. Might have been a different video, but exactly the same concept.

Sounds interesting, but from how you describe it, it doesn't sound like something fitting for a game trying to simulate a sport...

Unlike the blocks or other objects, if we're attempting to recreate a human walking, there is going to need to be an animation built to reflect a humans movement...and animations inserted for how that human would interact with other humans.

I've heard you reference Backbreaker a lot when speaking on this...and what that game touted was dynamic animations determined by physics....the two go hand in hand in the gaming world...

Let me know if you ever find that video...

I did reference it a lot with BackBreaker, since it was essentially their base. But I just imagine what could be done with that technology, and hope that somewhere, someone is working with it lol. It's not really animations in the sense that we're used to, but more of a movement engine (I'm sure you've heard me say that before too lol) that allows the shape to move whatever way is realistically possible within its set of rules. What we have is a series of motion captured events playing out as the character animates. Although there are so many animations that it may feel dynamic, every movement is essentially scripted, and the characters cannot move outside of those motions (barring an odd glitch like an arm spazzing out to the opposite side of their body, or something like that).

[JBulls]

Re: NBA 2K15 Gameplay Video - Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks (IpodKingCarter)

That's exactly what I was referring to lol. Might have been a different video, but exactly the same concept. I did reference it a lot with BackBreaker, since it was essentially their base. But I just imagine what could be done with that technology, and hope that somewhere, someone is working with it lol.

The company is http://www.naturalmotion.com/

Buy them out 2K!!! lol

NaturalMotion > EcoMotion

[Eman5805]

Re: NBA 2K15 Gameplay Video - Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks (IpodKingCarter)

They weren't able to get the rights to it. Still, they could've at least put "New York Knicks | Arena" to fill the missing logo on the floor. Better than nothing.

What's the story behind that? UFC and NHL 15 have got the rights, maybe NBA Live too, so, what's the bugaboo here?

Did the Garden make a deal with EA and EA only?

[JBulls]

Re: NBA 2K15 Gameplay Video - Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks (IpodKingCarter)

What's the story behind that? UFC and NHL 15 have got the rights, maybe NBA Live too, so, what's the bugaboo here?

Did the Garden make a deal with EA and EA only?

I'm not sure why 2K wasn't able also obtain a license but the fact is that EA has it and 2K doesn't unfortunately.

[KyotoCarl]

Re: NBA 2K15 Gameplay Video - Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks (IpodKingCarter)

Actually he is right. The best way to assess the AI is to play and AI vs AI game. Why you ask? Humans get in the way. We mess everything up with our constant switching on/off defenders. Being out of place defensively can cause a teammate to overcompensate in certain situations. Which is why I have always said that the best way to PLAY the game is Player Lock.

But he is right/

Wouldn't the true test be to see how the AI reacts to human interplay? Humans aren't as predictable as an AI is. We can be random and truly put the AI to the test.
That's why I don't think CPU vs CPU is the best way to test an AI.

[turty11]

Re: NBA 2K15 Gameplay Video - Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks (IpodKingCarter)

Wouldn't the true test be to see how the AI reacts to human interplay? Humans aren't as predictable as an AI is. We can be random and truly put the AI to the test.
That's why I don't think CPU vs CPU is the best way to test an AI.

cpu vs cpu is the simplest of interactions because its more predictable as you said. if the cpu cant handle the cpu, theres NO CHANCE, it can handle a human. thats why im saying i need to see something good out of cpu cpu games