Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you? - Operation Sports Forums

Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you?

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • trey31
    Pro
    • May 2012
    • 599

    #1

    Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you?

    Have you ever noticed over the years that Madden consistently "cheats" or becomes unstoppable at certain points during games? I finally figured out how and why.

    I've been testing Madden 08 on PC with mods and editors. There is a tag attached to every play in every playbook with a number, called PLYT (PLaY Tag). These tags are present in every playbook from Madden 04, 08, 09, 12, etc; they're on PS2, 360, PC and even PSP handheld game files. Most of these tags signify different types of run plays (dive, toss, end around, double reverse, QB sweep, sneak, etc) or what type of deep coverage is being used in a Defensive playbook (cover 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc).

    Madden's AI uses these tags to determine what play to use (to counter your play choice) during the play call selection screen, and then it uses these tags again during the play to actively defend against your play call.

    How do I know this?

    While editing a playbook I decided to change a few tags from the right tag to the wrong tag. For instance a Running play's PLYT was changed to a Pass PLYT. The QB still hands off the ball, the RB still runs, but the Defense didn't know what to do. All of the LBs and Safeties and CBs dropped into coverage as though it was a passing play, all the way up to the point where the RB crossed the LOS. This happened consistently during testing, so that rules out it just being a fluke.

    So there it is. The giant elephant in the room. Madden AI has no idea what is happening on the field at any given time, on any given play. It is simply reacting to the PLYT tag until the ball crosses the line of scrimmage. At that point it becomes rally time and all 11 defenders instantly begin to converge on the ball carrier.

    So there you go. Madden's AI is waaay more simplistic than most of us thought. A little tag in the code with nothing more than one simple number has been "Spy-gating" you for years.
    Last edited by trey31; 11-14-2014, 10:02 PM.
  • itsOTTOmatic
    Banned
    • Nov 2013
    • 133

    #2
    Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

    This makes sense, as a lot of times for example when I run a draw out of the shotgun, the CPU will set up in 3-4 or something. Like it knows I'm doing a running play when it shouldn't. Next play, still shotgun, but a pass. CPU will set up in nickel or dime. And it's not just guessing correctly or reading my sequences well or anything. It knows ahead of time.

    Comment

    • Dmanning2
      The Answer
      • Apr 2013
      • 434

      #3
      Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

      Yup and it gets real funky when I come out pass audible to a run and see the defense shift and move around to stop the run

      Comment

      • trey31
        Pro
        • May 2012
        • 599

        #4
        Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

        Anybody have a Madden 15 pbo for PS3 or 360 I could take a look at? I'd be very interested to see what kind of tags 15 has going on in it. I wonder if I could take a book and edit the PLYT tags and then save and re-wrap it like I used to with roster files...



        *pbo file would be an Offensive Playbook save file

        Comment

        • nosaints26
          Rookie
          • Aug 2008
          • 196

          #5
          Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

          So you're saying that the CPU defense essentially knows if you're calling a run or pass before you get to the LOS? If so, I have long suspected this of being true. Like previously said, run a draw play out of shotgun 4WR and you'd go up to the LOS only to find that they've called a 3-4 or some other formation effective against the run.

          Why, instead of this system, can't they just tie CPU playcalling to coaching attributes?

          Comment

          • ripp1p
            Rookie
            • Sep 2009
            • 400

            #6
            Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

            Easy fix when they r set up in 3-4 change play to pass and when in buckle change pass to run. I do that all the time

            Comment

            • JG80
              MVP
              • Dec 2013
              • 1847

              #7
              Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

              Originally posted by trey31
              Anybody have a Madden 15 pbo for PS3 or 360 I could take a look at? I'd be very interested to see what kind of tags 15 has going on in it. I wonder if I could take a book and edit the PLYT tags and then save and re-wrap it like I used to with roster files...



              *pbo file would be an Offensive Playbook save file
              Here you go!

              *360 file*
              Attached Files
              Geaux Tigahs

              Comment

              • trey31
                Pro
                • May 2012
                • 599

                #8
                Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

                Originally posted by nosaints26
                So you're saying that the CPU defense essentially knows if you're calling a run or pass before you get to the LOS? If so, I have long suspected this of being true. Like previously said, run a draw play out of shotgun 4WR and you'd go up to the LOS only to find that they've called a 3-4 or some other formation effective against the run.

                Why, instead of this system, can't they just tie CPU playcalling to coaching attributes?
                Actually what I'm saying isn't that the CPU "knows" if it is a run or pass, they have chosen their play based on exactly what type of play it is; eg a Reverse, a Double Reverse, a Toss, etc. Its not just that the CPU knows if its a run, the AI knows exactly what kind of run it is AND it immediately reacts to the play the moment the ball is snapped as well.


                And as far as the why? Thats simple, time and effort = money, and "they" know they can reuse the same code not only for several games, but for literally decades in some instances...


                Originally posted by JG80
                Here you go!

                *360 file*
                Thanks! Can you refresh my memory, do 360 files need to be opened in Horizon or something to decrypt them? Its been a while.

                Comment

                • nosaints26
                  Rookie
                  • Aug 2008
                  • 196

                  #9
                  Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

                  Originally posted by trey31
                  Actually what I'm saying isn't that the CPU "knows" if it is a run or pass, they have chosen their play based on exactly what type of play it is; eg a Reverse, a Double Reverse, a Toss, etc. Its not just that the CPU knows if its a run, the AI knows exactly what kind of run it is AND it immediately reacts to the play the moment the ball is snapped as well.
                  I see. I'll be awaiting further results from you about Madden 15.

                  Comment

                  • trey31
                    Pro
                    • May 2012
                    • 599

                    #10
                    Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

                    Originally posted by ripp1p
                    Easy fix when they r set up in 3-4 change play to pass and when in buckle change pass to run. I do that all the time
                    Sure there has always been ways around it, on PS2 I put TEs in my slot receiver positions in the depth chart so I could come out in a 4 wide formation pass play and then audible to an Ace Big run, but my whole thing is that we shouldn't have to do that.

                    They could easily write code to choose play calls based on either personnel packages or formations or even both, but instead they rely on code possibly from SNES or PS1 to just tell the AI the specific type of play called and how to react to it at the snap of the ball.

                    Comment

                    • trey31
                      Pro
                      • May 2012
                      • 599

                      #11
                      Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

                      Originally posted by nosaints26
                      I see. I'll be awaiting further results from you about Madden 15.
                      I'm going to see if I can swap pbo files between games like I did with the roster files on 12 and 25.

                      And I opened the Madden 15 Jets playbook, and sure enough I found the PLYT tag in the hex code. I haven't decrypted it yet, but its still there, just like every single other Madden game I've checked.

                      Comment

                      • JG80
                        MVP
                        • Dec 2013
                        • 1847

                        #12
                        Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

                        Originally posted by trey31
                        Thanks! Can you refresh my memory, do 360 files need to be opened in Horizon or something to decrypt them? Its been a while.

                        Yep, I use horizon. Modio can be used also but it isn't as stable IMO.


                        Sent from Nawlins.
                        Geaux Tigahs

                        Comment

                        • trey31
                          Pro
                          • May 2012
                          • 599

                          #13
                          Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

                          Originally posted by trey31
                          I'm going to see if I can swap pbo files between games like I did with the roster files on 12 and 25.
                          A straight swap most likely won't work. The code is, well, very different. But, the data could probably be analyzed to find similarities and play data could probably be extracted from or added to either, if one were so inclined. I'm afraid I'm not at this time, way too much other stuff going on.

                          Comment

                          • NimitsTexan
                            Banned
                            • Mar 2007
                            • 806

                            #14
                            Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

                            If true, this honestly does not surprise me.

                            Comment

                            • TheWood56
                              Rookie
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 431

                              #15
                              Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

                              I absolutely take your word for it with the specific testing you've done, but in regards to Madden 15 on the PS4, I'm almost certain the CPU selects their plays at random from the "suggestion" screen.

                              After every play you can see the play they selected vs the play you chose, and their plays are completely random. Example; on defense the CPU will have called a funky exotic zone blitz with DL dropping in coverage and CB's blitzing etc. vs my offensive play call of a deep passing concept which they subsequently get burned from. I've even seen the CPU call that renegade (?) play from a base defense where everyone blitzes bar the 2 CB's and 1 safety who play deep zones. That was called vs me at the goal line when I had a quick hitting pass play. They also regularly call QB spies and QB contain plays, even vs statue pocket QB's such as Manning and Brady. Makes no sense at all if they "know" your exact playcall.

                              Point being, their play calls are at random from the "suggestion" screen I'm 99% sure, as I routinely scroll through that to select my own plays some games, and I find a lot of the calls are really bad, and low and behold when you see the CPU's playcall, a lot of them look very familiar. Whilst saying all of that, the game most definitely does have some "cheat" mechanism built in which is very obvious at times, like when the CPU DB's are running and jumping your receivers routes two steps before they are, and with their heads turned too. It's like they "know". I think the play calling is at random and actually really bad because of that, but sense they can "see" your play at the LOS. That would explain why whenever you audible to run or pass they audible as well to a more suitable D. Calling plays in the huddle but, they've got NFI.

                              Comment

                              Working...